11 ms·

Low nutritional quality in vegetarian meat

72 points by achenet 4y ago

colordrops 4y ago
No one should be eating these as their main source of nutrients or protein for that matter. A proper plant based diet consists of less processed whole grains, legumes, and leafy vegetables.
wutheringh 4y ago
[flagged]
- urfullofsht 4y ago
  [dead]
- redsummer 4y ago
  Didn't this send her father crazy? He certainly seems to have aged rapidly in the last couple of years.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    I think the expérimental benzodiazepine withdrawal technique was problematic. Nobody should fuck around and experiment when it comes down to benzo or alcohol withdrawal.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- nikanj 4y ago
  How do you avoid scurvy on that diet? Or does she just flat out deny that vitamins are vitally important?
  - cdot2 4y ago
    My understanding is that you generally include organ mean which is high in vitamins.
  - Swizec 4y ago
    They've done this experiment! I wrote a summary years ago back when I was doing a 52papers challenge (that I failed, writing 52 academic paper reports in 52 weeks is grueling). https://swizec.com/blog/week-17-what-happens-when-you-only-eat-meat-for-a-year/ https://swizec.com/blog/week-17-what-happens-when-you-only-e... The tldr is that it works if you eat the whole animal. Enough essential nutrients in offal to keep you going.
  - PeterisP 4y ago
    Scurvy isn't necessarily a problem in an all-meat diet, as evidenced by historic cultures with extremely low plant food consumption (e.g. historic Coastal Inuit and Masai); however, those diets aren't like "western meat eating" e.g. cooked prime muscle, but include uncooked blood, organ meats, etc.
  - maxk42 4y ago
    Okay here we go.... The US RDI for vitamin C was produced not by studying hard what is necessary for the human body but by estimating the amount of vitamin C a small sample of people (N < 200) were getting from self-reported eating activities. They then took two standard deviations higher, rounded the result, and estimated people should be getting 60mg per day. Then in 1998, after lobbying from the orange juice industry and based on no new studies and zero additional information they decided to raise the recommendation 50% to 90mg. However, this is far in excess of the amount actually needed by the human body to ward off disease, which is around 10mg per day. [0]. In fact, eating fresh meat was a well-known cure for scurvy aboard sailing vessels until the early part of the 20th century since fresh meats do contain enough vitamin C to exceed this amount. The forms of vitamin C in meats are furthermore more bioavailable than vegetable sources of vitamin C and there's one more factor to consider: Although vitamin C plays a variety of roles in the human body, the majority of it is used for two purposes: the synthesis of collagen and the synthesis of l-carnitine. Which should strike an astute reader immediately as both being abundant in a carnivorous diet and therefore a person eating meat in abundance would have a much lower biological need for vitamin C to begin with. Furthermore, vitamin C is transported via the GLUT-4 transporter which implies it competes with glucose for absorption. A person on a ketogenic diet such as the lion diet will not have nearly as much glucose in their blood stream and may therefore absorb vitamin C more readily than someone on an omnivorous diet. All that said: no, carnivores do not experience scurvy. [0] https://www.washington.edu/news/2021/08/16/new-analysis-of-landmark-scurvy-study-leads-to-update-on-vitamin-c-needs/ https://www.washington.edu/news/2021/08/16/new-analysis-of-l...
- Valgrim 4y ago
  That doesn't give her any kind of credibility. Actually given that Jordan Peterson medical license is hanging by a thread, any claim of credibility by association to him gives her even less credency.
  - tsetsedfgyet 4y ago
    [flagged]
epups 4y ago
One thing I noticed is that you have to watch out for the protein content in vegetarian "meat", it is sometimes quite low. It varies a lot depending on which type though.
- doix 4y ago
  I think the amino acid profile is more important, because it's not really stated anywhere. You don't need to really worry about it with meat, but with non meat sources, you (allegedly?) need to start thinking about it. I am a degenerate that consumes a lot of Huel, and they claim to think about it but who knows if our understanding is good enough to properly model this stuff.
- windexh8er 4y ago
  High protein is not a diet requirement and studies have shown detriment to too much protein consumption. The protein craze is a marketing gimmick, yet most westerners are drawn in by products that advertise it and seem to be concerned about it even when they live a lifestyle that doesn't require increased protein consumption [0]. [0] https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speaking-of-health/are-you-getting-too-much-protein https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speak...
  - doix 4y ago
    > People who exercise regularly also have higher needs, about 1.1–1.5 grams per kilogram. People who regularly lift weights, or are training for a running or cycling event need 1.2–1.7 grams per kilogram That's a quote from your article, which matches what gym bros tell you that you need. It's actually pretty hard to get that much even if you eat meat whilst trying to eat only 2-3k calories.
    - windexh8er 4y ago
      I'm curious what your diet consists of? And how many people you know of in Western society that have been diagnosed with "protein deficiency". I'd wager a guess that the answer is zero. I don't eat red/white meat and I fulfill daily protein intake easily for my activity levels while staying under 2k cals. My diet is mostly fruits, veggies, nuts for lunch (sometimes cheeses, beans/lentils). If you think meat is where it's at for protein you'd be way off base. Red meat barely makes it into the top 10 if you're generalizing foods. At that rate you're well over 3k calories by eating nutritionally boring foods (spoiler: meat isn't very well rounded). Finally it's very easy to overestimate working out. But most people who are actually into fitness can also calculate where and how to get their protein correctly as well and know where it's most beneficial, for them, to get it from. I can tell you hardcore "gym bros" aren't all focusing on meat.
ausbah 4y ago
title is a little clickbaity. study only seems to talk about zinc and iron which i think while important is more telling than the vagueness of "low nutritional quality"
- rcme 4y ago
  Is it possible to have a diet with high nutritional quality without bio-available iron and zinc?
  - Retric 4y ago
    That’s a misleading question. Is Meat nutritious even though it lacks vitamin C? How nutritious food is really depends on context. Potatoes cover a larger percentage of our nutritious needs than Bananas. Bananas however cover a few things lacking in normal western diets so we think of them as nutritious.
    - rcme 4y ago
      I think it would be fair to say meat lacks nutrition if it were advertised as an orange substitute. That’s the “context” you’re talking about. Meat substitutes aren’t true substitutes for meat without bio-available iron.
      - BobbyJo 4y ago
        'Vegitarian Meat', if we are talking about it's role in a diet, is a flavor/texture substitute, not a nutritional substitute. If it wasn't about the flavor, there would be pretty much no reason to buy it. If you want to pretend it is a nutritional substitute for meat, people on average suffer much more from too much, as opposed to too little, of what meat has, so it's still not really a problem.
        rcme 4y ago
        I don't think you can really separate nutrition from flavor/texture. For instance, I cook dinner for my children every night. I want to cook tasty, flavorful food, but I also want my kids to receive adequate nutrition. Perhaps one day I'm at the store and see a meat substitute that's better for the environment. I think it's important to understand that, nutritionally, the substitute is deficient compared to meat. This is a very common thing that comes up with nut "milks." You can find an endless stream of graphs and charts that highlight how much better nut "milks" are compared to cows milk. However, the graphs never ever ever include a comparison of the nutrient content. Sure, you can say adults get too much of everything, but the same is not true for children. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends 2-3 8oz cups of milk a day for children under 5. It would be a equivalent to give your children nut "milk" instead.
Nursie 4y ago
So you need heme to have bioavailable iron… there is plant-based heme in some of the ‘meats’ these days. Seems like it might be good to increase use of that.
User23 4y ago
I really don’t understand eating vegetarian, presumably for well-being, and then making fake “meat” food science experiments a major part of your diet. I have nothing against people choosing to eat vegetarian either. I’m not vegetarian, but I abstain from meat from time to time so sometimes I eat vegetarian. And when I do I’d much rather have something like delicious traditionally vegetarian Indian food than the output of some novel process chemistry reactor.
- carstenhag 4y ago
  Because many vegans (including me) like meat taste, but don't want to cause unnecessary suffering and/or kill animals.
  - ihatepython 4y ago
    Are there many vegans who do want to cause unnecessary suffering and/or kill? The guy who killed those 4 students in Moscow ID is a vegan. Was wondering if there was any correlation.
    - someNameIG 4y ago
      There are very many terrible people who eat meat, what's your point?
      - ihatepython 4y ago
        Just wondering if vegans are more or less likely to be murderers compared to non-vegans, because perhaps vegans are more ideological and less flexible, maybe there's a correlation
- throwawaylinux 4y ago
  > I really don’t understand eating vegetarian, presumably for well-being, and then making fake “meat” food science experiments a major part of your diet. Okay, thanks for the data point. Have you done anything to try to understand it? Talked to people who do this and ask them about it, for example?
comex 4y ago
On a related note, I’ve noticed that vegetarian jerky and other vegetarian meat-product substitutes have a slightly lower protein-to-calorie ratio than the originals. Not a big difference, but consistent.
spicymaki 4y ago
Vegetarians should not be getting the majority their nutrients from vegetarian meat. These products are not even designed with that goal in mind. Vegetarians should have a varied plant based diet and supplement if necessary.
paulcole 4y ago
> A diet largely made up of plant-based foods such as root vegetables, pulses, fruit and vegetables generally has a low climate impact and is also associated with health benefits such as a reduced risk of age-related diabetes and cardiovascular disease, as has been shown in several large studies. Sounds awful. Personally this is a risk I’m willing to take.
UglyToad 4y ago
Repeat after me, no one eats a burger believing it's a health food. Now write it a hundred times and maybe we can stop this circular discussion.
- reedjosh 4y ago
  I think a Burger is healthy if the ingredients are of sufficient quality. The buns and perhaps sugary sauces are the least healthy bits.
  - UglyToad 4y ago
    Agreex, if the burger patty is just prime ground beef or black beans and quinoa or something it's probably ok. But people like to eat food that is nice sometimes and so it's everything else, the mayo, the ketchup, the toppings, the bun, the fries, that are part of the mise en place of the burger experience and the same goes for other vegetarian meat substitutes, e.g. sausages or bacon.
    - throw827474737 4y ago
      Agreed, and that is also totally ok I'd claim! :)
- alphazard 4y ago
  The beef itself is arguably one of the healthiest foods available. The burger ensemble with the fries and buns isn't great. The whole point of vegetarian burgers is so people following those diets can fit into social settings where others are eating burgers. Most vegetarians are such for ethical reasons, knowing it's harder to get adequate nutrition, and planning accordingly. Hopefully they aren't eating vegeburgers and expecting it to have the same nutrient profile as a real burger.
  - vjerancrnjak 4y ago
    One ingredient is neither healthy or unhealthy. It's only diet/lifestyle that is healthy. A healthy diet can include a variety of ingredients. Associating a particular food with health or illness is an incorrect thing to do, at least I think so.
Khelavaster 4y ago
Iron is not a proxy for nutritional quality.... Amino acid and fatty acid compositions should be directly compared between meat/eggs raised with access to a complex outdoor supplemental food biome vs outdoor-raised industrially fed meat/eggs vs indoor raised (and also grass fed vs grainfed vs grain finished beef/dairy)
theptip 4y ago
I can’t see any obvious cynical conflicts of interest here in the funding sources, but I don’t know the Bertebos Foundation. While I’m aware of some meat industry campaigns to dissuade people from eating vegetarian alternatives, this study seems plausibly good-faith. The object level claim is “some of these products contain phytates” (aka anti-nutrients). Not my field but the first few search results suggest this is not considered to be a big issue? Eg https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/anti-nutrients/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/anti-nutrients/ Anyway, if there are steps these products can take to improve their nutritional profile, I’m sure they will work towards them. My model here is that it’s a recent capability gain to make meat-like products that are pretty close to the real thing in taste and texture, and further improvements to nutrition will follow inevitably.
steponlego 4y ago
The garden burger was fine. The new wave of vegetarian meats was always meant to be a low cost substitute for the real deal, for the growing class of plebs. That’s why they stuck it next to the real meat section.
- urfullofsht 4y ago
  [dead]

72 points by achenet 4y ago

No one should be eating these as their main source of nutrients or protein for that matter. A proper plant based diet consists of less processed whole grains, legumes, and leafy vegetables.

wutheringh 4y ago

[flagged]

urfullofsht 4y ago
[dead]
redsummer 4y ago
Didn't this send her father crazy? He certainly seems to have aged rapidly in the last couple of years.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  I think the expérimental benzodiazepine withdrawal technique was problematic. Nobody should fuck around and experiment when it comes down to benzo or alcohol withdrawal.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
nikanj 4y ago
How do you avoid scurvy on that diet? Or does she just flat out deny that vitamins are vitally important?
- cdot2 4y ago
  My understanding is that you generally include organ mean which is high in vitamins.
- Swizec 4y ago
  They've done this experiment! I wrote a summary years ago back when I was doing a 52papers challenge (that I failed, writing 52 academic paper reports in 52 weeks is grueling). https://swizec.com/blog/week-17-what-happens-when-you-only-eat-meat-for-a-year/ https://swizec.com/blog/week-17-what-happens-when-you-only-e... The tldr is that it works if you eat the whole animal. Enough essential nutrients in offal to keep you going.
- PeterisP 4y ago
  Scurvy isn't necessarily a problem in an all-meat diet, as evidenced by historic cultures with extremely low plant food consumption (e.g. historic Coastal Inuit and Masai); however, those diets aren't like "western meat eating" e.g. cooked prime muscle, but include uncooked blood, organ meats, etc.
- maxk42 4y ago
  Okay here we go.... The US RDI for vitamin C was produced not by studying hard what is necessary for the human body but by estimating the amount of vitamin C a small sample of people (N < 200) were getting from self-reported eating activities. They then took two standard deviations higher, rounded the result, and estimated people should be getting 60mg per day. Then in 1998, after lobbying from the orange juice industry and based on no new studies and zero additional information they decided to raise the recommendation 50% to 90mg. However, this is far in excess of the amount actually needed by the human body to ward off disease, which is around 10mg per day. [0]. In fact, eating fresh meat was a well-known cure for scurvy aboard sailing vessels until the early part of the 20th century since fresh meats do contain enough vitamin C to exceed this amount. The forms of vitamin C in meats are furthermore more bioavailable than vegetable sources of vitamin C and there's one more factor to consider: Although vitamin C plays a variety of roles in the human body, the majority of it is used for two purposes: the synthesis of collagen and the synthesis of l-carnitine. Which should strike an astute reader immediately as both being abundant in a carnivorous diet and therefore a person eating meat in abundance would have a much lower biological need for vitamin C to begin with. Furthermore, vitamin C is transported via the GLUT-4 transporter which implies it competes with glucose for absorption. A person on a ketogenic diet such as the lion diet will not have nearly as much glucose in their blood stream and may therefore absorb vitamin C more readily than someone on an omnivorous diet. All that said: no, carnivores do not experience scurvy. [0] https://www.washington.edu/news/2021/08/16/new-analysis-of-landmark-scurvy-study-leads-to-update-on-vitamin-c-needs/ https://www.washington.edu/news/2021/08/16/new-analysis-of-l...
Valgrim 4y ago
That doesn't give her any kind of credibility. Actually given that Jordan Peterson medical license is hanging by a thread, any claim of credibility by association to him gives her even less credency.
- tsetsedfgyet 4y ago
  [flagged]

epups 4y ago

One thing I noticed is that you have to watch out for the protein content in vegetarian "meat", it is sometimes quite low. It varies a lot depending on which type though.

doix 4y ago
I think the amino acid profile is more important, because it's not really stated anywhere. You don't need to really worry about it with meat, but with non meat sources, you (allegedly?) need to start thinking about it. I am a degenerate that consumes a lot of Huel, and they claim to think about it but who knows if our understanding is good enough to properly model this stuff.
windexh8er 4y ago
High protein is not a diet requirement and studies have shown detriment to too much protein consumption. The protein craze is a marketing gimmick, yet most westerners are drawn in by products that advertise it and seem to be concerned about it even when they live a lifestyle that doesn't require increased protein consumption [0]. [0] https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speaking-of-health/are-you-getting-too-much-protein https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speak...
- doix 4y ago
  > People who exercise regularly also have higher needs, about 1.1–1.5 grams per kilogram. People who regularly lift weights, or are training for a running or cycling event need 1.2–1.7 grams per kilogram That's a quote from your article, which matches what gym bros tell you that you need. It's actually pretty hard to get that much even if you eat meat whilst trying to eat only 2-3k calories.
  - windexh8er 4y ago
    I'm curious what your diet consists of? And how many people you know of in Western society that have been diagnosed with "protein deficiency". I'd wager a guess that the answer is zero. I don't eat red/white meat and I fulfill daily protein intake easily for my activity levels while staying under 2k cals. My diet is mostly fruits, veggies, nuts for lunch (sometimes cheeses, beans/lentils). If you think meat is where it's at for protein you'd be way off base. Red meat barely makes it into the top 10 if you're generalizing foods. At that rate you're well over 3k calories by eating nutritionally boring foods (spoiler: meat isn't very well rounded). Finally it's very easy to overestimate working out. But most people who are actually into fitness can also calculate where and how to get their protein correctly as well and know where it's most beneficial, for them, to get it from. I can tell you hardcore "gym bros" aren't all focusing on meat.

ausbah 4y ago

title is a little clickbaity. study only seems to talk about zinc and iron which i think while important is more telling than the vagueness of "low nutritional quality"

rcme 4y ago
Is it possible to have a diet with high nutritional quality without bio-available iron and zinc?
- Retric 4y ago
  That’s a misleading question. Is Meat nutritious even though it lacks vitamin C? How nutritious food is really depends on context. Potatoes cover a larger percentage of our nutritious needs than Bananas. Bananas however cover a few things lacking in normal western diets so we think of them as nutritious.
  - rcme 4y ago
    I think it would be fair to say meat lacks nutrition if it were advertised as an orange substitute. That’s the “context” you’re talking about. Meat substitutes aren’t true substitutes for meat without bio-available iron.
    - BobbyJo 4y ago
      'Vegitarian Meat', if we are talking about it's role in a diet, is a flavor/texture substitute, not a nutritional substitute. If it wasn't about the flavor, there would be pretty much no reason to buy it. If you want to pretend it is a nutritional substitute for meat, people on average suffer much more from too much, as opposed to too little, of what meat has, so it's still not really a problem.
      - rcme 4y ago
        I don't think you can really separate nutrition from flavor/texture. For instance, I cook dinner for my children every night. I want to cook tasty, flavorful food, but I also want my kids to receive adequate nutrition. Perhaps one day I'm at the store and see a meat substitute that's better for the environment. I think it's important to understand that, nutritionally, the substitute is deficient compared to meat. This is a very common thing that comes up with nut "milks." You can find an endless stream of graphs and charts that highlight how much better nut "milks" are compared to cows milk. However, the graphs never ever ever include a comparison of the nutrient content. Sure, you can say adults get too much of everything, but the same is not true for children. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends 2-3 8oz cups of milk a day for children under 5. It would be a equivalent to give your children nut "milk" instead.

Nursie 4y ago

So you need heme to have bioavailable iron… there is plant-based heme in some of the ‘meats’ these days. Seems like it might be good to increase use of that.

User23 4y ago

I really don’t understand eating vegetarian, presumably for well-being, and then making fake “meat” food science experiments a major part of your diet. I have nothing against people choosing to eat vegetarian either. I’m not vegetarian, but I abstain from meat from time to time so sometimes I eat vegetarian. And when I do I’d much rather have something like delicious traditionally vegetarian Indian food than the output of some novel process chemistry reactor.

carstenhag 4y ago
Because many vegans (including me) like meat taste, but don't want to cause unnecessary suffering and/or kill animals.
- ihatepython 4y ago
  Are there many vegans who do want to cause unnecessary suffering and/or kill? The guy who killed those 4 students in Moscow ID is a vegan. Was wondering if there was any correlation.
  - someNameIG 4y ago
    There are very many terrible people who eat meat, what's your point?
    - ihatepython 4y ago
      Just wondering if vegans are more or less likely to be murderers compared to non-vegans, because perhaps vegans are more ideological and less flexible, maybe there's a correlation
throwawaylinux 4y ago
> I really don’t understand eating vegetarian, presumably for well-being, and then making fake “meat” food science experiments a major part of your diet. Okay, thanks for the data point. Have you done anything to try to understand it? Talked to people who do this and ask them about it, for example?

comex 4y ago

On a related note, I’ve noticed that vegetarian jerky and other vegetarian meat-product substitutes have a slightly lower protein-to-calorie ratio than the originals. Not a big difference, but consistent.

spicymaki 4y ago

Vegetarians should not be getting the majority their nutrients from vegetarian meat. These products are not even designed with that goal in mind. Vegetarians should have a varied plant based diet and supplement if necessary.

paulcole 4y ago

> A diet largely made up of plant-based foods such as root vegetables, pulses, fruit and vegetables generally has a low climate impact and is also associated with health benefits such as a reduced risk of age-related diabetes and cardiovascular disease, as has been shown in several large studies. Sounds awful. Personally this is a risk I’m willing to take.

UglyToad 4y ago

Repeat after me, no one eats a burger believing it's a health food. Now write it a hundred times and maybe we can stop this circular discussion.

reedjosh 4y ago
I think a Burger is healthy if the ingredients are of sufficient quality. The buns and perhaps sugary sauces are the least healthy bits.
- UglyToad 4y ago
  Agreex, if the burger patty is just prime ground beef or black beans and quinoa or something it's probably ok. But people like to eat food that is nice sometimes and so it's everything else, the mayo, the ketchup, the toppings, the bun, the fries, that are part of the mise en place of the burger experience and the same goes for other vegetarian meat substitutes, e.g. sausages or bacon.
  - throw827474737 4y ago
    Agreed, and that is also totally ok I'd claim! :)
alphazard 4y ago
The beef itself is arguably one of the healthiest foods available. The burger ensemble with the fries and buns isn't great. The whole point of vegetarian burgers is so people following those diets can fit into social settings where others are eating burgers. Most vegetarians are such for ethical reasons, knowing it's harder to get adequate nutrition, and planning accordingly. Hopefully they aren't eating vegeburgers and expecting it to have the same nutrient profile as a real burger.
- vjerancrnjak 4y ago
  One ingredient is neither healthy or unhealthy. It's only diet/lifestyle that is healthy. A healthy diet can include a variety of ingredients. Associating a particular food with health or illness is an incorrect thing to do, at least I think so.

Khelavaster 4y ago

Iron is not a proxy for nutritional quality.... Amino acid and fatty acid compositions should be directly compared between meat/eggs raised with access to a complex outdoor supplemental food biome vs outdoor-raised industrially fed meat/eggs vs indoor raised (and also grass fed vs grainfed vs grain finished beef/dairy)

theptip 4y ago

I can’t see any obvious cynical conflicts of interest here in the funding sources, but I don’t know the Bertebos Foundation. While I’m aware of some meat industry campaigns to dissuade people from eating vegetarian alternatives, this study seems plausibly good-faith. The object level claim is “some of these products contain phytates” (aka anti-nutrients). Not my field but the first few search results suggest this is not considered to be a big issue? Eg https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/anti-nutrients/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/anti-nutrients/ Anyway, if there are steps these products can take to improve their nutritional profile, I’m sure they will work towards them. My model here is that it’s a recent capability gain to make meat-like products that are pretty close to the real thing in taste and texture, and further improvements to nutrition will follow inevitably.

steponlego 4y ago

The garden burger was fine. The new wave of vegetarian meats was always meant to be a low cost substitute for the real deal, for the growing class of plebs. That’s why they stuck it next to the real meat section.

urfullofsht 4y ago
[dead]