13 ms·

Why is gaps something that matters is what I would ask first. Seems to me increased complexity for no benefit.

spoiler 4y ago
I like having a small gap. It pleases me to use a Desktop environment that looks like it at least belongs in this decade. Edit: I realise some people are okay with the brutalist design due to it being the most efficient use of screen space possible, but my brain needs a "pleasing" environment, otherwise it affects my... Mood? I'm not quite sure what it is, but to not muddle the point, having a nice environment makes me more productive
- tekla 4y ago
  I have no idea what this means. What WM adds completely useless gaps between windows? Both Windows and MacOs do not such thing. How do gaps make a WM look like it belongs to this decade?
  - mo_42 4y ago
    If there are people who like gaps, it's not useless. It has value for them.
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    I’m not sure how we determine what looks like it belongs to this decade, but surely these legacy desktop environments don’t push the envelope or tell us much, really. I mean if we use Windows as a standard, the way to tell which decade we’re in is by counting the number of totally different UI styles we have, right?
  - mgaunard 4y ago
    Windows XP has round borders, there is no way it can tile without gaps.
  - spoiler 4y ago
    I'm not a designer, so I can't really tell you why the little bit of extra negative space helps. Maybe just the fact that a little bit of the background can bleed through makes it seem more modern, and its easier to distinguish focused windows. Default i3 just gives me like... 90iea vibes, but not in a nostalgic way but a regressive way. Maybe it's just a matter of different tastes.
gosukiwi 4y ago
OSS in a nutshell
- bee_rider 4y ago
  Indeed, some folks found the feature unnecessary at first, but somebody found an OK way to implement it, and eventually it became popular enough that they decided to merge it back into mainline. Little drama and everyone is happy in the end. Actually I think this is more like the OSS ideal.
hsbauauvhabzb 4y ago
Other than aesthetics, In a standard window manager titlebars and task bars often pad the top and bottom of the screen, I run without either so having borders still feels more natural in some respects.
angio 4y ago
With a good background contrast, it's easier to have windows stand out from each other. The default config with 0 gap and thin borders make it very hard to see which window is focused.
- jez 4y ago
  What about the gaps makes it more obvious which window is focused? I would have guessed that the gaps are the same for focused and non-focused windows.
  - britneybitch 4y ago
    If you're looking along a vertical split and you see: <window> <active-border-color> <window> it's not clear whether the border is "pointing" left or right. However if you see: <window> <active-border-color> <gap> <inactive-border-color> <window> It is clear the active border belongs to the left window.
- dfc 4y ago
  I use plain i3, with a border color for the focused window and a good contrasting indicator color. I always know what window is focused and where the next window will open. I have always assumed i3-gaps was just an aesthetic thing. How does the gap let you know what window is focused?
  - boomskats 4y ago
    Aesthetics matter in all-day ux. Gaps make content more legible and less fatiguing imho. It looks amazing against a #000 background on oled screens, for example. I've spent at least the last 6 years removing i3 and installing i3-gaps on all my new machines (and having to comment out gaps in my dotfiles/i3config while I do it). I didn't think I'd ever see this merge. This is awesome!
  - angio 4y ago
    if the colored gap is left/right of the gap i know the window left/right of the gap is the current one. without gap i would need to look for the other borders to understand which one is focused. i'm sure on a small (<20") screen this problem doesn't exist.
williamscales 4y ago
well, dwm includes them[0] as a patch so i’m guessing even the most hardcore of folks occasionally want them. these days with high resolution monitors it can be nice to have a background and some gaps / transparency. [0] https://dwm.suckless.org/patches/gaps/ https://dwm.suckless.org/patches/gaps/
cosban 4y ago
I wonder why you phrased your thoughts this way. The benefits are the additional options which were implemented in the fork. If there were no benefits then 1. no one would use this, which clearly isn't the case and 2. this merge wouldn't have occurred
rvz 4y ago
[flagged]
- _dain_ 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - rvz 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - _dain_ 4y ago
      I already refuted it
      - rvz 4y ago
        > refuted it Refuted what? Pretending to refute something isn't a refutation, especially when you're being very emotional and upset about it. Try again.
        ohazi 4y ago
        This is not how "to each their own" works. I don't care about the shovels that you sell to developers, and you shouldn't care that some people want to have a little fun with their desktop. You don't do that, and don't think it's a "real" use-case. Fine, we get it. You made that extremely clear several times. There is nothing to refute. We don't agree with you, we don't care about your opinion, and we're tired of hearing it.
        rvz 4y ago
        > This is not how "to each their own" works. Yes it is. > I don't care about the shovels that you sell to developers, and you shouldn't care that some people want to have a little fun with their desktop. You don't do that, and don't think it's a "real" use-case. Fine, we get it. You made that extremely clear several times. Clearly stating the reason why Desktop Linux support is eternally ill defined due to the moving parts of the desktop stack is the whole point of this, and no serious person would accept or cater support to a tiny minority of complaining Linux users to fix their highly tweaked non-standard desktop because they messed around with their dotfiles. > There is nothing to refute. We don't agree with you, we don't care about your opinion, and we're tired of hearing it. Who exactly is we? You don't speak for the one pretending to 'refute' my claims about the Linux Desktop ecosystem. They can explain why for themselves. My claims about the Linux Desktop in my comments remain irrefutable, an evergreen fact and still no rebuttal to it exists because it is the truth.
ohazi 4y ago
The benefit is that it looks cool and a lot of people seem to like it. e.g. see: https://www.reddit.com/r/unixporn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/unixporn/ This is not an invalid use-case. Not everybody wants to be 100% focused on productivity to the exclusion of absolutely everything else. If you want to have something as simple as a background image, the only way you're going to be able to see it when using a tiling window manager is with gaps or transparency. Small gaps is arguably less intrusive than transparency.
- rvz 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - ohazi 4y ago
    > To each to their own then, whilst I continue to sell shovels to developers and turn over another ten to twenty thousand dollars a month for only that. Okay?
  - _dain_ 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - rvz 4y ago
      There is no need to be so angry over the truth. Assuming you read the comment chain, it's quite simple, the use-cases for this are almost invisible, adds no benefit other than complexity and henceforth, explains why Linux desktop support is ill defined. So explaining the truth of not supporting complicated prehistoric contraptions is somehow upsetting to folks emotionally attached to their desktops? EDIT: Also with your own edits it really does show that the truth indeed hurts those that can't handle it when you are all over the place: >> What the fuck are you talking about? Getting very upset and angry. Causing one to sway into irrationality and reduced reading comprehension such as: >> But saying there's no use-case is crazy .. can you not read? There is 'little to no use-case' and it is almost invisible even if there is a use-case. Surely you can read that and know that it isn't absolute. Yet, I'm the one that can't read? Your reading comprehension is quite low when you're angry over a windowing manager. >> Look at your unhinged, boorish tone, uncouth bragging about how much money you make, your passionate and irrelevant denunciation of the Linux desktop, the deep personal offense you're taking to other people's UI preferences ... it's sheer projection. I gave the reason why Linux Desktop support is ill defined. It is the truth and clearly it is upsetting you. >> Do you have bipolar disorder or something? You really don't seem psychologically healthy. Yet it is not me that is swearing, showing anger and giving short abrasive responses without explanation? Those who don't have a refutation often try to divert the subject to attacking the claimant and to make it all about them. Oh dear.
Airblader 4y ago
Back when I used i3-gaps myself (yes, that time is behind me, sorry), I liked the visual clarity gaps provide. And from years of interacting with the community I know many people feel the same way. It just makes things feel less cluttered.
- jchw 4y ago
  Out of sheer curiosity, what kind of setup do you use today? I did briefly try i3-gaps myself but ultimately never daily drove it. (nowadays I run Sway, but with no gaps.)
  - Airblader 4y ago
    This will make some people sad, but I'm on Mac these days. I was using i3 until the very end though, and I do dearly miss proper window management. My shortcut setup now is an absolute mess. I technically did run i3-gaps because of some features, but not gaps. This was mostly because I actually mostly used a one window per workspace approach, and if more, then a tabbed layout, so no need for gaps there.
    - jchw 4y ago
      I'm not sad per-se. I mean I have a strong distaste for modern macOS, but it's not like it matters to me personally what anyone else runs. I'd just prefer to not run it myself. I will say though that I run Linux more than ever these days. I'd say the reason has more to do with Windows and macOS feeling like worse prospects than Linux actually improving as a desktop OS... That said, I'd like to take this moment to tangent. I really, really despise the rise of SOC2 theater. It has largely killed Linux workstations at startups, and I am pretty close to quitting out of the industry due to the amount of stress this has cost me.
    - _V_ 4y ago
      Honestly I ran Mac for 3 years or so and i3 was one of the reasons I went back to the Linux. That and the "war on hackers" that Apple seem to wage last few years also did not help (breaking uBlock in Safari, inability to permanently disable some system services without having to disable SIP and thus losing ApplePay+disk encryption to name a few)
_dain_ 4y ago
why do books and websites have margins between the text and the edge of the page? because a judicious amount of blank space between elements just looks nice and makes it easier to read. typographers and graphic designers think very hard about this stuff, it isn't useless. the same thing goes for desktop windows. a bit of space between them makes the interface less cramped. if you're staring at it for 12 hours a day it's nice not to have things so cramped and pushed up against one another. I'm kind of amazed at the sheer vehemence of the anti-gaps people. they always have to say "it's useless, I don't know why anyone would want it --" [proceeds to ignore all explanation for why it isn't useless and why people do want it] "-- therefore it shouldn't exist and the people who want it are decadent". I've never seen bizarre attitude to any other (optional!) UI feature. it reminds me of those 20th century modernists who denounced serifs on letters, or ornament on buildings. or idk puritans and icon-smashers or something. miserable tube-brained people.
Blikkentrekker 4y ago
IT makes windows stand out more from each other. They are in effect very thick borders that stand out. Do you believe there is no merit to being able to set border size for windows?
linsomniac 4y ago
At work I have a 43" "cheap" monitor that is more of a TV than a monitor. Meaning, at the very edges the backlight isn't behind the pixels at a desk viewing distance. i3+gaps allowed me to put a gap around the left, right, and bottom few pixels, so my text right at the edge wasn't unreadable.
weberer 4y ago
Remember old fashioned paper newspapers? Now imagine reading one that didn't have margins between blocks of paragraphs.
_V_ 4y ago
I look at that thing most of the day. I don't think it is that unbelievable that I'd like to look at something a little bit nicer than default i3. :shrug:

I like having a small gap. It pleases me to use a Desktop environment that looks like it at least belongs in this decade. Edit: I realise some people are okay with the brutalist design due to it being the most efficient use of screen space possible, but my brain needs a "pleasing" environment, otherwise it affects my... Mood? I'm not quite sure what it is, but to not muddle the point, having a nice environment makes me more productive

tekla 4y ago
I have no idea what this means. What WM adds completely useless gaps between windows? Both Windows and MacOs do not such thing. How do gaps make a WM look like it belongs to this decade?
- mo_42 4y ago
  If there are people who like gaps, it's not useless. It has value for them.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  I’m not sure how we determine what looks like it belongs to this decade, but surely these legacy desktop environments don’t push the envelope or tell us much, really. I mean if we use Windows as a standard, the way to tell which decade we’re in is by counting the number of totally different UI styles we have, right?
- mgaunard 4y ago
  Windows XP has round borders, there is no way it can tile without gaps.
- spoiler 4y ago
  I'm not a designer, so I can't really tell you why the little bit of extra negative space helps. Maybe just the fact that a little bit of the background can bleed through makes it seem more modern, and its easier to distinguish focused windows. Default i3 just gives me like... 90iea vibes, but not in a nostalgic way but a regressive way. Maybe it's just a matter of different tastes.

gosukiwi 4y ago

OSS in a nutshell

bee_rider 4y ago
Indeed, some folks found the feature unnecessary at first, but somebody found an OK way to implement it, and eventually it became popular enough that they decided to merge it back into mainline. Little drama and everyone is happy in the end. Actually I think this is more like the OSS ideal.

hsbauauvhabzb 4y ago

Other than aesthetics, In a standard window manager titlebars and task bars often pad the top and bottom of the screen, I run without either so having borders still feels more natural in some respects.

angio 4y ago

With a good background contrast, it's easier to have windows stand out from each other. The default config with 0 gap and thin borders make it very hard to see which window is focused.

jez 4y ago
What about the gaps makes it more obvious which window is focused? I would have guessed that the gaps are the same for focused and non-focused windows.
- britneybitch 4y ago
  If you're looking along a vertical split and you see: <window> <active-border-color> <window> it's not clear whether the border is "pointing" left or right. However if you see: <window> <active-border-color> <gap> <inactive-border-color> <window> It is clear the active border belongs to the left window.
dfc 4y ago
I use plain i3, with a border color for the focused window and a good contrasting indicator color. I always know what window is focused and where the next window will open. I have always assumed i3-gaps was just an aesthetic thing. How does the gap let you know what window is focused?
- boomskats 4y ago
  Aesthetics matter in all-day ux. Gaps make content more legible and less fatiguing imho. It looks amazing against a #000 background on oled screens, for example. I've spent at least the last 6 years removing i3 and installing i3-gaps on all my new machines (and having to comment out gaps in my dotfiles/i3config while I do it). I didn't think I'd ever see this merge. This is awesome!
- angio 4y ago
  if the colored gap is left/right of the gap i know the window left/right of the gap is the current one. without gap i would need to look for the other borders to understand which one is focused. i'm sure on a small (<20") screen this problem doesn't exist.

williamscales 4y ago

well, dwm includes them[0] as a patch so i’m guessing even the most hardcore of folks occasionally want them. these days with high resolution monitors it can be nice to have a background and some gaps / transparency. [0] https://dwm.suckless.org/patches/gaps/ https://dwm.suckless.org/patches/gaps/

cosban 4y ago

I wonder why you phrased your thoughts this way. The benefits are the additional options which were implemented in the fork. If there were no benefits then 1. no one would use this, which clearly isn't the case and 2. this merge wouldn't have occurred

rvz 4y ago

[flagged]

_dain_ 4y ago
[flagged]
- rvz 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - _dain_ 4y ago
    I already refuted it
    - rvz 4y ago
      > refuted it Refuted what? Pretending to refute something isn't a refutation, especially when you're being very emotional and upset about it. Try again.
      - ohazi 4y ago
        This is not how "to each their own" works. I don't care about the shovels that you sell to developers, and you shouldn't care that some people want to have a little fun with their desktop. You don't do that, and don't think it's a "real" use-case. Fine, we get it. You made that extremely clear several times. There is nothing to refute. We don't agree with you, we don't care about your opinion, and we're tired of hearing it.
        rvz 4y ago
        > This is not how "to each their own" works. Yes it is. > I don't care about the shovels that you sell to developers, and you shouldn't care that some people want to have a little fun with their desktop. You don't do that, and don't think it's a "real" use-case. Fine, we get it. You made that extremely clear several times. Clearly stating the reason why Desktop Linux support is eternally ill defined due to the moving parts of the desktop stack is the whole point of this, and no serious person would accept or cater support to a tiny minority of complaining Linux users to fix their highly tweaked non-standard desktop because they messed around with their dotfiles. > There is nothing to refute. We don't agree with you, we don't care about your opinion, and we're tired of hearing it. Who exactly is we? You don't speak for the one pretending to 'refute' my claims about the Linux Desktop ecosystem. They can explain why for themselves. My claims about the Linux Desktop in my comments remain irrefutable, an evergreen fact and still no rebuttal to it exists because it is the truth.

ohazi 4y ago

The benefit is that it looks cool and a lot of people seem to like it. e.g. see: https://www.reddit.com/r/unixporn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/unixporn/ This is not an invalid use-case. Not everybody wants to be 100% focused on productivity to the exclusion of absolutely everything else. If you want to have something as simple as a background image, the only way you're going to be able to see it when using a tiling window manager is with gaps or transparency. Small gaps is arguably less intrusive than transparency.

rvz 4y ago
[flagged]
- ohazi 4y ago
  > To each to their own then, whilst I continue to sell shovels to developers and turn over another ten to twenty thousand dollars a month for only that. Okay?
- _dain_ 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - rvz 4y ago
    There is no need to be so angry over the truth. Assuming you read the comment chain, it's quite simple, the use-cases for this are almost invisible, adds no benefit other than complexity and henceforth, explains why Linux desktop support is ill defined. So explaining the truth of not supporting complicated prehistoric contraptions is somehow upsetting to folks emotionally attached to their desktops? EDIT: Also with your own edits it really does show that the truth indeed hurts those that can't handle it when you are all over the place: >> What the fuck are you talking about? Getting very upset and angry. Causing one to sway into irrationality and reduced reading comprehension such as: >> But saying there's no use-case is crazy .. can you not read? There is 'little to no use-case' and it is almost invisible even if there is a use-case. Surely you can read that and know that it isn't absolute. Yet, I'm the one that can't read? Your reading comprehension is quite low when you're angry over a windowing manager. >> Look at your unhinged, boorish tone, uncouth bragging about how much money you make, your passionate and irrelevant denunciation of the Linux desktop, the deep personal offense you're taking to other people's UI preferences ... it's sheer projection. I gave the reason why Linux Desktop support is ill defined. It is the truth and clearly it is upsetting you. >> Do you have bipolar disorder or something? You really don't seem psychologically healthy. Yet it is not me that is swearing, showing anger and giving short abrasive responses without explanation? Those who don't have a refutation often try to divert the subject to attacking the claimant and to make it all about them. Oh dear.

Airblader 4y ago

Back when I used i3-gaps myself (yes, that time is behind me, sorry), I liked the visual clarity gaps provide. And from years of interacting with the community I know many people feel the same way. It just makes things feel less cluttered.

jchw 4y ago
Out of sheer curiosity, what kind of setup do you use today? I did briefly try i3-gaps myself but ultimately never daily drove it. (nowadays I run Sway, but with no gaps.)
- Airblader 4y ago
  This will make some people sad, but I'm on Mac these days. I was using i3 until the very end though, and I do dearly miss proper window management. My shortcut setup now is an absolute mess. I technically did run i3-gaps because of some features, but not gaps. This was mostly because I actually mostly used a one window per workspace approach, and if more, then a tabbed layout, so no need for gaps there.
  - jchw 4y ago
    I'm not sad per-se. I mean I have a strong distaste for modern macOS, but it's not like it matters to me personally what anyone else runs. I'd just prefer to not run it myself. I will say though that I run Linux more than ever these days. I'd say the reason has more to do with Windows and macOS feeling like worse prospects than Linux actually improving as a desktop OS... That said, I'd like to take this moment to tangent. I really, really despise the rise of SOC2 theater. It has largely killed Linux workstations at startups, and I am pretty close to quitting out of the industry due to the amount of stress this has cost me.
  - _V_ 4y ago
    Honestly I ran Mac for 3 years or so and i3 was one of the reasons I went back to the Linux. That and the "war on hackers" that Apple seem to wage last few years also did not help (breaking uBlock in Safari, inability to permanently disable some system services without having to disable SIP and thus losing ApplePay+disk encryption to name a few)

_dain_ 4y ago

why do books and websites have margins between the text and the edge of the page? because a judicious amount of blank space between elements just looks nice and makes it easier to read. typographers and graphic designers think very hard about this stuff, it isn't useless. the same thing goes for desktop windows. a bit of space between them makes the interface less cramped. if you're staring at it for 12 hours a day it's nice not to have things so cramped and pushed up against one another. I'm kind of amazed at the sheer vehemence of the anti-gaps people. they always have to say "it's useless, I don't know why anyone would want it --" [proceeds to ignore all explanation for why it isn't useless and why people do want it] "-- therefore it shouldn't exist and the people who want it are decadent". I've never seen bizarre attitude to any other (optional!) UI feature. it reminds me of those 20th century modernists who denounced serifs on letters, or ornament on buildings. or idk puritans and icon-smashers or something. miserable tube-brained people.

Blikkentrekker 4y ago

IT makes windows stand out more from each other. They are in effect very thick borders that stand out. Do you believe there is no merit to being able to set border size for windows?

linsomniac 4y ago

At work I have a 43" "cheap" monitor that is more of a TV than a monitor. Meaning, at the very edges the backlight isn't behind the pixels at a desk viewing distance. i3+gaps allowed me to put a gap around the left, right, and bottom few pixels, so my text right at the edge wasn't unreadable.

weberer 4y ago

Remember old fashioned paper newspapers? Now imagine reading one that didn't have margins between blocks of paragraphs.

_V_ 4y ago

I look at that thing most of the day. I don't think it is that unbelievable that I'd like to look at something a little bit nicer than default i3. :shrug: