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This honestly sounds like the same experience one gets when talking to humans :) I'm only half joking. Even experts in their field tend to inject their own bia

This honestly sounds like the same experience one gets when talking to humans :) I'm only half joking. Even experts in their field tend to inject their own biases and experiential preferences when answering questions in depth.

adventured 4y ago
ChatGPT is just your average Reddit user. Even when it's wrong, it's confidently wrong.
- BbzzbB 4y ago
  Perhaps because it is trained on Redditors and co.
  - z3c0 4y ago
    I'd sure hope not. Reddit comments are a masterclass in disguising ethos and pathos as logos. I'd expect that the boring reality is that it's trained on highly ethos/logos text (academic works) and thus always presents itself as such, even when its weights cause an invalid assertion.
    - robswc 4y ago
      Reddit is exhausting. One big feedback loop. People will say anything to get good karma or avoid saying certain things to avoid being down voted. If there is even just a slight majority in the way the group thinks, it will soon become the dominate opinion. For example, there was a voice actor that lied about being paid a pitiful sum of money for a gig. Everyone took her side initially (as one should _if_ it were true) but the people saying "well, this just seems odd" were being more or less attacked and told their opinions were awful. The quality of discussions I have on HN and niche forums are 100x better than reddit.
      - colejohnson66 4y ago
        TBF, the same can happen here to a lesser extent. False or misleading stories blow up quickly because “$BIGCORP bad”.
    - BbzzbB 4y ago
      It's trained on Twitter data so I assume Reddit data as well. Honestly feels like they're both pretty important datasets to ingest if trying to build a model on human speech, I reckon social medias, comment sections and co have the most natural human conversational text online.
  - WaffleIronMaker 4y ago
    I know this is a joke, but I think it's important to recognize that it's because the ChatGPT language model does not have the ability to introspect and decide how accurate its knowledge is in a given domain. No amount of training on new input data can ensure it provides accurate responses.
    - je42 4y ago
      That applies to humans as well.
      - circuit10 4y ago
        No it doesn't, humans can recognise when they don't know something, current language models usually can't (yet) Their training objective, which is to predict the next piece of text in their training data, does not incentivise them to respond that they don't know something, as there no relation in the training data between the AI not knowing something and the correct next text being "I don't know" or similar
wolverine876 4y ago
That is the claim made by AI proponents every time it fails, such as for self-driving cars - humans make mistakes too. Humans make math mistakes, but I wouldn't be satisfied with a calculator that does. ChatGPT is a tool; it's value depends on how well I can trust it. Humans are not tools. > experts in their field tend to inject their own biases and experiential preferences when answering questions in depth. Another typical argument - everyone makes mistakes, therefore my mistakes aren't relevant. Everyone can do math, but there's a big difference between my math and Timothy Gowers. Everyone lies and everyone tells the truth at times, but the meaningful difference is in degree - some do it all the time, with major consequences, take no responsibility, and cause lots of harm. That's different than the person committed to integrity.
- williamcotton 4y ago
  It’s either useful or it isn’t. Comparing AI to either human intelligence or rules-based computing tools is incoherent. Fucking stop it! What we are really talking about are the pros and cons of experiential, tacit knowledge. Humans can do this. Humans can also compute sums. Computers are really good at computing sums. It turns out they can work with experiential knowledge as well. Whodathunk. What we should be saying is this: there will always be benefits of experiential knowledge and there will always be faults with experiential knowledge, regardless of man vs. machine.
- pksebben 4y ago
  To speak as a proponent, it's not about the er... "relative relevance" so much as the utility. there are things about a chat model that you can't say about humans, like, it's not really ethical to keep a human stuffed in your pocket to be your personal assistant at your whim. I think one of the things folks struggle with in grokking the value of these models is that we're really used to tools being like you say; they're reliable and do a thing. As though there are two states of work - perfect and useless. There are other patterns to interact with information, and this puts what we used to need humans for in a place that we can do other things with it. stuff like: - brainstorming - rubber duck debugging - casually discussing a topic - exploring ideas / knowledge - study groups (as in, having other semi-knowledge entities around to bounce ideas off of, ask questions, etc) when it comes to self driving cars, well, that's a bit of a different story and really is more a discussion about ethics and law and those standards. I, and others like you speak of are held of the opinion that the expectation for autonomous vehicles is a bit high given the rates of human failure, but there's plenty of arguments to be made that automating and scaling a thing means you should hold it to a higher standard anyway. I don't think there's a correct answer on this one - it's complex enough to be a battery if opinion. You mention the potential for harm, and certainly that applies here. I'm less worried about chatgpt being wrong. Much less likely to flatten me at an intersection.

adventured 4y ago

ChatGPT is just your average Reddit user. Even when it's wrong, it's confidently wrong.

BbzzbB 4y ago
Perhaps because it is trained on Redditors and co.
- z3c0 4y ago
  I'd sure hope not. Reddit comments are a masterclass in disguising ethos and pathos as logos. I'd expect that the boring reality is that it's trained on highly ethos/logos text (academic works) and thus always presents itself as such, even when its weights cause an invalid assertion.
  - robswc 4y ago
    Reddit is exhausting. One big feedback loop. People will say anything to get good karma or avoid saying certain things to avoid being down voted. If there is even just a slight majority in the way the group thinks, it will soon become the dominate opinion. For example, there was a voice actor that lied about being paid a pitiful sum of money for a gig. Everyone took her side initially (as one should _if_ it were true) but the people saying "well, this just seems odd" were being more or less attacked and told their opinions were awful. The quality of discussions I have on HN and niche forums are 100x better than reddit.
    - colejohnson66 4y ago
      TBF, the same can happen here to a lesser extent. False or misleading stories blow up quickly because “$BIGCORP bad”.
  - BbzzbB 4y ago
    It's trained on Twitter data so I assume Reddit data as well. Honestly feels like they're both pretty important datasets to ingest if trying to build a model on human speech, I reckon social medias, comment sections and co have the most natural human conversational text online.
- WaffleIronMaker 4y ago
  I know this is a joke, but I think it's important to recognize that it's because the ChatGPT language model does not have the ability to introspect and decide how accurate its knowledge is in a given domain. No amount of training on new input data can ensure it provides accurate responses.
  - je42 4y ago
    That applies to humans as well.
    - circuit10 4y ago
      No it doesn't, humans can recognise when they don't know something, current language models usually can't (yet) Their training objective, which is to predict the next piece of text in their training data, does not incentivise them to respond that they don't know something, as there no relation in the training data between the AI not knowing something and the correct next text being "I don't know" or similar

wolverine876 4y ago

That is the claim made by AI proponents every time it fails, such as for self-driving cars - humans make mistakes too. Humans make math mistakes, but I wouldn't be satisfied with a calculator that does. ChatGPT is a tool; it's value depends on how well I can trust it. Humans are not tools. > experts in their field tend to inject their own biases and experiential preferences when answering questions in depth. Another typical argument - everyone makes mistakes, therefore my mistakes aren't relevant. Everyone can do math, but there's a big difference between my math and Timothy Gowers. Everyone lies and everyone tells the truth at times, but the meaningful difference is in degree - some do it all the time, with major consequences, take no responsibility, and cause lots of harm. That's different than the person committed to integrity.

williamcotton 4y ago
It’s either useful or it isn’t. Comparing AI to either human intelligence or rules-based computing tools is incoherent. Fucking stop it! What we are really talking about are the pros and cons of experiential, tacit knowledge. Humans can do this. Humans can also compute sums. Computers are really good at computing sums. It turns out they can work with experiential knowledge as well. Whodathunk. What we should be saying is this: there will always be benefits of experiential knowledge and there will always be faults with experiential knowledge, regardless of man vs. machine.
pksebben 4y ago
To speak as a proponent, it's not about the er... "relative relevance" so much as the utility. there are things about a chat model that you can't say about humans, like, it's not really ethical to keep a human stuffed in your pocket to be your personal assistant at your whim. I think one of the things folks struggle with in grokking the value of these models is that we're really used to tools being like you say; they're reliable and do a thing. As though there are two states of work - perfect and useless. There are other patterns to interact with information, and this puts what we used to need humans for in a place that we can do other things with it. stuff like: - brainstorming - rubber duck debugging - casually discussing a topic - exploring ideas / knowledge - study groups (as in, having other semi-knowledge entities around to bounce ideas off of, ask questions, etc) when it comes to self driving cars, well, that's a bit of a different story and really is more a discussion about ethics and law and those standards. I, and others like you speak of are held of the opinion that the expectation for autonomous vehicles is a bit high given the rates of human failure, but there's plenty of arguments to be made that automating and scaling a thing means you should hold it to a higher standard anyway. I don't think there's a correct answer on this one - it's complex enough to be a battery if opinion. You mention the potential for harm, and certainly that applies here. I'm less worried about chatgpt being wrong. Much less likely to flatten me at an intersection.