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Saudi Arabia jails two Wikipedia staff
- abvdasker 4y agoAdd this to the long list of actions by the Saudis demonstrating that they are probably the most unambiguously evil government in the world. But they seldom get any criticism from mainstream US media and politicians because of the Saudis' vast oil resources. Imagine how much better off the world would be today had the US government chosen to topple the Saudis after 9/11 (for which everyone knows they were actually responsible) instead of pursuing irrelevant boondoggles in Iraq and Afghanistan. Funding for Sunni terrorists would have been disrupted which probably would have had a far greater impact to reduce global terrorism than anything else the US did. Hell, even the neocons just in it for oil would have been happy with that.
- nickff 4y agoI’d agree that the Saudi Arabia does many bad things, but “probably the most unambiguously evil government in the world” is quite a stretch. Russia is currently throwing conscripts into an unprovoked war in Ukraine. Meanwhile, China has millions of people in ‘re-education’ camps, and supports North Korea, which is itself basically a slave-state. There are also a number of very troubling states throughout central Africa and Asia, such as Afghanistan, which is descending further into government-led disaster.
- abvdasker 4y agoIf you think Saudi Arabia doesn't rely on modern slave labor I would urge you to learn more about their treatment of immigrants. And there is simply no comparing the status of women in China or Russia to Saudi Arabia. Combine that with Saudi Arabia's barbaric public beheadings and you're talking about a modern dystopia that many in the US would rather ignore out of convenience. Another common response is to distract from their crimes by hyping up other bogeymen in more direct competition with the US.
- JumpCrisscross 4y agoQualifying state-level evil at these scales is invitation for bickering and reductionism. Saudi Arabia is indistinguishable enough from the most evil regimes in power today that one can have a reasonable argument about whether it belongs there. That sets it apart in degree from America and, I would argue, China, and in kind from Iceland or Canada.
- aliswe 4y agoPublic beheadings have to my knowledge stopped ... Should be on the level of USA now, with executions behind doors!
- troon-lover 4y ago[dead]
- comte7092 4y agoYour comment is a textbook example of the asymmetry of media coverage and framing around Saudi Arabia vs US foes. See: - saudis treatment of immigrant labor. - saudis treatment of women. - saudis war in Yemen. - extrajudicial killings and imprisonment of journalists. - etc. For every criticism you cite against a US enemy/competitor, one can find an analogy in Saudi.
- miguelazo 4y ago[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> the Ukrainian government spent the previous several years murdering 10,000 plus of their Russian-speaking citizens in the east before February 2022 I know I shouldn’t ask, but curious for a source painting what’s going on in the Donbas as Ukraine murdering its own.
- miguelazo 4y agoI suppose that shelling civilians doesn’t equate with murder in your book? https://www.crisisgroup.org/content/conflict-ukraines-donbas-visual-explainer https://www.crisisgroup.org/content/conflict-ukraines-donbas... https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-chapters/ukraine https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-chapters/ukrai...
- petre 4y agoEvery armed conflict is a threat to civilian lives. Had the Russians not invaded Ukraine in 2014, not long after failing to install a pro-Russian administration in Kiev, there would have been no armed conflict. Yes, minorities in Ukraine had rights and protections left over from the Soviet era that were revoked after the 2014 invasion. The radicalization of Ukrainian society happened precisely because of Russia's 2014 invasion and 2022 war. Any attempt on the part of Ukraine to join the EU would imply the reinstatement of minority rights and protections in a way that is compatible with EU legislation.
- blub 4y agoWhat do you mean by “failing to install a pro-Russian administration in Kiev”? The Maidan revolution (some call it coup) forced out the elected president which was perhaps pro-Russia but mostly just corrupt, as were most Ukrainian politicians. He at least had the right idea of having Ukraine act as a neutral country between two power blocs. As for minority rights, Ukraine doesn’t seem to be in a hurry to restore them, as repeatedly criticized by Hungary and Romania. Ukraine is becoming a very nationalist, illiberal state, the odds of it joining the EU are slim to none.
- devwastaken 4y agoYou can be a woman and own land, drive vehicles, have a job, etc in those countries. You cannot do this in Saudi Arabia. You are under religious zealots whom will imprison and kill for saying anything against their beliefs/God. While Russia and china are somewhat along these lines, it's not to the same level.
- aliswe 4y agoYes, you can ...
- topkai22 4y agoThe information regarding laws regarding women is out of date- the driving ban ended in 2018 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44576795 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44576795) and the government is explicitly trying to increase the female labor force participation rate (https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2021/04/21/the-spectacular-surge-of-the-saudi-female-labor-force/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2021/04/21...). I couldn't quickly find a good source on property ownership, which is obviously still problematic, but Wikipedia indicates that at least some individual ownership is permitted now (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arab...). One of the contradictions of Mohammed Bin Salman (the current Crown Prince of Saudi, known as MBS) is that while he is violent authoritarian that has been cracking down on civil rights/dissent he has been affording women more rights.
- devwastaken 4y agoDriving ban ending doesn't mean the culture has. Saudis are not progressive, they spend a lot of money ensuring they look progressive. In reality we rarely if ever get to see what it's truly like.
- jacooper 4y agoSure, thats why more than half the cars on the roads there are driven by women now, and CUV sales have skyrocketed.
- sneak 4y ago[flagged]
- musicale 4y agoThings are getting better in the US - women can now vote and obtain drivers' licenses, for example. And slavery is banned in all states. More recently, access to Facebook and Youtube has mostly been restored. Schools have reopened in many cities. Even president-for-life Trump was eventually removed from office in a relatively bloodless revolution.
- sneak 4y ago> And slavery is banned in all states. This is, as pointed out in the 13th amendment, not correct. Slavery is only conditionally banned, and it continues under official policy. Millions are still enslaved in the US.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y agoI don't like it but without SA, what allies does the US even have in the area? I wish Iraq would have turned out differently.
- aesh2Xa1 4y agoIsrael and Kuwait are both considered allies to the US within the region. Maybe others, but those come to mind. Saudi Arabia's GDP is worth double and quadruple those, respectively. However, that number isn't so far ahead as to be irreplaceable. Relationships change, too. The movement in Iran now has the West's popular interest and support.
- rakoo 4y agoSo, do we agree that personal interests are more important than human rights for the US government? I don't agree with that view but at least it's honest to admit it.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> we agree that personal interests are more important than human rights for the US government Yes? Is this in question? Obviously. That doesn’t make human rights irrelevant.
- comte7092 4y agoBasically every country sans Iran… (with some other small exceptions)
- miguelazo 4y agoWish that Iraq had turned out differently? The outcome was extremely predictable. But that didn’t stop us from trying again in Libya and Syria!
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
- the-printer 4y ago[flagged]
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- ceejayoz 4y ago> Imagine how much better off the world would be today had the US government chosen to topple the Saudis after 9/11… I think you’ve learned the wrong lessons from the Iraq and Afghan wars.
- smusamashah 4y agoIf you think Saudi the most evil government you should consider US itself somewhere on the same line for all the things it has been doing on lots of foreign soils.
- stubish 4y agoI think any non-Muslim force invading Saudi Arabia would quickly find they are fighting most of the Muslim world, including parts of their own Muslim populations. Because Mecca is in Saudi Arabia and it would be very easy to spin an invasion into an attack on the religion itself.
- bboygravity 4y agoWould the USD and by extension the USA even be possible (in their current powerful form) without SA creating a world wide artificial demand for the USD by selling oil denoted in USD? Isn't that the essence of why Saudi Arabia gets to do whatever they want without the world police interfering?
- jacooper 4y ago> they are probably the most unambiguously evil government in the world. Compared to the many US invasions and their support of the occupation in Plaestine or Russia and what they are doing in Syria, Libya and many other countries or China's brain washing Muslims, they are nothing. Thats without talking about North Korea of course, which are on a whole new level.
- DoItToMe81 4y agoSaudi Arabia being attacked by the west would be a disaster that would ignite the whole Muslim world. Al-Qaeda portrayed almost every western action, even the Red Cross being in the middle east, as an action by an invading 'crusader' force that wanted to destroy Islam. Could you imagine the credibility this would give them, considering the location of Mecca?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- akolbe 4y agoFor context see the report on the recent bans of Arabic Wikipedia admins by the Wikimedia Foundation in Wikipedia's community newspaper, the Signpost: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2023-01-01/News_and_notes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2... Note that the people jailed since 2020 are unpaid volunteers – not paid staff, as the headline implies.
- akolbe 4y agoAnother report, by DAWN (the org mentioned in the Guardian article): https://dawnmena.org/saudi-arabia-government-agents-infiltrate-wikipedia-sentence-independent-wikipedia-administrators-to-prison/ https://dawnmena.org/saudi-arabia-government-agents-infiltra...
- nostoploss 4y agoBe ready to see big large banners on Wikipedia begging for donation to help free these people.
- aaron695 4y ago[dead]
- jacooper 4y agoNot surprising for a dictatorship regime. I doubt they are the first country to do this.