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The governor is from rural Utah and his family owns a farm. His deep roots in that culture will be a challenge.

by mrchucklepants 4y ago

umvi 4y ago
Well maybe Utah needs to vote in a technocrat from "Silicon Slopes" as their next governor.
- zahma 4y ago
  I don’t see why being a farmer is implicitly linked to waste. Sure he has farm interests in mind, but farmers will be among the first to really feel the affects of a dying lake ecosystem.
  - masklinn 4y ago
    Historically farmers (and most people really) have sucked the area dry before getting worried. US farmers are certainly doing that right now, the incentives encourage it, and they're quick to lobby against changes in incentives. That's also what you get from a prisoner's dilemma, a farmer switching to conservation will increase their production prices and / or lower their yields (as they'll at least need to invest in new farming methods, probably new hardware, and will have to learn those), and they'll fall behind their neighbours to say nothing of the market as a whole.
    - zahma 4y ago
      You make a good point, but perhaps that one “their own” is at the helm can make a difference in ensuring trust so as to break the prisoner’s dilemma (see point 6 in the executive summary).
  - walnutclosefarm 4y ago
    It's only because agriculture is the big user, and the most dependent on overdrawing water resources. Farmers are no different from other people, and the oft-quoted line of Upton Sinclair that "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his livelihood depends upon his not understanding it," answers your question. Farmers who have built a livelihood on irrigation are resistant to the notion that their water use is the problem, because if they admit it, they have to drastically change, or maybe give up, their way of making a living. It's really no different from trying to convince a tech mogul that social media is harmful to children and adolescents. They can't see it, because they won't see it, or they won't see it, because the can't see it, since seeing it invalidates their business model.
    - scarmig 4y ago
      I'd extend a bit more sympathy to farmers. When they purchased the land, they were also purchasing bundled water rights; land without the related water rights would have been a fraction of the price. And the property, inheritance, etc taxes they pay on the value of the land are assessed at a price that includes those rights. And all of a sudden when those rights become much more valuable, people want to take it from them? It's a bitter pill to swallow, particularly when the farmer (not without reason) sees it as an attack on their way of life.
      - rootusrootus 4y ago
        > I'd extend a bit more sympathy to farmers. Yes, but I'd temper my sympathy with the knowledge that small farmers have mostly been pushed out by extremely large corporations. I have considerably less sympathy for them.
        scarmig 4y ago
        Farm economic class by sales values (USD annual) | number 1k-10k 11000 10k-100k 5100 100k-250k 900 250k-500k 520 500k-1M 310 >1M 270 Total 18100 Source: https://ag.utah.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/2019-Utah-Agricultural-Statistics-and-Annual-Summary.pdf https://ag.utah.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/2019-Utah-Agr... (see page 27 of the PDF/page 25 of the document)
        rootusrootus 4y ago
        What I'm getting from that is chart is... yes, farming is completely dominated by large companies. Something close to 90% of farms by number comprise as much as (but probably less than) 25% of the economic output. This is making a wild (but I would guess conservative) assumption of what ">1M" translates to. If I'm reading that wrong, I would appreciate the correction.
        scarmig 4y ago
  - suresk 4y ago
    > but farmers will be among the first to really feel the affects of a dying lake ecosystem. How is this so in the case of the Great Salt Lake?
- devmunchies 4y ago
  Let’s turn Utah into California. Drought and all.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    > Drought and all. I never thought Democrats would be blamed for the drought as well.
    - devmunchies 4y ago
      You’re grasping at straws. It wasn’t a political comment. Utah already has the the drought, now it just needs the urban technocrats.
      - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        Sorry, I thought the comment was associating politics with environment. Utah is already one of the most urban states (90%). And "conservative technocrats" mostly run things at the state level (SLC itself is very Democrat), so I'm a bit surprised the governor comes from a farm.
        masklinn 4y ago
        > Sorry, I thought the comment was associating politics with environment. It absolutely is and they're lying through their teeth.
        devmunchies 4y ago
        You people who see everything as a demo vs repub battle are tiresome. I couldn’t care less about political parties. I know that concept is unthinkable to you.
        masklinn 4y ago
        Yep, sure, which is why you went with good ol' tired dumping on california. Very believable, thank you for the laugh. Have a nice day. But maybe try avoiding the obvious tell if you're trying to keep your ideological affiliations hidden?
- lost_tourist 4y ago
  Having lived in Utah rural areas for "a while", they will have to have a dust bowl 2.0 in the ag area to be brought to their senses, it's that simple. No amount of logic or begging from liberals will change that. Reality has to set in
  - timmytokyo 4y ago
    You see a similar effect in California, where farms continue to grow almonds and pistachios, highly profitable crops that require ridiculous amounts of water. Although some farms have starting switching away from these crops as water prices have soared, you can still see nut orchard after nut orchard as you drive through the central valley. Moreover, Big Ag is fighting tooth and nail to prevent any restrictions on water usage, claiming that dams are the only answer. Maybe try switching to a more sustainable crop? But that would mean less profit.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      > almonds and pistachios, highly profitable crops that require ridiculous amounts of water I thought that was a bit overblown, that there are several common crops worse than almonds? Such as alfalfa, if I'm remembering correctly.
      - lazide 4y ago
        The Antelope Valley Aquifer in California has had thousands of feet of ground water depleted growing Alfalfa. It’s part of the Mojave Desert. There used to be artesian springs over much of it, now the ground water is over 2500 feet below ground, and starting to be widely contaminated with arsenic. It’s pretty mind blowing, frankly. This was generally all done via wells sunk on private property. There has been ongoing litigation to get this under control for several decades that is starting to finally result in action.
        rootusrootus 4y ago
        It seems like the way we handle water rights has to change.
- yamazakiwi 4y ago
  Utah is already experimenting with this solution on their NBA team if you care to look into it.
- emodendroket 4y ago
  Silicon, hm? Semiconductor production itself is quite water-hungry. Consider: https://www.theverge.com/22628925/water-semiconductor-shortage-arizona-drought https://www.theverge.com/22628925/water-semiconductor-shorta... > A factory or “fab” for making semiconductors needs a lot of water to operate. It’ll guzzle between 2 to 4 million gallons of water a day by some estimates, using the water to cool down equipment and clean silicon wafers. That’s about as much water as 13,698 to 27,397 Arizona residents might use in a day. Fabs are also pretty picky when it comes to water quality, they need to use “ultra-pure” water to prevent any impurities from damaging the chips.

The governor is from rural Utah and his family owns a farm. His deep roots in that culture will be a challenge.

umvi 4y ago

Well maybe Utah needs to vote in a technocrat from "Silicon Slopes" as their next governor.

zahma 4y ago
I don’t see why being a farmer is implicitly linked to waste. Sure he has farm interests in mind, but farmers will be among the first to really feel the affects of a dying lake ecosystem.
- masklinn 4y ago
  Historically farmers (and most people really) have sucked the area dry before getting worried. US farmers are certainly doing that right now, the incentives encourage it, and they're quick to lobby against changes in incentives. That's also what you get from a prisoner's dilemma, a farmer switching to conservation will increase their production prices and / or lower their yields (as they'll at least need to invest in new farming methods, probably new hardware, and will have to learn those), and they'll fall behind their neighbours to say nothing of the market as a whole.
  - zahma 4y ago
    You make a good point, but perhaps that one “their own” is at the helm can make a difference in ensuring trust so as to break the prisoner’s dilemma (see point 6 in the executive summary).
- walnutclosefarm 4y ago
  It's only because agriculture is the big user, and the most dependent on overdrawing water resources. Farmers are no different from other people, and the oft-quoted line of Upton Sinclair that "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his livelihood depends upon his not understanding it," answers your question. Farmers who have built a livelihood on irrigation are resistant to the notion that their water use is the problem, because if they admit it, they have to drastically change, or maybe give up, their way of making a living. It's really no different from trying to convince a tech mogul that social media is harmful to children and adolescents. They can't see it, because they won't see it, or they won't see it, because the can't see it, since seeing it invalidates their business model.
  - scarmig 4y ago
    I'd extend a bit more sympathy to farmers. When they purchased the land, they were also purchasing bundled water rights; land without the related water rights would have been a fraction of the price. And the property, inheritance, etc taxes they pay on the value of the land are assessed at a price that includes those rights. And all of a sudden when those rights become much more valuable, people want to take it from them? It's a bitter pill to swallow, particularly when the farmer (not without reason) sees it as an attack on their way of life.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      > I'd extend a bit more sympathy to farmers. Yes, but I'd temper my sympathy with the knowledge that small farmers have mostly been pushed out by extremely large corporations. I have considerably less sympathy for them.
      - scarmig 4y ago
        Farm economic class by sales values (USD annual) | number 1k-10k 11000 10k-100k 5100 100k-250k 900 250k-500k 520 500k-1M 310 >1M 270 Total 18100 Source: https://ag.utah.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/2019-Utah-Agricultural-Statistics-and-Annual-Summary.pdf https://ag.utah.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/2019-Utah-Agr... (see page 27 of the PDF/page 25 of the document)
        rootusrootus 4y ago
        What I'm getting from that is chart is... yes, farming is completely dominated by large companies. Something close to 90% of farms by number comprise as much as (but probably less than) 25% of the economic output. This is making a wild (but I would guess conservative) assumption of what ">1M" translates to. If I'm reading that wrong, I would appreciate the correction.
        scarmig 4y ago
- suresk 4y ago
  > but farmers will be among the first to really feel the affects of a dying lake ecosystem. How is this so in the case of the Great Salt Lake?
devmunchies 4y ago
Let’s turn Utah into California. Drought and all.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  > Drought and all. I never thought Democrats would be blamed for the drought as well.
  - devmunchies 4y ago
    You’re grasping at straws. It wasn’t a political comment. Utah already has the the drought, now it just needs the urban technocrats.
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      Sorry, I thought the comment was associating politics with environment. Utah is already one of the most urban states (90%). And "conservative technocrats" mostly run things at the state level (SLC itself is very Democrat), so I'm a bit surprised the governor comes from a farm.
      - masklinn 4y ago
        > Sorry, I thought the comment was associating politics with environment. It absolutely is and they're lying through their teeth.
        devmunchies 4y ago
        You people who see everything as a demo vs repub battle are tiresome. I couldn’t care less about political parties. I know that concept is unthinkable to you.
        masklinn 4y ago
        Yep, sure, which is why you went with good ol' tired dumping on california. Very believable, thank you for the laugh. Have a nice day. But maybe try avoiding the obvious tell if you're trying to keep your ideological affiliations hidden?
lost_tourist 4y ago
Having lived in Utah rural areas for "a while", they will have to have a dust bowl 2.0 in the ag area to be brought to their senses, it's that simple. No amount of logic or begging from liberals will change that. Reality has to set in
- timmytokyo 4y ago
  You see a similar effect in California, where farms continue to grow almonds and pistachios, highly profitable crops that require ridiculous amounts of water. Although some farms have starting switching away from these crops as water prices have soared, you can still see nut orchard after nut orchard as you drive through the central valley. Moreover, Big Ag is fighting tooth and nail to prevent any restrictions on water usage, claiming that dams are the only answer. Maybe try switching to a more sustainable crop? But that would mean less profit.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    > almonds and pistachios, highly profitable crops that require ridiculous amounts of water I thought that was a bit overblown, that there are several common crops worse than almonds? Such as alfalfa, if I'm remembering correctly.
    - lazide 4y ago
      The Antelope Valley Aquifer in California has had thousands of feet of ground water depleted growing Alfalfa. It’s part of the Mojave Desert. There used to be artesian springs over much of it, now the ground water is over 2500 feet below ground, and starting to be widely contaminated with arsenic. It’s pretty mind blowing, frankly. This was generally all done via wells sunk on private property. There has been ongoing litigation to get this under control for several decades that is starting to finally result in action.
      - rootusrootus 4y ago
        It seems like the way we handle water rights has to change.
yamazakiwi 4y ago
Utah is already experimenting with this solution on their NBA team if you care to look into it.
emodendroket 4y ago
Silicon, hm? Semiconductor production itself is quite water-hungry. Consider: https://www.theverge.com/22628925/water-semiconductor-shortage-arizona-drought https://www.theverge.com/22628925/water-semiconductor-shorta... > A factory or “fab” for making semiconductors needs a lot of water to operate. It’ll guzzle between 2 to 4 million gallons of water a day by some estimates, using the water to cool down equipment and clean silicon wafers. That’s about as much water as 13,698 to 27,397 Arizona residents might use in a day. Fabs are also pretty picky when it comes to water quality, they need to use “ultra-pure” water to prevent any impurities from damaging the chips.