4 ms·

What should marriage be, in your view? What should it mean?

Dylan16807 4y ago
It's a way to strengthen and formalize a long-term relationship. Very good if you're having kids. But you should probably live together for at least half a year before you get married.
- Georgelemental 4y ago
  So, for you the value is mostly in the ceremony, the formality, making a relationship "official"?
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    What is the point of this? Also let me go to the dictionary: the legally or formally recognized union of two people as partners in a personal relationship (historically and in some jurisdictions specifically a union between a man and a woman). And again I'm not being anti-marriage, it's good overall, but it's not flawless, and there are ways to make its interaction with the rest of society more or less flawed. The point where prostitution is treated as inherently immoral, because of marriage, is adding too much baggage to marriage. You can have both without hurting marriage in a way that undermines society.
    - Georgelemental 4y ago
      My point is, there are two ways of thinking about marriage: - It's a ceremony, a procedure, a word. It has emotional/social value, but it can be modified or reversed without too much trouble if the married couple desires it. - It's a permanent engagement into a deep responsibility, a vow that's designed to be hard to undo. A deliberate choice to trade away being able to have romantic relationships with whoever, and in exchange gain the lasting stability needed to raise a family. When society strongly couples sex with marriage, especially with monogamous, non-incestuous marriage of the second kind, it aligns the passion of sex—a very powerful force—with perpetuating civilization, via families and children. When society permits selling sex for money, it takes that same powerful force of sexual desire, and puts it instead in the service of commercial exploitation and instant gratification, thereby weakening civilization.
      - Dylan16807 4y ago
        Let's stick with the second model. That's a perfectly good model. But tying sex to it that strongly seems pretty artificial to me. Sure, that's a way to make marriage stronger. But we could also require marriage for car ownership and it would have a similar effect. Marriage is about bonding together, not getting a reward.
        Georgelemental 4y ago
        > Marriage is about bonding together, not getting a reward. The reward of sex, family, and a lasting relationship with someone you love, is only half the story. That reward is paired with sacrifice: marriage is exclusive and difficult to break. One and one's parter are in it for the long haul. The price ensures that the rewards are appreciated to their proper value. It incentivizes people to be extra careful about marrying the right person, and to treat their partner and their marriage with the respect and care they deserve. Unrestricted sexual promiscuity with whoever is fundamentally incompatible with that kind of commitment.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        The sacrifice encourages people to be extra careful about marrying the right person. The reward encourages people to not be careful and to rush into marriage without testing whether they have the right person. > Unrestricted sexual promiscuity with whoever is fundamentally incompatible with that kind of commitment. I'm not suggesting that married people use prostitutes. Also allowing prostitution doesn't imply there are no restrictions.
        Georgelemental 4y ago
        Sacrifice without reward encourages people not to bother with marriage at all. The existence of prostitution also discourages marriage by providing an alternatove source of sex. And it can also be a source of temptation that weakens extant marriages.

It's a way to strengthen and formalize a long-term relationship. Very good if you're having kids. But you should probably live together for at least half a year before you get married.

Georgelemental 4y ago
So, for you the value is mostly in the ceremony, the formality, making a relationship "official"?
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  What is the point of this? Also let me go to the dictionary: the legally or formally recognized union of two people as partners in a personal relationship (historically and in some jurisdictions specifically a union between a man and a woman). And again I'm not being anti-marriage, it's good overall, but it's not flawless, and there are ways to make its interaction with the rest of society more or less flawed. The point where prostitution is treated as inherently immoral, because of marriage, is adding too much baggage to marriage. You can have both without hurting marriage in a way that undermines society.
  - Georgelemental 4y ago
    My point is, there are two ways of thinking about marriage: - It's a ceremony, a procedure, a word. It has emotional/social value, but it can be modified or reversed without too much trouble if the married couple desires it. - It's a permanent engagement into a deep responsibility, a vow that's designed to be hard to undo. A deliberate choice to trade away being able to have romantic relationships with whoever, and in exchange gain the lasting stability needed to raise a family. When society strongly couples sex with marriage, especially with monogamous, non-incestuous marriage of the second kind, it aligns the passion of sex—a very powerful force—with perpetuating civilization, via families and children. When society permits selling sex for money, it takes that same powerful force of sexual desire, and puts it instead in the service of commercial exploitation and instant gratification, thereby weakening civilization.
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      Let's stick with the second model. That's a perfectly good model. But tying sex to it that strongly seems pretty artificial to me. Sure, that's a way to make marriage stronger. But we could also require marriage for car ownership and it would have a similar effect. Marriage is about bonding together, not getting a reward.
      - Georgelemental 4y ago
        > Marriage is about bonding together, not getting a reward. The reward of sex, family, and a lasting relationship with someone you love, is only half the story. That reward is paired with sacrifice: marriage is exclusive and difficult to break. One and one's parter are in it for the long haul. The price ensures that the rewards are appreciated to their proper value. It incentivizes people to be extra careful about marrying the right person, and to treat their partner and their marriage with the respect and care they deserve. Unrestricted sexual promiscuity with whoever is fundamentally incompatible with that kind of commitment.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        The sacrifice encourages people to be extra careful about marrying the right person. The reward encourages people to not be careful and to rush into marriage without testing whether they have the right person. > Unrestricted sexual promiscuity with whoever is fundamentally incompatible with that kind of commitment. I'm not suggesting that married people use prostitutes. Also allowing prostitution doesn't imply there are no restrictions.
        Georgelemental 4y ago
        Sacrifice without reward encourages people not to bother with marriage at all. The existence of prostitution also discourages marriage by providing an alternatove source of sex. And it can also be a source of temptation that weakens extant marriages.