5 ms·

If they can make L5/6 to get that salary then they're probably pretty good actually

m00x 4y ago
You can make it to L5/6 without being a good engineer. I interviewed several Uber/Amazon engineers and they couldn't solve a simple problem (very easy problem that most bootcamp grads could do). A lot of them get there by being interviewed by other bad engineers, and just float when the market is strong, or use politics to get in a good position. A guy at my company just merges library upgrade PRs blindly. That's all he does. He fought getting dependabot up on Github, but he finally conceded. He hasn't done a commit since. I've reported it to management, but I was told it wasn't our team's responsibility. There are tons of dark corners to hide in at big companies.
- laidoffamazon 4y ago
  Which companies do have good mid level engineers then, if you believe L5's at Amazon are stupid?
  - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
    He didn’t say that L5’s at Amazon are stupid. He said that there are lots of L5’s at Amazon who are bad engineers. It doesn’t even have to be a majority rather than a noticeable minority.
    - laidoffamazon 4y ago
      Eh, it's a big enough minority that it paints all of us (as someone that used to be an Amazon L5 who constantly received microaggressions from others for being "stupid" because I worked at Amazon) poorly.
- Firmwarrior 4y ago
  > I interviewed several Uber/Amazon engineers and they couldn't solve a simple problem (very easy problem that most bootcamp grads could do). I don't know you personally, and I don't want to start a flame war here, but if there's one thing FAANG senior engineers are good at, it's solving simple coding problems in interviews If you're saying they can't actually proactively get useful work done on their own, or quickly ship quality products, or talk to customers, I could understand. But basically the only thing that you can be 100% sure of is that almost everyone at those big companies passed some arbitrary coding tests
  - 8note 4y ago
    If you've moved up from L4 to L6 at a faang, chances are that you haven't spent a lot of time solving simple interviewing coding problems. You've likely spent time on the interviewer side, but the number of problems you're interacting with is small. At some point, a faang engineer was good at solving those, but that might not be their current state
  - metadat 4y ago
    This runs contrary to my firsthand experience. Have been disappointed by Amazon engineers who couldn't solve simple level-1 problems in an interview. I know there are smart people there. Somewhere. Else. One time the candidate had a bunch of video games out in plain view (Switch and Xbox, IIRC). Apparently couldn't be bothered to put them away for the remote interview. They proceeded to flail and scored a zero on every question. What are people thinking in these scenarios? -_-
  - bitanarch 4y ago
    ex-AAPL senior software engineer here. You generally only get good at interview problems when you're entering the door. After that, interview questions generally have nothing to do with your job. Also, as you move beyond entry level positions, political skills, communications skills and connections becomes more and more important. Unless you happen to be at some massive growth teams at the right times, it's basically impossible to move beyond ICT4 or L5 unless both you and your boss have very good grasp of politics.
  - TrackerFF 4y ago
    Depends on how long you've been in a position, and if you've had time to practice. 5 years out of college, worked in a single place all those years, without ever touching data structures or algorithms under the hood? Yes, I can absolutely see even experienced programmers stumble on relatively "easy" questions. But that's just the gatekeeper to get them inside the door. You could be a good engineer without knowing how to find the optimal solution to some niche problem, on the spot.
- _gabe_ 4y ago
  > I interviewed several Uber/Amazon engineers and they couldn't solve a simple problem (very easy problem that most bootcamp grads could do). That's probably why you're interviewing them. I doubt the ones who are good at their job are leaving as much as the ones who aren't. This is like reverse survivorship bias.
- muh_gradle 4y ago
  Ok I'm going to bite. What is this simple problem that Amazon and Uber engineers can't solve?
- Sparkyte 4y ago
  I know where the real Amazon talent is at there. However I won't say. Most of the talent isn't great and just fills the void of too much work for one person to do so that the amazing talent can have a weekend.
- lhorie 4y ago
  No offense but this comment reeks of bias. For one thing, if by your own analysis, these companies' interviewing processes aren't effective, there's logically a conclusion that yours also aren't, given that interview processes are fairly similar among big tech companies. I've even also heard of an interviewer trying to tell a director with a straight face that a high level IC candidate (L6/L7 IIRC) from a prestigious big tech couldn't solve a "simple" problem at one of those companies. Leetcode style questions aren't even necessarily good proxies for whether an engineer is actually effective at their job or not (and yes, a good number of FAANGers openly admit here and elsewhere that they needed to grind leetcode to pass interviews at these companies). Another thing is that Uber and Amazon are fairly competitive w/ other more prestigious FAANGs in terms of compensation. A decent staff eng at Uber isn't going to be very interested in grinding leetcode for a equivalent role at Google, the compensation delta is just not appealing[0] [0] https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Uber,Google&track=Software%20Engineer https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Uber,Google&track=Software%2...
- roncesvalles 4y ago
  I agree to an extent. When Amazon goes on a hiring spree, they really do open up the floodgates. I suppose they rely on their infamous PIP-and-fire process to weed out those who shouldn't have come through. "Hire first, evaluate later."
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    We all know the 80/20 rule. You’re looking for those 20%. You need to hire more and more people to find them.
ZephyrBlu 4y ago
4 YOE is probably SDE2 or SDE3, which is mid (L5) or senior (L6) in Amazon levels.
Sparkyte 4y ago
You can get promoted by just showing up sometimes.

m00x 4y ago

You can make it to L5/6 without being a good engineer. I interviewed several Uber/Amazon engineers and they couldn't solve a simple problem (very easy problem that most bootcamp grads could do). A lot of them get there by being interviewed by other bad engineers, and just float when the market is strong, or use politics to get in a good position. A guy at my company just merges library upgrade PRs blindly. That's all he does. He fought getting dependabot up on Github, but he finally conceded. He hasn't done a commit since. I've reported it to management, but I was told it wasn't our team's responsibility. There are tons of dark corners to hide in at big companies.

laidoffamazon 4y ago
Which companies do have good mid level engineers then, if you believe L5's at Amazon are stupid?
- LudwigNagasena 4y ago
  He didn’t say that L5’s at Amazon are stupid. He said that there are lots of L5’s at Amazon who are bad engineers. It doesn’t even have to be a majority rather than a noticeable minority.
  - laidoffamazon 4y ago
    Eh, it's a big enough minority that it paints all of us (as someone that used to be an Amazon L5 who constantly received microaggressions from others for being "stupid" because I worked at Amazon) poorly.
Firmwarrior 4y ago
> I interviewed several Uber/Amazon engineers and they couldn't solve a simple problem (very easy problem that most bootcamp grads could do). I don't know you personally, and I don't want to start a flame war here, but if there's one thing FAANG senior engineers are good at, it's solving simple coding problems in interviews If you're saying they can't actually proactively get useful work done on their own, or quickly ship quality products, or talk to customers, I could understand. But basically the only thing that you can be 100% sure of is that almost everyone at those big companies passed some arbitrary coding tests
- 8note 4y ago
  If you've moved up from L4 to L6 at a faang, chances are that you haven't spent a lot of time solving simple interviewing coding problems. You've likely spent time on the interviewer side, but the number of problems you're interacting with is small. At some point, a faang engineer was good at solving those, but that might not be their current state
- metadat 4y ago
  This runs contrary to my firsthand experience. Have been disappointed by Amazon engineers who couldn't solve simple level-1 problems in an interview. I know there are smart people there. Somewhere. Else. One time the candidate had a bunch of video games out in plain view (Switch and Xbox, IIRC). Apparently couldn't be bothered to put them away for the remote interview. They proceeded to flail and scored a zero on every question. What are people thinking in these scenarios? -_-
- bitanarch 4y ago
  ex-AAPL senior software engineer here. You generally only get good at interview problems when you're entering the door. After that, interview questions generally have nothing to do with your job. Also, as you move beyond entry level positions, political skills, communications skills and connections becomes more and more important. Unless you happen to be at some massive growth teams at the right times, it's basically impossible to move beyond ICT4 or L5 unless both you and your boss have very good grasp of politics.
- TrackerFF 4y ago
  Depends on how long you've been in a position, and if you've had time to practice. 5 years out of college, worked in a single place all those years, without ever touching data structures or algorithms under the hood? Yes, I can absolutely see even experienced programmers stumble on relatively "easy" questions. But that's just the gatekeeper to get them inside the door. You could be a good engineer without knowing how to find the optimal solution to some niche problem, on the spot.
_gabe_ 4y ago
> I interviewed several Uber/Amazon engineers and they couldn't solve a simple problem (very easy problem that most bootcamp grads could do). That's probably why you're interviewing them. I doubt the ones who are good at their job are leaving as much as the ones who aren't. This is like reverse survivorship bias.
muh_gradle 4y ago
Ok I'm going to bite. What is this simple problem that Amazon and Uber engineers can't solve?
Sparkyte 4y ago
I know where the real Amazon talent is at there. However I won't say. Most of the talent isn't great and just fills the void of too much work for one person to do so that the amazing talent can have a weekend.
lhorie 4y ago
No offense but this comment reeks of bias. For one thing, if by your own analysis, these companies' interviewing processes aren't effective, there's logically a conclusion that yours also aren't, given that interview processes are fairly similar among big tech companies. I've even also heard of an interviewer trying to tell a director with a straight face that a high level IC candidate (L6/L7 IIRC) from a prestigious big tech couldn't solve a "simple" problem at one of those companies. Leetcode style questions aren't even necessarily good proxies for whether an engineer is actually effective at their job or not (and yes, a good number of FAANGers openly admit here and elsewhere that they needed to grind leetcode to pass interviews at these companies). Another thing is that Uber and Amazon are fairly competitive w/ other more prestigious FAANGs in terms of compensation. A decent staff eng at Uber isn't going to be very interested in grinding leetcode for a equivalent role at Google, the compensation delta is just not appealing[0] [0] https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Uber,Google&track=Software%20Engineer https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Uber,Google&track=Software%2...
roncesvalles 4y ago
I agree to an extent. When Amazon goes on a hiring spree, they really do open up the floodgates. I suppose they rely on their infamous PIP-and-fire process to weed out those who shouldn't have come through. "Hire first, evaluate later."
- nemo44x 4y ago
  We all know the 80/20 rule. You’re looking for those 20%. You need to hire more and more people to find them.

ZephyrBlu 4y ago

4 YOE is probably SDE2 or SDE3, which is mid (L5) or senior (L6) in Amazon levels.

Sparkyte 4y ago

You can get promoted by just showing up sometimes.