3 ms·

> And tying sex to marriage causes a lot of issues... What issues, in your view? From my perspective, it solves a lot of issues. Marriage ensures that society

> And tying sex to marriage causes a lot of issues... What issues, in your view? From my perspective, it solves a lot of issues. Marriage ensures that society knows exactly who is responsible for the consequences of sex. That's why the institution of marriage has been developed independently by so many different cultures, and has endured for so many centuries. (And there is always the potential for consequences; no contraception is 100% effective, and on top of that there are the psychological effects)

Dylan16807 4y ago
I'm not arguing against marriage at all. But tying it very tightly to sex means people rush into marriage more, before they're entirely sure about compatibility, and can also tie into a feeling that you can't leave that leaks into widespread resentment for marriage in general.
- Georgelemental 4y ago
  What should marriage be, in your view? What should it mean?
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    It's a way to strengthen and formalize a long-term relationship. Very good if you're having kids. But you should probably live together for at least half a year before you get married.
    - Georgelemental 4y ago
      So, for you the value is mostly in the ceremony, the formality, making a relationship "official"?
      - Dylan16807 4y ago
        What is the point of this? Also let me go to the dictionary: the legally or formally recognized union of two people as partners in a personal relationship (historically and in some jurisdictions specifically a union between a man and a woman). And again I'm not being anti-marriage, it's good overall, but it's not flawless, and there are ways to make its interaction with the rest of society more or less flawed. The point where prostitution is treated as inherently immoral, because of marriage, is adding too much baggage to marriage. You can have both without hurting marriage in a way that undermines society.
        Georgelemental 4y ago
        My point is, there are two ways of thinking about marriage: - It's a ceremony, a procedure, a word. It has emotional/social value, but it can be modified or reversed without too much trouble if the married couple desires it. - It's a permanent engagement into a deep responsibility, a vow that's designed to be hard to undo. A deliberate choice to trade away being able to have romantic relationships with whoever, and in exchange gain the lasting stability needed to raise a family. When society strongly couples sex with marriage, especially with monogamous, non-incestuous marriage of the second kind, it aligns the passion of sex—a very powerful force—with perpetuating civilization, via families and children. When society permits selling sex for money, it takes that same powerful force of sexual desire, and puts it instead in the service of commercial exploitation and instant gratification, thereby weakening civilization.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        Let's stick with the second model. That's a perfectly good model. But tying sex to it that strongly seems pretty artificial to me. Sure, that's a way to make marriage stronger. But we could also require marriage for car ownership and it would have a similar effect. Marriage is about bonding together, not getting a reward.
        Georgelemental 4y ago
        > Marriage is about bonding together, not getting a reward. The reward of sex, family, and a lasting relationship with someone you love, is only half the story. That reward is paired with sacrifice: marriage is exclusive and difficult to break. One and one's parter are in it for the long haul. The price ensures that the rewards are appreciated to their proper value. It incentivizes people to be extra careful about marrying the right person, and to treat their partner and their marriage with the respect and care they deserve. Unrestricted sexual promiscuity with whoever is fundamentally incompatible with that kind of commitment.

Dylan16807 4y ago

I'm not arguing against marriage at all. But tying it very tightly to sex means people rush into marriage more, before they're entirely sure about compatibility, and can also tie into a feeling that you can't leave that leaks into widespread resentment for marriage in general.

Georgelemental 4y ago
What should marriage be, in your view? What should it mean?
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  It's a way to strengthen and formalize a long-term relationship. Very good if you're having kids. But you should probably live together for at least half a year before you get married.
  - Georgelemental 4y ago
    So, for you the value is mostly in the ceremony, the formality, making a relationship "official"?
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      What is the point of this? Also let me go to the dictionary: the legally or formally recognized union of two people as partners in a personal relationship (historically and in some jurisdictions specifically a union between a man and a woman). And again I'm not being anti-marriage, it's good overall, but it's not flawless, and there are ways to make its interaction with the rest of society more or less flawed. The point where prostitution is treated as inherently immoral, because of marriage, is adding too much baggage to marriage. You can have both without hurting marriage in a way that undermines society.
      - Georgelemental 4y ago
        My point is, there are two ways of thinking about marriage: - It's a ceremony, a procedure, a word. It has emotional/social value, but it can be modified or reversed without too much trouble if the married couple desires it. - It's a permanent engagement into a deep responsibility, a vow that's designed to be hard to undo. A deliberate choice to trade away being able to have romantic relationships with whoever, and in exchange gain the lasting stability needed to raise a family. When society strongly couples sex with marriage, especially with monogamous, non-incestuous marriage of the second kind, it aligns the passion of sex—a very powerful force—with perpetuating civilization, via families and children. When society permits selling sex for money, it takes that same powerful force of sexual desire, and puts it instead in the service of commercial exploitation and instant gratification, thereby weakening civilization.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        Let's stick with the second model. That's a perfectly good model. But tying sex to it that strongly seems pretty artificial to me. Sure, that's a way to make marriage stronger. But we could also require marriage for car ownership and it would have a similar effect. Marriage is about bonding together, not getting a reward.
        Georgelemental 4y ago
        > Marriage is about bonding together, not getting a reward. The reward of sex, family, and a lasting relationship with someone you love, is only half the story. That reward is paired with sacrifice: marriage is exclusive and difficult to break. One and one's parter are in it for the long haul. The price ensures that the rewards are appreciated to their proper value. It incentivizes people to be extra careful about marrying the right person, and to treat their partner and their marriage with the respect and care they deserve. Unrestricted sexual promiscuity with whoever is fundamentally incompatible with that kind of commitment.