4 ms·

I have 20k miles driving a Model S with a Yoke. While I'm not a huge fan, the yoke itself is only part of the problem. The bigger problems are: 1. The capaciti

I have 20k miles driving a Model S with a Yoke. While I'm not a huge fan, the yoke itself is only part of the problem. The bigger problems are: 1. The capacitive buttons for turn signals. They are dangerous. They require taking eyes from the road, offer no feedback, and are honestly dangerous. 2. The horn. It's not in the middle. It's off to the side as a no-feedback capacitive button. Every time I've needed to use the horn, I've been unable to find the button. I think recent S/X Updates have moved it back, but it's so dumb. It's a feature set designed to look cool on Twitter. Not really for driving.

porphyra 4y ago
The horn is in the middle now. Besides, if you cover multiple buttons on the right with your palm, the horn will sound.
dieselgate 4y ago
Yikes, buttons for turn signals? I can barely get a "legacy" horn to honk sometimes even
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
culi 4y ago
physical buttons are reliable, easily repairable, more accessible to people with a variety of conditions, allow you to memorize location with feel, etc. I've never met anyone who's preferred capacitive buttons over physical ones yet more and more every "smart" technology seems to be opting for them. Some have even added haptic touch-like software to them... just to regain the feeling of the thing that everyone misses but without actually giving them the thing they want...
- alexvoda 4y ago
  Apart from regulation mandating that safety features work, are reliable and are easy to use (physical buttons), I think we need some new economic theory. Why is it that for products with complex spec sheets, the free market (the auto industry is arguably not a free market) does not work to provide the desired diversity? Automakers clearly have the incentive to make any control a capacitive touch surface for many many reasons. Many people hate touch controls for important features in cars. Yet most automakers are switching to touch controls. Free market theory says that other manufacturers should appear and satisfy that desire for consumers. This isn't happening. I do not know of a economic theoretical model that accurately explains the behaviour of complex (many orthogonal characteristics) goods.
  - Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
    The economic models assume consumers have more power than they do. It's easier for industry to convince (or force) people that they want (or have to take) what they produce, rather than produce what people want. For example, everyone wants a simple and reliable inkjet printer for home that doesn't have drm or other bullshit. But we aren't getting it and probably never will. I sincerely hope that capacitance buttons and touchscreens are just a fad like digital speed dials from the 80s. They seemed cool, but ultmately analog dials (even if controlled by digital signals) were just better. I think physical knobs and buttons will come back for the same reason as round steering wheels. It's just the best solution to the problem.
    - alexvoda 4y ago
      > The economic models assume consumers have more power than they do. That is a fair assessment. But what is the cause of it? What I am saying is we need better models. Better theory. > It's easier for industry to convince (or force) people that they want (or have to take) what they produce, rather than produce what people want. And what is the cause of the bandwagoning? I generally do not think it is a case of industry wide collusion (though in some cases it might be). Why is a company going the opposite direction of a trend and marketing that difference a somewhat rare phenomenon? At least partially, I think the cause is marketing driven development. But that still doesn't explain why marketing departments are shy to market going against a trend. It's as if marketing departments of companies buy into the marketing of the trendy company. How many smartphone companies actively advertise they still have phone jacks? How many car companies actively advertise they are still using physical buttons? They could but they don't. Samsung used to make fun of Apple in their ads but even they became apathetic. Apple used to make fun of the rest of the industry with their Mac vs PC ads. Sony could easily make an ad showing how a DJ takes their Sony phone and plugs it in literally everywhere using the jack to play music to a crowd. [s] Damnit, I want my car to have hot-swappable, RGB-illuminated, Cherry MX mechanical switches with double-shot keycaps. [/s]
      - Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
        There is probably more than one cause, but consider the headphone jack one. Apple decided it wanted to get rid of it. Reasons were that they could make regular headphones less convenient (needs dongle) while simultaneously convincing people that air pods are the thing to have. They didn't have to market 'against' the headphone jack, only add friction to use it (via dongle) while heavily marketing 'for' air pods. Nokia wouldn't have gotten away with this, but Apple could because of clout, product status symbology, and massive cash spends available for ads. Most people don't really like the loss, but the idea of not having the latest phone was worse, so they bought them. Other phone manufacturers then follow suit because they see apple sales and think, they must be doing the right thing. Meanwhile, we hate it. Telsa was the same for cars. They came out with a bunch of style choices that most people don't really care for, but the status of having a telsa (at least until recently) was a more powerful driver so they bought the car. Other auto manufacturers interpret this as that its what the consumer wants (or will accept) and change accordingly, especially if it also saves them money. Then boom, we get cars with crappy UI. So I guess my theory is that if an industry has a clear leader whose product offers status along with function, they can make the customer accept pretty much whatever they want. After that, the competition just copies it hoping to keep what market share they have.
checker 4y ago
Marques Brownlee (MKBHD) mentioned that his right capacitive turn signal button is occasionally unresponsive with his Model S Plaid and he's had to resort to lane changes without a turn signal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34VZzBWBDN0&t=648s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34VZzBWBDN0&t=648s Granted, this is one anecdotal case. But when spending over 100K on a car, features like this should be bullet-proof. Actually ... scratch that. Features like this should be bullet-proof because they have been a solved problem for ~50+ years. Tesla is sacrificing safety for minimal cost savings and/or style points.
- spaceman_2020 4y ago
  Features like these should be bulletproof because they pose a serious safety hazard. Safety features should be priority number one for any car manufacturer. You can ship with a crappy infotainment system but please don’t screw around with basic safety.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    In the first place, how are non-working blinkers not illegal to drive with?
    - eyelidlessness 4y ago
      How are they not illegal to sell to drivers? I am continually astonished about the social experiment being done on drivers buying these cars and others who have no choice but to share the road with them.
    - iotku 4y ago
      You can use hand signals, but obviously that's far from ideal.
S_A_P 4y ago
Do you feel like you’re happy with your model s given the issues/compromises of the yoke you mentioned above? The industry wide reduction of real buttons/switches and gauges is something that gives me pause on my next car purchase. I was initially thinking of getting a golf r but the infotainment and steering wheel capacitive buttons are almost universally criticized as really bad and there not being any real way to fix it. When I saw the yoke I thought it was a concept car and they would come to their senses and use a wheel for production. My wish list for an electric car: 1) be a dumb car. Minimal screens/animations/annoyances 2) if you do OTA updates I want to be able to reject a version and or revert to any version from any other version of the system software 3) don’t track me or show me ads 4) no feature on the car should require additional or recurring payments to use with very limited exceptions (thinking navigation updates etc) specifically don’t disable something on my car because I don’t pay future moneys for its use. 5) I’m fine with fast but I would rather have a reasonably quick car that pushes 400miles of range without needing a 200kwh battery. I get that big motors also help make big regenerative power but I would like a car that has similar performance to say an Audi s4 or bmw 340m but electric. 6) simple is fine but the model 3 is oversimplified. they really can’t put simple gauges in front of the driver? I feel like every feature of most teslas is built for this looming full self driving where some of these features make more sense. I think the odds today are pretty good that someone who takes delivery today of a new Tesla will send it to the junkyard before fsd really fully self drives. 7) don’t try to drive for me and allow tweaking of things like brake /steering feel, suspension settings.
- tom9729 4y ago
  The VW CEO recently said that physical buttons would be coming back sometime this year, so you may be able to get that Golf after all. :-) https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/tech/vw-infotainment-and-touchscreen-problems/ https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/tech/vw-infotainment-...
renewiltord 4y ago
Jesus the capacitive touch signaling is astoundingly stupid. The horn, though. In decades of driving, I've used my horn maybe once or twice.
- sometimes_all 4y ago
  Here in India we have to use horns twice a minute. If they want to sell cars in the developing world, they better make their inputs tactile or people won’t buy them.
  - renewiltord 4y ago
    Yeah but the Model 3 is a 58 lakh car before the import duty. If you have to pay 1 crore for a car, you're going to make your driver suffer through the horn. IMHO India will have indigenous EVs far before Tesla.
  - laserdancepony 4y ago
    I doubt India is of any concern to Tesla, except for cheap labor.
- int_19h 4y ago
  When that rare case happens, though, it can be rather important to signal fast.
- abrawill 4y ago
  How often have you used your airbag?
  - renewiltord 4y ago
    About as many times, but the key thing is that the horn is only useful if I'm static since otherwise it's faster for me to evade than honk. I estimate ~0.5 s to 1 s net delay to action if I were to honk, with 0.5 s to 1 s delay in action from other person if they're fast. At a 2 s delay, unless I'm not moving, evasion + braking seems superior. And evasion is made harder while honking. I've had many times where people run red lights in front of me (I live in SF) but I've never honked. It's frequently too late to do anything so I just brake.
int_19h 4y ago
Sounds almost like the flat web UI that took over the desktops is now infecting physical gadgets.
solarkraft 4y ago
Makes you wonder when they'll turn the pedals and steering wheel into capacitive touch interfaces.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
  Worse, they'll make them into the touch-screen where you have to do a specific gesture to turn right, a different one to turn left, and one needing both hands to apply the brakes.
l1tany11 4y ago
Took me very little time to learn the signal buttons. I honestly prefer it now. I just barely wiggle my thumb. Laziness level 1000 reached! I never use the horn… but yeah the middle airbag thing should just be a horn button. Leave the touch horn control if you want, no downside I guess.

porphyra 4y ago

The horn is in the middle now. Besides, if you cover multiple buttons on the right with your palm, the horn will sound.

dieselgate 4y ago

Yikes, buttons for turn signals? I can barely get a "legacy" horn to honk sometimes even

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

culi 4y ago

physical buttons are reliable, easily repairable, more accessible to people with a variety of conditions, allow you to memorize location with feel, etc. I've never met anyone who's preferred capacitive buttons over physical ones yet more and more every "smart" technology seems to be opting for them. Some have even added haptic touch-like software to them... just to regain the feeling of the thing that everyone misses but without actually giving them the thing they want...

alexvoda 4y ago
Apart from regulation mandating that safety features work, are reliable and are easy to use (physical buttons), I think we need some new economic theory. Why is it that for products with complex spec sheets, the free market (the auto industry is arguably not a free market) does not work to provide the desired diversity? Automakers clearly have the incentive to make any control a capacitive touch surface for many many reasons. Many people hate touch controls for important features in cars. Yet most automakers are switching to touch controls. Free market theory says that other manufacturers should appear and satisfy that desire for consumers. This isn't happening. I do not know of a economic theoretical model that accurately explains the behaviour of complex (many orthogonal characteristics) goods.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
  The economic models assume consumers have more power than they do. It's easier for industry to convince (or force) people that they want (or have to take) what they produce, rather than produce what people want. For example, everyone wants a simple and reliable inkjet printer for home that doesn't have drm or other bullshit. But we aren't getting it and probably never will. I sincerely hope that capacitance buttons and touchscreens are just a fad like digital speed dials from the 80s. They seemed cool, but ultmately analog dials (even if controlled by digital signals) were just better. I think physical knobs and buttons will come back for the same reason as round steering wheels. It's just the best solution to the problem.
  - alexvoda 4y ago
    > The economic models assume consumers have more power than they do. That is a fair assessment. But what is the cause of it? What I am saying is we need better models. Better theory. > It's easier for industry to convince (or force) people that they want (or have to take) what they produce, rather than produce what people want. And what is the cause of the bandwagoning? I generally do not think it is a case of industry wide collusion (though in some cases it might be). Why is a company going the opposite direction of a trend and marketing that difference a somewhat rare phenomenon? At least partially, I think the cause is marketing driven development. But that still doesn't explain why marketing departments are shy to market going against a trend. It's as if marketing departments of companies buy into the marketing of the trendy company. How many smartphone companies actively advertise they still have phone jacks? How many car companies actively advertise they are still using physical buttons? They could but they don't. Samsung used to make fun of Apple in their ads but even they became apathetic. Apple used to make fun of the rest of the industry with their Mac vs PC ads. Sony could easily make an ad showing how a DJ takes their Sony phone and plugs it in literally everywhere using the jack to play music to a crowd. [s] Damnit, I want my car to have hot-swappable, RGB-illuminated, Cherry MX mechanical switches with double-shot keycaps. [/s]
    - Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
      There is probably more than one cause, but consider the headphone jack one. Apple decided it wanted to get rid of it. Reasons were that they could make regular headphones less convenient (needs dongle) while simultaneously convincing people that air pods are the thing to have. They didn't have to market 'against' the headphone jack, only add friction to use it (via dongle) while heavily marketing 'for' air pods. Nokia wouldn't have gotten away with this, but Apple could because of clout, product status symbology, and massive cash spends available for ads. Most people don't really like the loss, but the idea of not having the latest phone was worse, so they bought them. Other phone manufacturers then follow suit because they see apple sales and think, they must be doing the right thing. Meanwhile, we hate it. Telsa was the same for cars. They came out with a bunch of style choices that most people don't really care for, but the status of having a telsa (at least until recently) was a more powerful driver so they bought the car. Other auto manufacturers interpret this as that its what the consumer wants (or will accept) and change accordingly, especially if it also saves them money. Then boom, we get cars with crappy UI. So I guess my theory is that if an industry has a clear leader whose product offers status along with function, they can make the customer accept pretty much whatever they want. After that, the competition just copies it hoping to keep what market share they have.

checker 4y ago

Marques Brownlee (MKBHD) mentioned that his right capacitive turn signal button is occasionally unresponsive with his Model S Plaid and he's had to resort to lane changes without a turn signal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34VZzBWBDN0&t=648s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34VZzBWBDN0&t=648s Granted, this is one anecdotal case. But when spending over 100K on a car, features like this should be bullet-proof. Actually ... scratch that. Features like this should be bullet-proof because they have been a solved problem for ~50+ years. Tesla is sacrificing safety for minimal cost savings and/or style points.

spaceman_2020 4y ago
Features like these should be bulletproof because they pose a serious safety hazard. Safety features should be priority number one for any car manufacturer. You can ship with a crappy infotainment system but please don’t screw around with basic safety.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  In the first place, how are non-working blinkers not illegal to drive with?
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago
    How are they not illegal to sell to drivers? I am continually astonished about the social experiment being done on drivers buying these cars and others who have no choice but to share the road with them.
  - iotku 4y ago
    You can use hand signals, but obviously that's far from ideal.

S_A_P 4y ago

Do you feel like you’re happy with your model s given the issues/compromises of the yoke you mentioned above? The industry wide reduction of real buttons/switches and gauges is something that gives me pause on my next car purchase. I was initially thinking of getting a golf r but the infotainment and steering wheel capacitive buttons are almost universally criticized as really bad and there not being any real way to fix it. When I saw the yoke I thought it was a concept car and they would come to their senses and use a wheel for production. My wish list for an electric car: 1) be a dumb car. Minimal screens/animations/annoyances 2) if you do OTA updates I want to be able to reject a version and or revert to any version from any other version of the system software 3) don’t track me or show me ads 4) no feature on the car should require additional or recurring payments to use with very limited exceptions (thinking navigation updates etc) specifically don’t disable something on my car because I don’t pay future moneys for its use. 5) I’m fine with fast but I would rather have a reasonably quick car that pushes 400miles of range without needing a 200kwh battery. I get that big motors also help make big regenerative power but I would like a car that has similar performance to say an Audi s4 or bmw 340m but electric. 6) simple is fine but the model 3 is oversimplified. they really can’t put simple gauges in front of the driver? I feel like every feature of most teslas is built for this looming full self driving where some of these features make more sense. I think the odds today are pretty good that someone who takes delivery today of a new Tesla will send it to the junkyard before fsd really fully self drives. 7) don’t try to drive for me and allow tweaking of things like brake /steering feel, suspension settings.

tom9729 4y ago
The VW CEO recently said that physical buttons would be coming back sometime this year, so you may be able to get that Golf after all. :-) https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/tech/vw-infotainment-and-touchscreen-problems/ https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/tech/vw-infotainment-...

renewiltord 4y ago

Jesus the capacitive touch signaling is astoundingly stupid. The horn, though. In decades of driving, I've used my horn maybe once or twice.

sometimes_all 4y ago
Here in India we have to use horns twice a minute. If they want to sell cars in the developing world, they better make their inputs tactile or people won’t buy them.
- renewiltord 4y ago
  Yeah but the Model 3 is a 58 lakh car before the import duty. If you have to pay 1 crore for a car, you're going to make your driver suffer through the horn. IMHO India will have indigenous EVs far before Tesla.
- laserdancepony 4y ago
  I doubt India is of any concern to Tesla, except for cheap labor.
int_19h 4y ago
When that rare case happens, though, it can be rather important to signal fast.
abrawill 4y ago
How often have you used your airbag?
- renewiltord 4y ago
  About as many times, but the key thing is that the horn is only useful if I'm static since otherwise it's faster for me to evade than honk. I estimate ~0.5 s to 1 s net delay to action if I were to honk, with 0.5 s to 1 s delay in action from other person if they're fast. At a 2 s delay, unless I'm not moving, evasion + braking seems superior. And evasion is made harder while honking. I've had many times where people run red lights in front of me (I live in SF) but I've never honked. It's frequently too late to do anything so I just brake.

int_19h 4y ago

Sounds almost like the flat web UI that took over the desktops is now infecting physical gadgets.

solarkraft 4y ago

Makes you wonder when they'll turn the pedals and steering wheel into capacitive touch interfaces.

Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
Worse, they'll make them into the touch-screen where you have to do a specific gesture to turn right, a different one to turn left, and one needing both hands to apply the brakes.

l1tany11 4y ago

Took me very little time to learn the signal buttons. I honestly prefer it now. I just barely wiggle my thumb. Laziness level 1000 reached! I never use the horn… but yeah the middle airbag thing should just be a horn button. Leave the touch horn control if you want, no downside I guess.