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Why is the answer to this question always “Safari sucks”? Are there no good PWAs that run on Android? Are there none that, though perhaps smaller is scope, run

by MBCook 4y ago

Why is the answer to this question always “Safari sucks”? Are there no good PWAs that run on Android? Are there none that, though perhaps smaller is scope, run well in Safari? People have been advocating for PWAs for a very long time now but it’s incredibly hard to get examples of good ones. There is always some complaint about Safari instead.

Gigachad 4y ago
Telegram is probably the best example of a PWA. It's not as good as the mobile app, especially for gestures, but it's better than a lot of native apps.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  Telegram really is an outlier among messengers. Each version is developed by like one person, and they are all feature-rich, feature-complete, fast and smooth.
cglong 4y ago
Apple's stronghold affects PWA feasibility on Android too. If I have to write a PWA for Android and a native app for iOS to cover gaps in Safari, why choose a PWA at all?
- MBCook 4y ago
  Apple may be ~50% of the market in the US but it’s ~20% of the market worldwide. On the desktop anyone on any mainstream OS can use Chrome or FF. Yet someone the total lack of PWA success is 100% Safari’s fault. Look at all those users I listed above. How are there no common/well known PWAs if they’re so great? People use websites like the Google Suite and Figma and such. They use web apps built as desktop apps in Electron. They use native apps. Almost no one uses PWAs. Even if Figma or Gmail or whatever is available to be saved as a PWA it doesn’t seem to be commonly done. There must be some other problem than Safari. It can’t be the big issue.
  - toyg 4y ago
    > ~20% of the market worldwide But a much higher percentage of the profitable market, in terms of app income.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      There are many markets where it is hardly a presence out of those 20% and not every company is a global corporation.
madeofpalk 4y ago
Google, to some degree, worked with Twitter to make twitter.com a 'flagship example' of what PWAs could be. If that's the best Google could come up with, the platform stands zero chance.
- lern_too_spel 4y ago
  I prefer the Twitter PWA to the native app. What do you think is wrong with it?
  - jacooper 4y ago
    Filled with empty loading pages? Not smooth at all compared to the native app? And having zero animations doesn't help at all
    - steve1977 4y ago
      And that’s for an app that is actually trivial.
    - fsflover 4y ago
      Twitter is actively trying to force people to use the app by making web experience miserable.
    - lern_too_spel 4y ago
      Everything loads instantly for me, including the app because I always have a browser process running anyway. What browser are you using?
TobyTheDog123 4y ago
Because Safari sucks. The reason iOS and Google/Android PWAs suck is because Apple does everything in its power to make them suck: - Complex and user-unfriendly "add-to-homescreen" functionality - Limited/trailing functionality for native APIs - The obnoxious url/browser bar persistent at the bottom of the page, with horrendous and uncustomizable hiding/showing of said bar. People advocate for PWAs, but I never use them because as an end-user they're awful to use, because developers can't create them to the quality of native applications because of these limitations. Of course the complaints go to Safari in that case. They absolutely could have PWAs be of higher quality, but they don't, for obvious reasons.
- MBCook 4y ago
  I get why they suck on iOS. Why aren’t they on Android? Windows? Linux? MacOS? Existing PWAs should be better known, especially in HN-like/tech circles. But that’s not what I see.
  - TobyTheDog123 4y ago
    I can't entirely speak for Android, but I assume that Google has similar nonsense (as evidenced by sideloading being a pain to the average user) For Windows, Linux, and MacOS, there's no real need for them, or not enough need for them to exist. There are no policies or guidelines to follow, there is no 30% tax. The browsers people use on desktop devices provide everything that developers need and can reasonably expect of the platform. There aren't any usability differences, there are barely any performance differences, and there are barely any feature differences. In fact, I think many desktop end-users would prefer the app to be web-based because it feels so native. In addition, it's what another commenter said - if it can't be on iOS, then what's even the point of having one?
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Because many countries hardly have an iOS presence and there are tons of companies that only care about the local market.
- 4y ago
dylan604 4y ago
>There is always some complaint about Safari instead. when one app is used by roughly half of all mobile users, that's not something you can ignore. so complaining about that one app when these conversations come up does not seem out of place. essentially, the conversation is something like: - PWAs are great! -- How well do they run on Safari? - PWAs are great on other platforms. -- So about half of mobile users? Doesn't seem that great to me
- MBCook 4y ago
  Safari is used by half of US users. Worldwide it’s closer to 20%. And the desktop is totally open. I’m not saying I expect PWAs to be huge, but it seems like they should be more notable PWAs if people really wanted them so bad.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    meh, semantics. the point is that there's a large enough audience that it doesn't add up to making sense for dev time.
esprehn 4y ago
There's a bunch that run very well on Android: Twitter, Instagram, Uber, Lyft, even TikTok all have very good PWAs. TikTok aggressively funnels you into the native app for various business reasons, but the experience is well polished if they'd let you use it all the time. Safari (really that iOS won't let you pick a different browser) has definitely been holding back the growth of PWAs though. Without decent install to home screen support (apple doesn't implement install banners for web), no push notifications, many of the native API integrations missing, it's hard to go too far down the web path before the business folks want the native app for growth angles. It's a lot more about making money than the better UX that can be had with native.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > many of the native API integrations missing Those "native API integrations" are Chrome-only non-standards that neither Safari nor Firefox are ever going to implement.

by MBCook 4y ago

Gigachad 4y ago

Telegram is probably the best example of a PWA. It's not as good as the mobile app, especially for gestures, but it's better than a lot of native apps.

dmitriid 4y ago
Telegram really is an outlier among messengers. Each version is developed by like one person, and they are all feature-rich, feature-complete, fast and smooth.

cglong 4y ago

Apple's stronghold affects PWA feasibility on Android too. If I have to write a PWA for Android and a native app for iOS to cover gaps in Safari, why choose a PWA at all?

MBCook 4y ago
Apple may be ~50% of the market in the US but it’s ~20% of the market worldwide. On the desktop anyone on any mainstream OS can use Chrome or FF. Yet someone the total lack of PWA success is 100% Safari’s fault. Look at all those users I listed above. How are there no common/well known PWAs if they’re so great? People use websites like the Google Suite and Figma and such. They use web apps built as desktop apps in Electron. They use native apps. Almost no one uses PWAs. Even if Figma or Gmail or whatever is available to be saved as a PWA it doesn’t seem to be commonly done. There must be some other problem than Safari. It can’t be the big issue.
- toyg 4y ago
  > ~20% of the market worldwide But a much higher percentage of the profitable market, in terms of app income.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    There are many markets where it is hardly a presence out of those 20% and not every company is a global corporation.

madeofpalk 4y ago

Google, to some degree, worked with Twitter to make twitter.com a 'flagship example' of what PWAs could be. If that's the best Google could come up with, the platform stands zero chance.

lern_too_spel 4y ago
I prefer the Twitter PWA to the native app. What do you think is wrong with it?
- jacooper 4y ago
  Filled with empty loading pages? Not smooth at all compared to the native app? And having zero animations doesn't help at all
  - steve1977 4y ago
    And that’s for an app that is actually trivial.
  - fsflover 4y ago
    Twitter is actively trying to force people to use the app by making web experience miserable.
  - lern_too_spel 4y ago
    Everything loads instantly for me, including the app because I always have a browser process running anyway. What browser are you using?

TobyTheDog123 4y ago

Because Safari sucks. The reason iOS and Google/Android PWAs suck is because Apple does everything in its power to make them suck: - Complex and user-unfriendly "add-to-homescreen" functionality - Limited/trailing functionality for native APIs - The obnoxious url/browser bar persistent at the bottom of the page, with horrendous and uncustomizable hiding/showing of said bar. People advocate for PWAs, but I never use them because as an end-user they're awful to use, because developers can't create them to the quality of native applications because of these limitations. Of course the complaints go to Safari in that case. They absolutely could have PWAs be of higher quality, but they don't, for obvious reasons.

MBCook 4y ago
I get why they suck on iOS. Why aren’t they on Android? Windows? Linux? MacOS? Existing PWAs should be better known, especially in HN-like/tech circles. But that’s not what I see.
- TobyTheDog123 4y ago
  I can't entirely speak for Android, but I assume that Google has similar nonsense (as evidenced by sideloading being a pain to the average user) For Windows, Linux, and MacOS, there's no real need for them, or not enough need for them to exist. There are no policies or guidelines to follow, there is no 30% tax. The browsers people use on desktop devices provide everything that developers need and can reasonably expect of the platform. There aren't any usability differences, there are barely any performance differences, and there are barely any feature differences. In fact, I think many desktop end-users would prefer the app to be web-based because it feels so native. In addition, it's what another commenter said - if it can't be on iOS, then what's even the point of having one?
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Because many countries hardly have an iOS presence and there are tons of companies that only care about the local market.
4y ago

dylan604 4y ago

>There is always some complaint about Safari instead. when one app is used by roughly half of all mobile users, that's not something you can ignore. so complaining about that one app when these conversations come up does not seem out of place. essentially, the conversation is something like: - PWAs are great! -- How well do they run on Safari? - PWAs are great on other platforms. -- So about half of mobile users? Doesn't seem that great to me

MBCook 4y ago
Safari is used by half of US users. Worldwide it’s closer to 20%. And the desktop is totally open. I’m not saying I expect PWAs to be huge, but it seems like they should be more notable PWAs if people really wanted them so bad.
- dylan604 4y ago
  meh, semantics. the point is that there's a large enough audience that it doesn't add up to making sense for dev time.

esprehn 4y ago

There's a bunch that run very well on Android: Twitter, Instagram, Uber, Lyft, even TikTok all have very good PWAs. TikTok aggressively funnels you into the native app for various business reasons, but the experience is well polished if they'd let you use it all the time. Safari (really that iOS won't let you pick a different browser) has definitely been holding back the growth of PWAs though. Without decent install to home screen support (apple doesn't implement install banners for web), no push notifications, many of the native API integrations missing, it's hard to go too far down the web path before the business folks want the native app for growth angles. It's a lot more about making money than the better UX that can be had with native.

dmitriid 4y ago
> many of the native API integrations missing Those "native API integrations" are Chrome-only non-standards that neither Safari nor Firefox are ever going to implement.