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> Not really, otherwise whales and elephants would be way smarter, than us. How do you know that? I mentioned this in another comment, but dolphins and orcas h

by bmitc 4y ago

> Not really, otherwise whales and elephants would be way smarter, than us. How do you know that? I mentioned this in another comment, but dolphins and orcas have more folds in their brain than we do, and folding is associated with greater processing power and higher function. Additionally, the areas of their and whales' brains associated with emotional intelligence are much larger relative to the rest of their brain than the same areas in our brain are. Their brains are very, very interesting. For example, they keep one brain hemisphere active during sleep since they are conscious breathers, and they actually alternate which hemisphere is kept awake. Whales, dolphins, and orcas are damn smart, and I think there's evidence enough that we cannot conclude that they aren't more intelligent than us. Although they lack technological development, this is due to their living environment and physiobiology and not due to their intelligence. Orcas in particular have achieved complete dominance of their environment, aside from human activity, and are geographically widespread with diverse cultures. There are many cases where orcas actually use humans as tools, even training humans to help them in hunts (and not the other way around).

taneq 4y ago
Sorry to be crass but I'd assume intelligence is somewhat correlated with mastery of the physical world (I mean if it weren't we wouldn't care about things like AI alignment) and while cetaceans are clever mammals they're not very good at avoiding being soup. I sympathize with them, but if they were "way smarter than us" we would be running and hiding instead of debating how nicely we should treat them.
- bmitc 4y ago
  I already addressed that though. Operating under the hypothetical and assumption that humans could survive in the ocean, humans couldn't develop technology and written history and knowledge in the ocean without having done so on land first, even with our hand dexterity, much less with fins. Humans existed a long time before proper technology development, and those humans were just as intelligent as modern ones. The ability to create technology is not a requirement for higher intelligence. Even then, orcas do use tools, what they have access to. Without technology, humans stand no chance against an orca, and that goes for any animal in the ocean, from blue whales to great white sharks.
  - svnt 4y ago
    Then we should expect cetaceans to have developed long verbal/oral lineages, especially as their medium is much better for transmitting sound. We see dialects, to an extent, in orcas, but we do not see the human behaviors we might expect. The problem, I think, is in the pure consideration of it as intelligence. This is a limited view.
    - kridsdale1 4y ago
      You’re implying something is only showing intelligence if it shows complexity (long linguistic demonstrations here) Isn’t it more intelligence to convey all the information that you need to with the highest efficiency? We rate a poet who can convey tremendous meaning in few lines as superior to someone who is long winded and their writing is full of bullshit and tropes conveying nothing but using many words.
      - svnt 4y ago
        I’m suggesting that increasing complexity and nuance present in a substrate such as language is a prerequisite for high intelligence because high intelligence in individuals is a feature of groups, not individuals. One person alone is without language and without advanced tools, no matter how big their brains. See feral children. It is possible that cetaceans pushed long ago pushed past complex verbosity into communication via wisdom and are all enlightened beings. Maybe they communicate electrically. Maybe they are in a local maximum of telepathic connection. I hope so.
    - bmitc 4y ago
      > Then we should expect cetaceans to have developed long verbal/oral lineages Why? But nonetheless, they have. They pass on locations, routes, hunting techniques, etc. vocally and behaviorally down through generations. You and some of the other comments bring up a lot of things that don’t really have much to do with intelligence. They really only have anything to do with a human-centric view of intelligence.
      - 4y ago
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  that's an assumption that more intelligence means that they would have to be motivated by revenge and vengeance as opposed to that being a distinctly human flaw
  - bmitc 4y ago
    This is a good point, and it reminds me of something. I do wonder if the ability to be content is a sign of higher intelligence. Humans are decidedly discontented, and I can't help but be curious about that being a possible showcase of our ignorance.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
hutzlibu 4y ago
"How do you know that? " I do not know it. I am not an expert and had only limited, (but fascinating) contact with them. But I would assume, if they would be "way smarter", than they could and would find ways of communicating with us. As far as I know, the research shows that they can communcicate towards each other quite well, but not towards us beyond very basic things. But of course that reminds me of an old joke: A donkey and a dog on a farm are talking to each other in the evening and the donkey complains that he has so much work to do, but would like to become a writer. The dog asks: why don't you tell the farmer? The donkey answers, are you crazy? If he finds out, I can read and write, I will also have to do his bookkeeping. Meaning, maybe whales and co. could communicate with us, but choose not to. But if this would be the case, their reasoning would have to include some very astonishing things, as whales are still hunted - which they likely could almost completely stop by telling us exactly that.
- bmitc 4y ago
  > But I would assume, if they would be "way smarter", than they could and would find ways of communicating with us. As far as I know, the research shows that they can communcicate towards each other quite well, but not towards us beyond very basic things. That’s a human centric approach and a little strange, because how do we communicate with them? We can’t understand them or communicate with them any more than they can with us. Old Tom was an orca off the Australian coast who, with his pod, trained humans on how to efficiently catch whales. Old Tom demanded the tongues of the whales, which was given to him by the whalers.
0xBABAD00C 4y ago
> Whales, dolphins, and orcas are damn smart, and I think there's evidence enough that we cannot conclude that they aren't more intelligent than us. Where's this evidence? What exactly does "more intelligent" mean to you? Do you think a dolphin can learn to play e.g. Chess? I doubt you can teach them to play even tic-tac-toe.

by bmitc 4y ago

taneq 4y ago

Sorry to be crass but I'd assume intelligence is somewhat correlated with mastery of the physical world (I mean if it weren't we wouldn't care about things like AI alignment) and while cetaceans are clever mammals they're not very good at avoiding being soup. I sympathize with them, but if they were "way smarter than us" we would be running and hiding instead of debating how nicely we should treat them.

bmitc 4y ago
I already addressed that though. Operating under the hypothetical and assumption that humans could survive in the ocean, humans couldn't develop technology and written history and knowledge in the ocean without having done so on land first, even with our hand dexterity, much less with fins. Humans existed a long time before proper technology development, and those humans were just as intelligent as modern ones. The ability to create technology is not a requirement for higher intelligence. Even then, orcas do use tools, what they have access to. Without technology, humans stand no chance against an orca, and that goes for any animal in the ocean, from blue whales to great white sharks.
- svnt 4y ago
  Then we should expect cetaceans to have developed long verbal/oral lineages, especially as their medium is much better for transmitting sound. We see dialects, to an extent, in orcas, but we do not see the human behaviors we might expect. The problem, I think, is in the pure consideration of it as intelligence. This is a limited view.
  - kridsdale1 4y ago
    You’re implying something is only showing intelligence if it shows complexity (long linguistic demonstrations here) Isn’t it more intelligence to convey all the information that you need to with the highest efficiency? We rate a poet who can convey tremendous meaning in few lines as superior to someone who is long winded and their writing is full of bullshit and tropes conveying nothing but using many words.
    - svnt 4y ago
      I’m suggesting that increasing complexity and nuance present in a substrate such as language is a prerequisite for high intelligence because high intelligence in individuals is a feature of groups, not individuals. One person alone is without language and without advanced tools, no matter how big their brains. See feral children. It is possible that cetaceans pushed long ago pushed past complex verbosity into communication via wisdom and are all enlightened beings. Maybe they communicate electrically. Maybe they are in a local maximum of telepathic connection. I hope so.
  - bmitc 4y ago
    > Then we should expect cetaceans to have developed long verbal/oral lineages Why? But nonetheless, they have. They pass on locations, routes, hunting techniques, etc. vocally and behaviorally down through generations. You and some of the other comments bring up a lot of things that don’t really have much to do with intelligence. They really only have anything to do with a human-centric view of intelligence.
    - 4y ago
yieldcrv 4y ago
that's an assumption that more intelligence means that they would have to be motivated by revenge and vengeance as opposed to that being a distinctly human flaw
- bmitc 4y ago
  This is a good point, and it reminds me of something. I do wonder if the ability to be content is a sign of higher intelligence. Humans are decidedly discontented, and I can't help but be curious about that being a possible showcase of our ignorance.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

hutzlibu 4y ago

"How do you know that? " I do not know it. I am not an expert and had only limited, (but fascinating) contact with them. But I would assume, if they would be "way smarter", than they could and would find ways of communicating with us. As far as I know, the research shows that they can communcicate towards each other quite well, but not towards us beyond very basic things. But of course that reminds me of an old joke: A donkey and a dog on a farm are talking to each other in the evening and the donkey complains that he has so much work to do, but would like to become a writer. The dog asks: why don't you tell the farmer? The donkey answers, are you crazy? If he finds out, I can read and write, I will also have to do his bookkeeping. Meaning, maybe whales and co. could communicate with us, but choose not to. But if this would be the case, their reasoning would have to include some very astonishing things, as whales are still hunted - which they likely could almost completely stop by telling us exactly that.

bmitc 4y ago
> But I would assume, if they would be "way smarter", than they could and would find ways of communicating with us. As far as I know, the research shows that they can communcicate towards each other quite well, but not towards us beyond very basic things. That’s a human centric approach and a little strange, because how do we communicate with them? We can’t understand them or communicate with them any more than they can with us. Old Tom was an orca off the Australian coast who, with his pod, trained humans on how to efficiently catch whales. Old Tom demanded the tongues of the whales, which was given to him by the whalers.

0xBABAD00C 4y ago

> Whales, dolphins, and orcas are damn smart, and I think there's evidence enough that we cannot conclude that they aren't more intelligent than us. Where's this evidence? What exactly does "more intelligent" mean to you? Do you think a dolphin can learn to play e.g. Chess? I doubt you can teach them to play even tic-tac-toe.