3 ms·

On that same note, it's crazy to me how much energy and effort we spend on getting rid of what is potentially one of our most valuable resources: manure. Specif

by culi 4y ago

On that same note, it's crazy to me how much energy and effort we spend on getting rid of what is potentially one of our most valuable resources: manure. Specifically humanure In 18th century Japan for example, landlords often had rights to their tenants manure. "Night soil" became especially valuable as fertilizer prices grew. There have been fights over who is entitled to these biosolids. Even up into the 1980s much of Japan used special vacuum trucks to deliver night soil collections to treatment facilities Contrast that with the West where we spend billions of dollars on sewage systems that often cause ecological harm https://daily.jstor.org/a-history-of-human-waste-as-fertilizer/ https://daily.jstor.org/a-history-of-human-waste-as-fertiliz...

pfdietz 4y ago
That would be a great idea in a world without pathogens. Consider what would happen if there's a nasty prion that survives sewage treatment and then gets absorbed into crops.
- culi 4y ago
  Why would this same prion not make its way in our ocean or soils with the current sewage system set up? If the treatment fails, I don't see why dumping it in the oceans is safer. The food chain there is much more complex and therefore the prion would be exposed to many more possible hosts. In fact, prion biology shows that exposure from fish is a much greater concern than foodplants https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925443910002139 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092544391...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - pfdietz 4y ago
    You're asking why the current sewage system wouldn't be safer than the nightsoil system, where raw waste is applied directly to cropland. Or why applying processed sewage to cropland might be less safe than NOT applying the bioprocessed sewage to cropland. I think you can understand why the latter there could be safer, by increasing the distance between waste and food.
    - culi 4y ago
      that's not at all how nightsoil works lol
      - pfdietz 4y ago
        Untreated waste was used directly as fertilizer. Yes, it might be untreated sludge from holding tanks, not people directly shitting in the fields.
        culi 4y ago
        Wow interesting. I've read a lot about this topic and I've never once heard of any people in history that have practiced what your describing. Would love some links to read more The first step of making any compost-based fertilizer is always to mix the "greens" (high nitrogen material, in this case the poop) with browns (high carbon material such as hay, leaves, straw, etc). Cow manure and other manures based on pretty much any other animal will have had this done. Any composting toilet, any night soil transportation truck, etc will also do this. Compost toilets usually simply mix it with sawdust, peat moss, or coconut noir. This very simple process was used in pretty much every culture the world over. It's simple and extremely effective at neutralizing odors and changing the microbiology to aerobic conditions which can make it safe to handle in as little as a few weeks
        pfdietz 4y ago
        I find it very hard to believe you've read anything on this subject. Let's do the very first step of reading about it, consulting wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil "Night soil is a historically used euphemism for human excreta collected from cesspools, privies, pail closets, pit latrines, privy middens, septic tanks, etc. This material was removed from the immediate area, usually at night, by workers employed in this trade. Sometimes it could be transported out of towns and sold on as a fertilizer. Another definition is "untreated excreta transported without water (e.g. via containers or buckets)".[1] The term "night soil" is largely an outdated term, used in historical contexts. The modern term is "fecal sludge"; fecal sludge management is an ongoing challenge, particularly in developing countries.[2] Night soil was produced as a result of a sanitation system in areas without sewer systems or septic tanks. In this system of waste management, the human feces are collected without dilution with water." Note: UNTREATED. One might also ask, when was human waste first subject to treatment? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewage_treatment#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewage_treatment#History "It was not until the late 19th century that it became possible to treat the sewage by biologically decomposing the organic components through the use of microorganisms and removing the pollutants."
jagtstronaut 4y ago
It isn’t a concern to use human waste for non-food applications, and there are times that it actually is. With food or food that our food eats there is the risk of communicable disease. The problem from there is twofold 1. Generally we grow things for food and beauty, both of which are kind of ruined by human manure. 2. Most needs for manure come from animal farms and they usually have an excess of the animal manure and don’t really need anymore.
- culi 4y ago
  I think you underestimate how easy it is to neutralize the risks of human manure. In fact it's something you can even do in your own backyard. Compost toilets are gaining in popularity. Even federal agencies like the NPS are exploring implementing them https://www.nps.gov/articles/composting-toilets.htm https://www.nps.gov/articles/composting-toilets.htm In fact, I'd argue solutions like this would be an overall reduction in the risk of spreading communicable diseases. Sewers can still transfer diseases like this until the waste reaches treatment facilities. Treating it more locally reduces the overall amount of time available for diseases to grow and spread > 1. Generally we grow things for food and beauty, both of which are kind of ruined by human manure Cow manure is an excellent compost used all the time that you can even buy at a local gardening store. It's mostly a silly cultural "yucky" aversion that keeps us from utilizing safe, neutralized human manure in the same way > 2. Most needs for manure come from animal farms and they usually have an excess of the animal manure and don’t really need anymore. ...cities and towns have an excess of human manure that they don't really need anymore too lol
Spooky23 4y ago
We do. Sewer districts sell screened solids as fertilizer in many places.
dec0dedab0de 4y ago
A friend of mine works at a company that processes waste water. A few years ago he was telling me about how they were working on(or already have?) A way to extract nitrogen to sell.

by culi 4y ago

pfdietz 4y ago

That would be a great idea in a world without pathogens. Consider what would happen if there's a nasty prion that survives sewage treatment and then gets absorbed into crops.

culi 4y ago
Why would this same prion not make its way in our ocean or soils with the current sewage system set up? If the treatment fails, I don't see why dumping it in the oceans is safer. The food chain there is much more complex and therefore the prion would be exposed to many more possible hosts. In fact, prion biology shows that exposure from fish is a much greater concern than foodplants https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925443910002139 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092544391...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- pfdietz 4y ago
  You're asking why the current sewage system wouldn't be safer than the nightsoil system, where raw waste is applied directly to cropland. Or why applying processed sewage to cropland might be less safe than NOT applying the bioprocessed sewage to cropland. I think you can understand why the latter there could be safer, by increasing the distance between waste and food.
  - culi 4y ago
    that's not at all how nightsoil works lol
    - pfdietz 4y ago
      Untreated waste was used directly as fertilizer. Yes, it might be untreated sludge from holding tanks, not people directly shitting in the fields.
      - culi 4y ago
        Wow interesting. I've read a lot about this topic and I've never once heard of any people in history that have practiced what your describing. Would love some links to read more The first step of making any compost-based fertilizer is always to mix the "greens" (high nitrogen material, in this case the poop) with browns (high carbon material such as hay, leaves, straw, etc). Cow manure and other manures based on pretty much any other animal will have had this done. Any composting toilet, any night soil transportation truck, etc will also do this. Compost toilets usually simply mix it with sawdust, peat moss, or coconut noir. This very simple process was used in pretty much every culture the world over. It's simple and extremely effective at neutralizing odors and changing the microbiology to aerobic conditions which can make it safe to handle in as little as a few weeks
        pfdietz 4y ago
        I find it very hard to believe you've read anything on this subject. Let's do the very first step of reading about it, consulting wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil "Night soil is a historically used euphemism for human excreta collected from cesspools, privies, pail closets, pit latrines, privy middens, septic tanks, etc. This material was removed from the immediate area, usually at night, by workers employed in this trade. Sometimes it could be transported out of towns and sold on as a fertilizer. Another definition is "untreated excreta transported without water (e.g. via containers or buckets)".[1] The term "night soil" is largely an outdated term, used in historical contexts. The modern term is "fecal sludge"; fecal sludge management is an ongoing challenge, particularly in developing countries.[2] Night soil was produced as a result of a sanitation system in areas without sewer systems or septic tanks. In this system of waste management, the human feces are collected without dilution with water." Note: UNTREATED. One might also ask, when was human waste first subject to treatment? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewage_treatment#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewage_treatment#History "It was not until the late 19th century that it became possible to treat the sewage by biologically decomposing the organic components through the use of microorganisms and removing the pollutants."

jagtstronaut 4y ago

It isn’t a concern to use human waste for non-food applications, and there are times that it actually is. With food or food that our food eats there is the risk of communicable disease. The problem from there is twofold 1. Generally we grow things for food and beauty, both of which are kind of ruined by human manure. 2. Most needs for manure come from animal farms and they usually have an excess of the animal manure and don’t really need anymore.

culi 4y ago
I think you underestimate how easy it is to neutralize the risks of human manure. In fact it's something you can even do in your own backyard. Compost toilets are gaining in popularity. Even federal agencies like the NPS are exploring implementing them https://www.nps.gov/articles/composting-toilets.htm https://www.nps.gov/articles/composting-toilets.htm In fact, I'd argue solutions like this would be an overall reduction in the risk of spreading communicable diseases. Sewers can still transfer diseases like this until the waste reaches treatment facilities. Treating it more locally reduces the overall amount of time available for diseases to grow and spread > 1. Generally we grow things for food and beauty, both of which are kind of ruined by human manure Cow manure is an excellent compost used all the time that you can even buy at a local gardening store. It's mostly a silly cultural "yucky" aversion that keeps us from utilizing safe, neutralized human manure in the same way > 2. Most needs for manure come from animal farms and they usually have an excess of the animal manure and don’t really need anymore. ...cities and towns have an excess of human manure that they don't really need anymore too lol

Spooky23 4y ago

We do. Sewer districts sell screened solids as fertilizer in many places.

dec0dedab0de 4y ago

A friend of mine works at a company that processes waste water. A few years ago he was telling me about how they were working on(or already have?) A way to extract nitrogen to sell.