8 ms·

This more than doubles the complexity, increases weight, has much lower battery capacity, and still sticks you with the maintenance work required for the ICE.

This more than doubles the complexity, increases weight, has much lower battery capacity, and still sticks you with the maintenance work required for the ICE. Plus gas is a very volatile mix that degrades; you must run the ICE regularly to ensure the tank gets cycled.

dekhn 4y ago
Uh, exactly how long can I go between running the ICE engine before... something(?) happens to my gas and engine?
- hattmall 4y ago
  It's unlikely to be a one time thing. But recurrently letting gas sit for extended periods of time could cause issues. This mostly only applies to ethanol containing fuels. This is why boats need to use 100% gas. You should do the same for a plugin hybrid if you don't cycle the tank at least every 2-3 weeks. That's all it takes to damage a boat if it sits. Cars will be better but the repeated exposure would certainly take a toll.
  - legitster 4y ago
    BMW had something for their i3 that ran the engine automatically every so often for this very reason. But they also only stuck it with a 2 gallon tank.
    - hangonhn 4y ago
      My friends LOVE their i3 and it was like their gateway drug to EVs. I think if BMW had kept going on that concept, it would have create a true winner. They NEVER needed to refill their backup tank in the 2 or 3 years they leased. I think BMW did something special to make the gas tank keep the gasoline that long. In that span of time, battery mode satisfied all their needs and they loved driving it.
  - dekhn 4y ago
    What does "take a toll" mean? Sorry to be difficult but people tell me a lot of things will damage my car in the long term, but I haven't been able to reproduce any of those problems yet. The only thing that damaged my car was putting too much oil in it, that caused it to fail nearly immediately, and was covered by the warranty so it was free to replace the whole engine.
    - colechristensen 4y ago
      Eh, your car will run a little shitty with the old gas, leaving an engine without running it for extended periods can cause somewhat faster corrosion depending on your environment, and old gas can increase things like various gunk getting deposited around your engine. All in all, a mild shortening of the life of your engine and perhaps triggering some maintenance sooner than otherwise. Realistically, not much. The people saying “bad for you” aren’t wrong but they also fail to mention the effect size. It’s not particularly relevant unless you want to own the same car for a few hundred thousand miles and absolutely minimize maintenance. (Small aircraft for example, you want to care a lot about these things because they’re very expensive, when the engine fails you’ll be thousands of feet above the ground, and a well maintained plane can last decades. Your daily driver probably doesn’t have any of these issues) There are various preventative things you can do to minimize the effects anyway. It’s one of those internet things where yeah they’re not wrong exactly but they need to relax. Having too much beer and cheeseburgers last night long term probably wasn’t the best decision, but you know what I’ll probably be fine. Leaking gas in a car for a long time is like eating too much fast food. Ok yeah not the greatest but are you the type of person who cares enough to never eat McDonald’s? Make your decisions according to your disposition and don’t take people telling you you’re wrong too seriously.
      - dekhn 4y ago
        Thank you! This was my conclusion as well: there's an effect, it's small, and was probably much larger 30 years ago. I also only have the oil changed every 10K miles which horrifies my friends.
        4y ago
- opwieurposiu 4y ago
  You want to run an engine once a month or so to keep all the internal parts protected from rust by a thin film of oil. It is best to let it heat up all the way to drive out as much moisture as possible. Internal rusting is a big issue on airplanes that do not get flown often enough. The first thing to go are the cam shafts. https://www.aviationpros.com/home/article/10387461/corrosion-how-does-it-affect-the-internal-engine https://www.aviationpros.com/home/article/10387461/corrosion...
  - jstarfish 4y ago
    > It is best to let it heat up all the way to drive out as much moisture as possible. > Internal rusting is a big issue on airplanes that do not get flown often enough. I was always told to take the car for an actual drive (including a highway stretch) to achieve these ends, otherwise the moisture you're expelling accumulates in the exhaust system. Looking around the neighborhood, I assume the people with the rusted-out mufflers are the ones that just let it idle.
    - dekhn 4y ago
      In fact there was just a PR blitz about not idling to circulate oil: https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/features/aaa-says-dont-warm-your-car-up https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/features/aaa-says-dont-w... Since I have yet to see any of these various claims having any impact on the maintainability or function of my car, I think I'll stick to my plan of not wasting the gas in my engine for months at a time.
- DavidPeiffer 4y ago
  I don't recall specific models, but I have read some (many? most?) plug-in hybrids monitor how long since the tank was last filled and at a certain point will run the gas engine to work through the fuel before it goes bad.
  - bcrl 4y ago
    I've always wondered why there aren't diesel hybrids on the market given the higher energy density of diesel plus its long term stability. It would seem to be the ideal use-case since the diesel engine could be run at the RPM needed to be to minimize emissions.
legitster 4y ago
If you know ahead of time that the engine is going to run infrequently, there are lots of ways to mitigate this. The ICE is tantamount to a backup generator, and there are very reliable backup generators. > This more than doubles the complexity, increases weight I mean, US consumers already put up with this when it came to automatic transmissions. But the cost/maintenance problems were a fair trade-off for convenience. And in the case of plug-in hybrids, they are VERY convenient. You almost never need to get gas, but you can still go on a road trip without any pre-planning.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  > US consumers already put up with this when it came to automatic transmissions. Europeans, too. Automatics crossed over 50% in the last couple years.
endisneigh 4y ago
That doesn’t make sense, a lithium battery is heavier than an engine in the differentials we are talking about. The volt pretty much already is a case study for the other points. It’s not really that much work. The later point can be resolved with software that uses the gas on occasion.
enragedcacti 4y ago
> This more than doubles the complexity hybrid systems are complex but really not much more complex than traditional ICE when you consider that they no longer need starters or alternators, have transmissions with no shifting components, and can use electric A/C compressors to avoid accessory belts entirely. They also have much longer maintenance intervals because the engine is only running ~2/3rds of the time. Electric cars are of course simpler but have cost and range issues that are prohibitive for some use cases, not to mention will usually weigh much more than even an equivalent plugin hybrid. Suffice to say there is a reason that the best taxi vehicle has been the Prius for more than a decade. efficient and rock solid reliable despite increased complexity. Most importantly though, you can make 10 plugin hybrids with the battery from one BEV. As long as raw materials for batteries are a bottleneck then we should be seriously considering PHEVs as a stopgap if as we can make sure they are getting charged.
twobitshifter 4y ago
It doesn't have to double complexity. Look at the BMW i3 Rex - it used a basic range-extending generator and was ahead of its time. The weight savings of the Rex vs. a larger battery are significant. Most EVs carry around a battery that they'll only use 10% of on a typical day.
toast0 4y ago
A Toyota Synergy style hybrid has a more mechanically simple transmission than an ICE plus a traditional transmission. I haven't seen numbers, but I'd be surprised if ICE plus a fuel system weighs more than 300 miles worth of batteries, but you get 600 miles of range with the ICE. You could easily get more, but PHEVs seem to be stuck with a 12 gallon tank. My PHEV has a two year maintenance cycle, and the ICE portion is changing the oil, mostly. Yes, at some point you'll need to do a timing chain/belt, and there's incidentals; you'll never need to replace emissions equipment on a BEV, and most of the unscheduled maintenance on my ICE equipped cars has been related to emissions: EGR valves, o2 sensors, EVAP canisters, etc. The engine control system takes care of running the ICE regularly, it's not something you have to worry about. I'd expect it to push you to fill up the tank about twice a year if you're mostly driving electric. I drive my PHEV mostly gas, and not that often anyway, so I just fill up every 500 miles or so.
jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
As to your last point, designers of range extenders are obviously aware of this and handle it automatically. It'll chose to kick on occasionally even if the batter is nearly full.

dekhn 4y ago

Uh, exactly how long can I go between running the ICE engine before... something(?) happens to my gas and engine?

hattmall 4y ago
It's unlikely to be a one time thing. But recurrently letting gas sit for extended periods of time could cause issues. This mostly only applies to ethanol containing fuels. This is why boats need to use 100% gas. You should do the same for a plugin hybrid if you don't cycle the tank at least every 2-3 weeks. That's all it takes to damage a boat if it sits. Cars will be better but the repeated exposure would certainly take a toll.
- legitster 4y ago
  BMW had something for their i3 that ran the engine automatically every so often for this very reason. But they also only stuck it with a 2 gallon tank.
  - hangonhn 4y ago
    My friends LOVE their i3 and it was like their gateway drug to EVs. I think if BMW had kept going on that concept, it would have create a true winner. They NEVER needed to refill their backup tank in the 2 or 3 years they leased. I think BMW did something special to make the gas tank keep the gasoline that long. In that span of time, battery mode satisfied all their needs and they loved driving it.
- dekhn 4y ago
  What does "take a toll" mean? Sorry to be difficult but people tell me a lot of things will damage my car in the long term, but I haven't been able to reproduce any of those problems yet. The only thing that damaged my car was putting too much oil in it, that caused it to fail nearly immediately, and was covered by the warranty so it was free to replace the whole engine.
  - colechristensen 4y ago
    Eh, your car will run a little shitty with the old gas, leaving an engine without running it for extended periods can cause somewhat faster corrosion depending on your environment, and old gas can increase things like various gunk getting deposited around your engine. All in all, a mild shortening of the life of your engine and perhaps triggering some maintenance sooner than otherwise. Realistically, not much. The people saying “bad for you” aren’t wrong but they also fail to mention the effect size. It’s not particularly relevant unless you want to own the same car for a few hundred thousand miles and absolutely minimize maintenance. (Small aircraft for example, you want to care a lot about these things because they’re very expensive, when the engine fails you’ll be thousands of feet above the ground, and a well maintained plane can last decades. Your daily driver probably doesn’t have any of these issues) There are various preventative things you can do to minimize the effects anyway. It’s one of those internet things where yeah they’re not wrong exactly but they need to relax. Having too much beer and cheeseburgers last night long term probably wasn’t the best decision, but you know what I’ll probably be fine. Leaking gas in a car for a long time is like eating too much fast food. Ok yeah not the greatest but are you the type of person who cares enough to never eat McDonald’s? Make your decisions according to your disposition and don’t take people telling you you’re wrong too seriously.
    - dekhn 4y ago
      Thank you! This was my conclusion as well: there's an effect, it's small, and was probably much larger 30 years ago. I also only have the oil changed every 10K miles which horrifies my friends.
      - 4y ago
opwieurposiu 4y ago
You want to run an engine once a month or so to keep all the internal parts protected from rust by a thin film of oil. It is best to let it heat up all the way to drive out as much moisture as possible. Internal rusting is a big issue on airplanes that do not get flown often enough. The first thing to go are the cam shafts. https://www.aviationpros.com/home/article/10387461/corrosion-how-does-it-affect-the-internal-engine https://www.aviationpros.com/home/article/10387461/corrosion...
- jstarfish 4y ago
  > It is best to let it heat up all the way to drive out as much moisture as possible. > Internal rusting is a big issue on airplanes that do not get flown often enough. I was always told to take the car for an actual drive (including a highway stretch) to achieve these ends, otherwise the moisture you're expelling accumulates in the exhaust system. Looking around the neighborhood, I assume the people with the rusted-out mufflers are the ones that just let it idle.
  - dekhn 4y ago
    In fact there was just a PR blitz about not idling to circulate oil: https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/features/aaa-says-dont-warm-your-car-up https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/features/aaa-says-dont-w... Since I have yet to see any of these various claims having any impact on the maintainability or function of my car, I think I'll stick to my plan of not wasting the gas in my engine for months at a time.
DavidPeiffer 4y ago
I don't recall specific models, but I have read some (many? most?) plug-in hybrids monitor how long since the tank was last filled and at a certain point will run the gas engine to work through the fuel before it goes bad.
- bcrl 4y ago
  I've always wondered why there aren't diesel hybrids on the market given the higher energy density of diesel plus its long term stability. It would seem to be the ideal use-case since the diesel engine could be run at the RPM needed to be to minimize emissions.

legitster 4y ago

If you know ahead of time that the engine is going to run infrequently, there are lots of ways to mitigate this. The ICE is tantamount to a backup generator, and there are very reliable backup generators. > This more than doubles the complexity, increases weight I mean, US consumers already put up with this when it came to automatic transmissions. But the cost/maintenance problems were a fair trade-off for convenience. And in the case of plug-in hybrids, they are VERY convenient. You almost never need to get gas, but you can still go on a road trip without any pre-planning.

rootusrootus 4y ago
> US consumers already put up with this when it came to automatic transmissions. Europeans, too. Automatics crossed over 50% in the last couple years.

endisneigh 4y ago

That doesn’t make sense, a lithium battery is heavier than an engine in the differentials we are talking about. The volt pretty much already is a case study for the other points. It’s not really that much work. The later point can be resolved with software that uses the gas on occasion.

enragedcacti 4y ago

> This more than doubles the complexity hybrid systems are complex but really not much more complex than traditional ICE when you consider that they no longer need starters or alternators, have transmissions with no shifting components, and can use electric A/C compressors to avoid accessory belts entirely. They also have much longer maintenance intervals because the engine is only running ~2/3rds of the time. Electric cars are of course simpler but have cost and range issues that are prohibitive for some use cases, not to mention will usually weigh much more than even an equivalent plugin hybrid. Suffice to say there is a reason that the best taxi vehicle has been the Prius for more than a decade. efficient and rock solid reliable despite increased complexity. Most importantly though, you can make 10 plugin hybrids with the battery from one BEV. As long as raw materials for batteries are a bottleneck then we should be seriously considering PHEVs as a stopgap if as we can make sure they are getting charged.

twobitshifter 4y ago

It doesn't have to double complexity. Look at the BMW i3 Rex - it used a basic range-extending generator and was ahead of its time. The weight savings of the Rex vs. a larger battery are significant. Most EVs carry around a battery that they'll only use 10% of on a typical day.

toast0 4y ago

A Toyota Synergy style hybrid has a more mechanically simple transmission than an ICE plus a traditional transmission. I haven't seen numbers, but I'd be surprised if ICE plus a fuel system weighs more than 300 miles worth of batteries, but you get 600 miles of range with the ICE. You could easily get more, but PHEVs seem to be stuck with a 12 gallon tank. My PHEV has a two year maintenance cycle, and the ICE portion is changing the oil, mostly. Yes, at some point you'll need to do a timing chain/belt, and there's incidentals; you'll never need to replace emissions equipment on a BEV, and most of the unscheduled maintenance on my ICE equipped cars has been related to emissions: EGR valves, o2 sensors, EVAP canisters, etc. The engine control system takes care of running the ICE regularly, it's not something you have to worry about. I'd expect it to push you to fill up the tank about twice a year if you're mostly driving electric. I drive my PHEV mostly gas, and not that often anyway, so I just fill up every 500 miles or so.

jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago

As to your last point, designers of range extenders are obviously aware of this and handle it automatically. It'll chose to kick on occasionally even if the batter is nearly full.