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"Does brain size always correlate to intelligence?" Not really, otherwise whales and elephants would be way smarter, than us. Well, some people say, they are,

"Does brain size always correlate to intelligence?" Not really, otherwise whales and elephants would be way smarter, than us. Well, some people say, they are, but it does not show in our intelligence tests. And birds brains evolved differently than those of mammals, so maybe they are more efficient with their relative small brain? Because yeah, they are definitely smarter than dogs, who have a bigger brain.

Zamicol 4y ago
Maybe whales are "smarter" than us. How can we empirically test whale intelligence? Their technological abilities are obviously inferior, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were surprisingly intelligent in other ways. I'm trumpet dumb, that doesn't mean I'm not "overall smarter" or "niche smarter" than some people who play trumpet.
prox 4y ago
“For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.” - Douglas Adams
- xen2xen1 4y ago
  This quote is always in the back of my head anytime brain size or intelligence is discussed, and is especially when dolphins are mentioned. And, he has a point.
  - prox 4y ago
    As I reflect on the quote more and more, I believe the dolphins have the right idea.
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  But apparently the dolphins in hitchhikers guide to the galaxy did a bit more, than just having a good time in the water - because unlike the humans, they managed to find a way to leave the earth, when it was destroyed. (Book 4) And this is not further explained in the book, but it likely sounds like technology. And when you want to have and use technology, you have to do more than just splashing around..
  - prox 4y ago
    Since dolphins evolved a couple of times, they might had that tech lying around just in case. The point stands, dolphins use their tech so they can muck about in the water. Humans to compete in a rat race and for survival in its essence. Which come to think of it, is absolutely absurd if for any intelligent species. So we aren’t that smart.
    - hutzlibu 4y ago
      "So we aren’t that smart." Well, when you consider that we react to global crisis like a pandemic with more confrontation, than cooperation (there was no real exchange of technology between west and east and patents and licencing were still more important, than producing enough vaccines) and to the climate crisis rather with more wars over whats left of the ressources, than to unite and solve the problems - no, we are not. We are smart enough to see, what could be possible, but unable to overcome primitive power struggles.
      - vlunkr 4y ago
        That's some pretty serious cherry picking
        hutzlibu 4y ago
        Well, do you really think humanity as its whole acted "smart" during the pandemic? And cherrypicking, well climate change is the current problem, affecting the whole earth, so a smart species by my definition would act globally and coordinated and not only talk about it. But sure, by comparison we still seem to be the smartest around.
bmitc 4y ago
> Not really, otherwise whales and elephants would be way smarter, than us. How do you know that? I mentioned this in another comment, but dolphins and orcas have more folds in their brain than we do, and folding is associated with greater processing power and higher function. Additionally, the areas of their and whales' brains associated with emotional intelligence are much larger relative to the rest of their brain than the same areas in our brain are. Their brains are very, very interesting. For example, they keep one brain hemisphere active during sleep since they are conscious breathers, and they actually alternate which hemisphere is kept awake. Whales, dolphins, and orcas are damn smart, and I think there's evidence enough that we cannot conclude that they aren't more intelligent than us. Although they lack technological development, this is due to their living environment and physiobiology and not due to their intelligence. Orcas in particular have achieved complete dominance of their environment, aside from human activity, and are geographically widespread with diverse cultures. There are many cases where orcas actually use humans as tools, even training humans to help them in hunts (and not the other way around).
- taneq 4y ago
  Sorry to be crass but I'd assume intelligence is somewhat correlated with mastery of the physical world (I mean if it weren't we wouldn't care about things like AI alignment) and while cetaceans are clever mammals they're not very good at avoiding being soup. I sympathize with them, but if they were "way smarter than us" we would be running and hiding instead of debating how nicely we should treat them.
  - bmitc 4y ago
    I already addressed that though. Operating under the hypothetical and assumption that humans could survive in the ocean, humans couldn't develop technology and written history and knowledge in the ocean without having done so on land first, even with our hand dexterity, much less with fins. Humans existed a long time before proper technology development, and those humans were just as intelligent as modern ones. The ability to create technology is not a requirement for higher intelligence. Even then, orcas do use tools, what they have access to. Without technology, humans stand no chance against an orca, and that goes for any animal in the ocean, from blue whales to great white sharks.

Zamicol 4y ago

Maybe whales are "smarter" than us. How can we empirically test whale intelligence? Their technological abilities are obviously inferior, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were surprisingly intelligent in other ways. I'm trumpet dumb, that doesn't mean I'm not "overall smarter" or "niche smarter" than some people who play trumpet.

prox 4y ago

“For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.” - Douglas Adams

xen2xen1 4y ago
This quote is always in the back of my head anytime brain size or intelligence is discussed, and is especially when dolphins are mentioned. And, he has a point.
- prox 4y ago
  As I reflect on the quote more and more, I believe the dolphins have the right idea.
hutzlibu 4y ago
But apparently the dolphins in hitchhikers guide to the galaxy did a bit more, than just having a good time in the water - because unlike the humans, they managed to find a way to leave the earth, when it was destroyed. (Book 4) And this is not further explained in the book, but it likely sounds like technology. And when you want to have and use technology, you have to do more than just splashing around..
- prox 4y ago
  Since dolphins evolved a couple of times, they might had that tech lying around just in case. The point stands, dolphins use their tech so they can muck about in the water. Humans to compete in a rat race and for survival in its essence. Which come to think of it, is absolutely absurd if for any intelligent species. So we aren’t that smart.
  - hutzlibu 4y ago
    "So we aren’t that smart." Well, when you consider that we react to global crisis like a pandemic with more confrontation, than cooperation (there was no real exchange of technology between west and east and patents and licencing were still more important, than producing enough vaccines) and to the climate crisis rather with more wars over whats left of the ressources, than to unite and solve the problems - no, we are not. We are smart enough to see, what could be possible, but unable to overcome primitive power struggles.
    - vlunkr 4y ago
      That's some pretty serious cherry picking
      - hutzlibu 4y ago
        Well, do you really think humanity as its whole acted "smart" during the pandemic? And cherrypicking, well climate change is the current problem, affecting the whole earth, so a smart species by my definition would act globally and coordinated and not only talk about it. But sure, by comparison we still seem to be the smartest around.

bmitc 4y ago

> Not really, otherwise whales and elephants would be way smarter, than us. How do you know that? I mentioned this in another comment, but dolphins and orcas have more folds in their brain than we do, and folding is associated with greater processing power and higher function. Additionally, the areas of their and whales' brains associated with emotional intelligence are much larger relative to the rest of their brain than the same areas in our brain are. Their brains are very, very interesting. For example, they keep one brain hemisphere active during sleep since they are conscious breathers, and they actually alternate which hemisphere is kept awake. Whales, dolphins, and orcas are damn smart, and I think there's evidence enough that we cannot conclude that they aren't more intelligent than us. Although they lack technological development, this is due to their living environment and physiobiology and not due to their intelligence. Orcas in particular have achieved complete dominance of their environment, aside from human activity, and are geographically widespread with diverse cultures. There are many cases where orcas actually use humans as tools, even training humans to help them in hunts (and not the other way around).

taneq 4y ago
Sorry to be crass but I'd assume intelligence is somewhat correlated with mastery of the physical world (I mean if it weren't we wouldn't care about things like AI alignment) and while cetaceans are clever mammals they're not very good at avoiding being soup. I sympathize with them, but if they were "way smarter than us" we would be running and hiding instead of debating how nicely we should treat them.
- bmitc 4y ago
  I already addressed that though. Operating under the hypothetical and assumption that humans could survive in the ocean, humans couldn't develop technology and written history and knowledge in the ocean without having done so on land first, even with our hand dexterity, much less with fins. Humans existed a long time before proper technology development, and those humans were just as intelligent as modern ones. The ability to create technology is not a requirement for higher intelligence. Even then, orcas do use tools, what they have access to. Without technology, humans stand no chance against an orca, and that goes for any animal in the ocean, from blue whales to great white sharks.