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Without delving into any moral or fairness arguments, it is probably fair to say that a US tax payer in the top 1% probably already pays 10x to 100x in taxes, i

Without delving into any moral or fairness arguments, it is probably fair to say that a US tax payer in the top 1% probably already pays 10x to 100x in taxes, in absolute terms, compared to the median tax payer. If I'm reading this [1] correctly, in 2020 about 99% of the population was responsible for 56% of individual taxes while 1% was responsible for the rest 44%. [1] https://www.irs.gov/statistics/soi-tax-stats-individual-statistical-tables-by-size-of-adjusted-gross-income https://www.irs.gov/statistics/soi-tax-stats-individual-stat...

stevemk14ebr 4y ago
Wait till you do the math on how much money that 1% has relative to the 99%.
- Wolfenstein98k 4y ago
  That doesn't matter. You don't get taxed on how much you have, you get taxed on every dollar as it comes in. What they have is post-tax. You can't just eye up what they have left over as if it has never been taxed.
  - voisin 4y ago
    > What they have is post-tax. What? No. Net worth amounts are quoted in approximate pre-tax amounts. The vast bulk of which, for the 1%, are deferred capital gains taxes. The rest of us don’t get the ability to defer taxes until we feel like it, and capital gains are taxed at a lower rate too because… just because.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      You can defer taxes with 401ks, IRAs, Roth IRAs, and investing in stocks, a house, anything you have that appreciates in value. 40% of Americans have investments in stocks, it is hardly confined to 1%.
      - Retric 4y ago
        Contributions to a Roth IRA are not tax-deductible and early withdrawals are both taxed and penalized. You don’t just pay taxes as normal income when you take an early withdrawal from a 401k they also tack on a 10% penalty making such investments unusually risky. Untaxed capital gains on the other hand is just a free zero interest loan. Anyway, having stocks is irrelevant here. What matters is for tax burden is what percentage of people’s income comes from capital gains.
        vouaobrasil 4y ago
        Interestingly, that's not true in Canada's version of the Roth, the TSFA (tax-free savings account). There, you can make early withdrawals without being taxed, but that counts as a penalty towards future contributions. The total contribution amount is added to each year.
        AmericanChopper 4y ago
        The capital gains you’re talking about are not “untaxed”, they simply don’t exist. An unrealized capital gain is one that hasn’t occurred. It’s very intellectually dishonest to pretend that unrealized gains are real, and extremely so to pretend that they are income.
        skiddo 4y ago
        Okay - but said “unrealized gain” could have dividend payments or be used as collateral for a loan.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        AmericanChopper 4y ago
        Dividends are taxable income my dude… kinda showing how well you understand the topic here.
    - lvass 4y ago
      How could a pre-tax quote be what a person has, if legally they can't have it all? I know clickbait articles love equating those, but we can do better.
    - Wolfenstein98k 4y ago
      Not "just because", there are l ok Ng and detailed reasons why, which is why various wealthy and well-run countries do it. Also, just because you eye up their holdings before they sell and incur a tax liability, does not mean that they have tax-free wealth. Paper wealth is empty. That's why Musk "lost $200,000,000,000" but you can't name who he lost it to - it didn't go anywhere because it effectively never existed. It's only when he sells that it is realised - and taxed - and that's when he gains access to it. You can eye it up all you like before he sells, but it's not real money.
Retric 4y ago
The forms of taxation vary significantly with income, the important comparison is tax burden. The top income earners pay a higher percentage in income taxes but payroll and gas taxes etc effectively cap out. Net result America has a surprisingly flat tax curve that only drops for ultra high or ultra low income earners. Critically the definitions get warped so stock appreciation for example doesn’t count unless you sell it. And when you finally do capital gains isn’t taxed as normal income. You can even give stock away without ever paying any form of income taxes on these gains.
jquery 4y ago
Whatever they’re paying, it’s not enough, because inequality is increasing. In other words, they’re paying an outrageous amount of the taxes because they make an extraordinarily amount of the income (and wealth). I’m not talking about someone who got a bunch of RSUs and paid 50% on their $2m payday, it’s the billionaires like Trump who treat tax evasion as a game because the consequences are lower than the expected rewards.
- alchemist1e9 4y ago
  I will speculate there is a completely different mechanism for inequality than taxation policies. Let’s call it crony capitalism and specifically originating within the financial system. Federal reserve policies and bailouts and socialized losses with privatized gains are what cause inequities, imho. I can give a few specific examples that might help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiden_Lane_Transactions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiden_Lane_Transactions https://www.newyorkfed.org/markets/programs-archive/large-scale-asset-purchases https://www.newyorkfed.org/markets/programs-archive/large-sc... Central banks engage in civilization level money laundering and cause the inequality increases. These programs are crony capitalism that is specifically directed to an established globalist western oligarchy. That’s not capitalism even remotely, it’s global oligarchy. $80B/month was regular dispensed in exchange for collateral which was worth significantly less. That’s 80 modern skyscrapers per month. It will be interesting if censorship can be successfully reigned in and someone more articulate and with public credibility can attempt to explain the outright theft mechanism that was and continues to be obfuscate by jargon and games and corruption.
  - jquery 4y ago
    Of course The Fed is a generator of inequality, but if taxes were set properly, it could be counterbalanced. We can see this in European countries with much lower rates of inequality because of high taxes on excessive wealth and income. They also have central banks printing money at insanely low interest rates (or even negative rates)… until recently… perhaps they have raised their rates in tandem with the US.
    - 4y ago
TheCoelacanth 4y ago
That covers federal income tax, which is only one of many forms of taxation. It isn't even the only federal tax on income (FICA is not included).

stevemk14ebr 4y ago

Wait till you do the math on how much money that 1% has relative to the 99%.

Wolfenstein98k 4y ago
That doesn't matter. You don't get taxed on how much you have, you get taxed on every dollar as it comes in. What they have is post-tax. You can't just eye up what they have left over as if it has never been taxed.
- voisin 4y ago
  > What they have is post-tax. What? No. Net worth amounts are quoted in approximate pre-tax amounts. The vast bulk of which, for the 1%, are deferred capital gains taxes. The rest of us don’t get the ability to defer taxes until we feel like it, and capital gains are taxed at a lower rate too because… just because.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    You can defer taxes with 401ks, IRAs, Roth IRAs, and investing in stocks, a house, anything you have that appreciates in value. 40% of Americans have investments in stocks, it is hardly confined to 1%.
    - Retric 4y ago
      Contributions to a Roth IRA are not tax-deductible and early withdrawals are both taxed and penalized. You don’t just pay taxes as normal income when you take an early withdrawal from a 401k they also tack on a 10% penalty making such investments unusually risky. Untaxed capital gains on the other hand is just a free zero interest loan. Anyway, having stocks is irrelevant here. What matters is for tax burden is what percentage of people’s income comes from capital gains.
      - vouaobrasil 4y ago
        Interestingly, that's not true in Canada's version of the Roth, the TSFA (tax-free savings account). There, you can make early withdrawals without being taxed, but that counts as a penalty towards future contributions. The total contribution amount is added to each year.
      - AmericanChopper 4y ago
        The capital gains you’re talking about are not “untaxed”, they simply don’t exist. An unrealized capital gain is one that hasn’t occurred. It’s very intellectually dishonest to pretend that unrealized gains are real, and extremely so to pretend that they are income.
        skiddo 4y ago
        Okay - but said “unrealized gain” could have dividend payments or be used as collateral for a loan.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        AmericanChopper 4y ago
        Dividends are taxable income my dude… kinda showing how well you understand the topic here.
  - lvass 4y ago
    How could a pre-tax quote be what a person has, if legally they can't have it all? I know clickbait articles love equating those, but we can do better.
  - Wolfenstein98k 4y ago
    Not "just because", there are l ok Ng and detailed reasons why, which is why various wealthy and well-run countries do it. Also, just because you eye up their holdings before they sell and incur a tax liability, does not mean that they have tax-free wealth. Paper wealth is empty. That's why Musk "lost $200,000,000,000" but you can't name who he lost it to - it didn't go anywhere because it effectively never existed. It's only when he sells that it is realised - and taxed - and that's when he gains access to it. You can eye it up all you like before he sells, but it's not real money.

Retric 4y ago

The forms of taxation vary significantly with income, the important comparison is tax burden. The top income earners pay a higher percentage in income taxes but payroll and gas taxes etc effectively cap out. Net result America has a surprisingly flat tax curve that only drops for ultra high or ultra low income earners. Critically the definitions get warped so stock appreciation for example doesn’t count unless you sell it. And when you finally do capital gains isn’t taxed as normal income. You can even give stock away without ever paying any form of income taxes on these gains.

jquery 4y ago

Whatever they’re paying, it’s not enough, because inequality is increasing. In other words, they’re paying an outrageous amount of the taxes because they make an extraordinarily amount of the income (and wealth). I’m not talking about someone who got a bunch of RSUs and paid 50% on their $2m payday, it’s the billionaires like Trump who treat tax evasion as a game because the consequences are lower than the expected rewards.

alchemist1e9 4y ago
I will speculate there is a completely different mechanism for inequality than taxation policies. Let’s call it crony capitalism and specifically originating within the financial system. Federal reserve policies and bailouts and socialized losses with privatized gains are what cause inequities, imho. I can give a few specific examples that might help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiden_Lane_Transactions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiden_Lane_Transactions https://www.newyorkfed.org/markets/programs-archive/large-scale-asset-purchases https://www.newyorkfed.org/markets/programs-archive/large-sc... Central banks engage in civilization level money laundering and cause the inequality increases. These programs are crony capitalism that is specifically directed to an established globalist western oligarchy. That’s not capitalism even remotely, it’s global oligarchy. $80B/month was regular dispensed in exchange for collateral which was worth significantly less. That’s 80 modern skyscrapers per month. It will be interesting if censorship can be successfully reigned in and someone more articulate and with public credibility can attempt to explain the outright theft mechanism that was and continues to be obfuscate by jargon and games and corruption.
- jquery 4y ago
  Of course The Fed is a generator of inequality, but if taxes were set properly, it could be counterbalanced. We can see this in European countries with much lower rates of inequality because of high taxes on excessive wealth and income. They also have central banks printing money at insanely low interest rates (or even negative rates)… until recently… perhaps they have raised their rates in tandem with the US.
  - 4y ago

TheCoelacanth 4y ago

That covers federal income tax, which is only one of many forms of taxation. It isn't even the only federal tax on income (FICA is not included).