8 ms·

Being recruited in the USA

165 points by masylum 15y ago

There is a lack of engineers everywhere, but finding talent is especially hard on the Bay Area. I'm from Spain but I've been the last 3 months in San Francisco attending to some conferences and visiting some friends. At that time I was trying to start something but I changed my mind and I started looking for a job instead...

JOnAgain 15y ago
Wow, silence. So strange. Also strange about the visa. H1-B's were 'gone' this year (all were claimed fairly early), but they should have known that if they had looked into it at all. Unless you've had one before, the earliest you could start in the US is next November, but you have to be hired by April so they can apply on your behalf.
- masylum 15y ago
  They got other H1-B's easily before, but apparently this year they run out so fast!
  - untog 15y ago
    It's actually more common for them to disappear quickly. I was extremely lucky the year I got mine- there were still some available around April. As I understand it, that's a rarity. Hooray for economic downturns?
michokest 15y ago
Immigration is such a complicated issue – talented workers attempting to immigrate into the country, and bureaucracy getting in the way.
- rubashov 15y ago
  We have very high unemployment. Also, the national identity and cohesion is swamped by a far too large influx of foreigners. There should be an immigration moratorium. Essentially zero people should be let in until there is robust job growth. There should be a much longer moratorium on granting foreigners citizenship. Immigration rates are far too high and on a course to create serious overpopulation problems in north america. https://www.numbersusa.com/content/ https://www.numbersusa.com/content/
  - vandahm 15y ago
    It's true that the overall unemployment rate is alarmingly high, but my understanding is that the employment rate among software developers is quite low. In my area, at least, my sense is that there aren't enough developers looking for work to meet the demand for their labor. I guess it's theoretically possible to train unemployed nontechnical people to write code, but I don't see any viable plans to make that happen.
  - danieldk 15y ago
    It's exactly this thinking that can kill science and startups. That there is unemployment, does not mean there is unemployment in every branch of the industry. In branches, where there is a lack of qualified workers, you need to take in immigrants, or you will become uncompetitive. Also, remember that there are many people who just want to work in a different country temporarily because it is good for their career+. E.g. here in The Netherlands, we have a high influx of Chinese students and PhD candidates. But nearly all of them return once they have a degree (a degree from a Western university usually gives them good positions in China). + There seems to be a widely spread belief in the US that the rest of the world is envious, and would preferably want to live in the US. I have been in the US very often, but I'd never want to live in the US permanently. Social welfare, healthcare, paid leaves, pensions, etc. are so much better arranged in West Europe.
    - rubashov 15y ago
      > this thinking that can kill science and startups If an industry does not employ the native people in a country, or only enriches a clique of owners, then who cares if it leaves? In any case, this line of argument is malarkey. There is no evidence of restrictive immigration driving away business. Typically you just get an industry with higher capital investments and higher wages.
      - fijal 15y ago
        I for one, would welcome the entire Silicon Valley to move somewhere else.
      - 15y ago
- hudibras 15y ago
  The H1B visa is designed to provide foreign workers to a business in instances where doing so does not affect American workers. When the visa is denied, don't jump to the conclusion that the bureaucracy failed. The more likely result is that the bureaucracy worked because the company was either trying to hire a foreign worker for a job that many unemployed Americans could do or that they were trying to undercut currently-employed Americans' wages.
ntkachov 15y ago
I want to know what the stigma is over remoting. I know 37signals has quite a few remote engineers and they are doing quite well. There are loads of good engineers literally all over the country. But for some reason the Bay area would rather spend twice as much looking for local engineers than just hiring ones that are on the other side of the country. What gives?
- wisty 15y ago
  I'm willing to bet on-site engineers (especially those with H1B1s) are more loyal. It cuts both ways though - a freelancer knows they are first to go if they company needs to cut back.
  - krallja 15y ago
    Freelancing is not the same thing as a remote employee.
- aspir 15y ago
  Having remote workers requires a very different operation style and a lot of trust in yourself as a manager, trust in your workers, and trust in the technology you're leveraging to communicate. Can you as the manager lead from afar -- its harder than you might think. You can trust workers to actually work, you can just let them go for not doing so. But it's harder to trust your remote workers to engage with the company and their peers digitally. It's not easy. Also, the technology may be a pain to use, and kill any good intentions or habits you may have started. The similar problem with remote is that the manager and their team must consciously prevent the "silence" the author alluded too. Likely, the silence was not intentional. People get distracted in "realspace" and easily can neglect remote worker. In order to have a remote team be viable, you have to overcome this barrier. That's where the trust/competence of all parties comes into play.
  - smallblacksun 15y ago
    There are other problems with remote workers. You can't have a face-to-face conversation. A remote worker can't go into a coworkers office and help track down a tricky bug. These issues can be alleviated to some extent by email, phones, and video-conferencing, but those things require a fair amount of work to set up and still aren't the same as having the person in the office.
kokey 15y ago
I've had similar things happen to me. The best approach is to be on top of how the visa works, the quotas, the timings and the best visa agencies a potential employer should use to get you in. Often companies assume it's going to be easy and pull out after making commitments based on that assumption (and also go silent, like in my case) That said, the author seems to be quite employable, I hope someone spots him for some remote work or lets him join a branch somewhere in the EU and transfer him across on an L1 visa.
- masylum 15y ago
  Right now I'm currently working at teambox.com, I just wanted to share my experience.
triggit 15y ago
If you want an H1-B, you need to apply to start work on October 1. We didn't even put in an application for our H1-B candidate until September and he received his H1-B in early October. Clearly just another demonstration of the USAs primitive immigration policy! You also have to be very careful coming to San Francisco to look for a job and then applying for an H1-B ...theoretically that is against 'the rules' so make sure both you and your future employer are comfortable with the situation. I'd say try again next summer, I'd bet you find success. The $5K for an H1-B is nothing for a great dev!
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
oscardelben 15y ago
I'm going through the process myself, and getting to work in the US is extremely complicated. Whenever I talk with local people (even immigrants) how hard it is to get a visa in the US nobody believes me, but sadly it's the truth. Remote workers is not the solution though, you should be able to get a visa easily for a highly specialized job.
praxxis 15y ago
It's worth noting that the H1B is not the only type of visa that exists for hiring developers. Australians are able to use the E3, which is like a H1B but only available to Australians. Consequently it's easier to get, as long as you have a degree/work experience.
- cletus 15y ago
  I came here to post this because most people don't know about it. It has some key differences to the H1B however: - It is a 2 year visa (H1B is 3 year) and renewable indefinitely (typically H1Bs allow one renewal); - The E3 by default is a multiple-entry visa; - Renewing the visa inside the US is a huge pain. It takes months from USCIS and it's more expensive than obtaining a new visa (which can only be done outside the US); - You don't renew your visa, you renew your status. This means if you leave the US after the visa expires but your status has been renewed you have to get a new visa anyway; - The H1B visa requires a labor certification for the position and "proof" that you were unable to find a domestically qualified candidate. The E3 visa only requires the labor certification so has a much lower barrier to entry.
  - dmnd 15y ago
    Plus the spouse of an E3 holder is allowed to work.
  - spearo77 15y ago
    Technically, you can't renew an existing E3 visa. You must re-apply, and as I learned a few months ago going through the process, the subsequent visas will be E3R. Also, and E3D is apparently easy to obtain. It allows "dependents" (spouse, children) to accompany you to the US, even permitting them a small amount of part time work. In addition, an E3 does not allow "dual intent". i.e. you may not seek permanent status in the US while holding an E3 visa. This means no Green Card applications, including the Green Card Lottery. One other thing that may not be unique to the E3, but is worth understanding is that your tenuous presence in the US is bound to the employment quite tightly. If you quit your job, or are let go (startup winds up, etc), you must exit the US within 10 days. That's 10 days to pack up your things and leave the country.
fourmii 15y ago
Thanks for sharing the experience. I went through the H1B visa process a number of years ago. Although it's pretty tough being treated like you did, I think you and possibly the offering company went into the arrangement without enough information. I remember that the H1B pool is relatively small (in the 10's of thousands) per year. And that well connected immigration lawyers and sponsoring companies usually exhaust that pool within the first day they are released. After that, it's virtually impossible to get a H1B. And when you if you're lucky enough to be able to wrangle a H1B, it's a pretty convoluted and costly (for the sponsoring company) application process. Good luck with the next round of H1Bs, the sponsoring company (and lawyers) need to get in quickly! You sound like a well qualified dev, and it's a shame that the US misses out on good talent because of an inadequate immigration system...
- tompetty 15y ago
  A close friend (in the UK) was approached by a company (In the US) this June with the offer of a job. The H1B process wasn't started until August and he picked up his successful application in mid October. The quota (55,000 or so) goes quickly, but varies by the year and can take several months to be filled completely
- pavelkaroukin 15y ago
  Visa cap was a problem during 2006-2008. Starting from 2009 it became much slower. (for example, in 2008 whole main h1b cap was taken with in 1st day of april and even between these who "took" it there was a lottery. On the other hand, for 2009 visa cap was used only in September)
untog 15y ago
Sadly, the drama doesn't even end after getting your visa. Over six months ago I applied for an H1B transfer to a new job- they replied requesting a confirmation letter from every employer I've had since college saying that I am, indeed, a developer, and not some sort of fraud. My transfer is still pending, making every return journey back into the US a stressful experience. This, after I've already been working in the US for two years- you would have thought they'd have asked for the letters when I applied the first time. My H1B three year limit is in November of this year. I can apply to extend for another three years, but I can't wait to see what nonsense they throw my way when I try.
- coderdude 15y ago
  They probably make it a pain because they don't want you to spend the next decade making money here and sending it back to the mother country.
  - jethroalias97 15y ago
    Since most of these laws are written by politicians and not economists it's more likely that they want to appear tough on immigration to avoid "dey took our jerbs!" style anger from the electorate. It's sort of like how clubs force people to wait in line outside even when there is room. If they let everyone in, it might start to feel crowded and less fun.
  - BadassFractal 15y ago
    Except that doesn't explain why they'd make getting permanent residency so difficult. If they were interested in keeping your hard-earned dollars in the US, they'd try to keep you in forever. Instead you have to deal with the wonderful world of employer sponsored green card and your 15 year-long wait.
  - untog 15y ago
    You appear to be complaining about effect, not cause. Every US immigrant I've spoken to wants to stay here, build up savings, buy a house, etc. I do too. But if there is no path for me to become a permanent resident then, yes, I'm going to take my savings and go home. I don't want to, but I won't have a choice. Making the immigration process difficult is counter-productive for everyone.
Brajeshwar 15y ago
Legally, you cannot seek employment while you're in US (B1 Visa). Hell, you're not even supposed to work and be paid while in the US. You can be reimbursed for travel, accommodation, food, etc. You can work if you're work is in agreement while you were in your country (outside US) but came to US to talk to your client, blah blah. Yes, April 1 is the day H1 Applications are officially opened for filing for worker coming in from October 1. However, with the recent lack of demands, blame the US economy and a much more strict Immigration rules, you're likely to be able to apply till end of year or even more. Last year's quota was available till late November if I can remember correctly (2010's quota was available till Feb of 2011). But, do not wait for April 1, get your lawyer (or the company's lawyer) to start the paperworks and be ready before April 1. That way, you're likely to know the result earlier. Of course, founders (executive roles) can look at L1 for a better alternative Visa than the H1. Note: Your lawyer will also advised you to leave US soil before applying for your H1 else you're complicating yourself. Translation, you're soliciting yourself (being interviewed, meeting prospective employer) and that is not allowed.
- ovi256 15y ago
  Given that the H1B must be sponsored by an employer, how are you supposed to find one if you shouldn't "solicit", go to interviews, meet people ? Is this a catch-22 ? Nobody ever got legally an H1B ?
  - galadriel 15y ago
    One way would be to that the companies interview you in your countries. This usually happens with on-campus recruitment. Other way is that you are on some other visa (other than B-1), that does allows you to solicit, give interviews, etc. For example at the end of F-1 study visa, you can go around and shop for some time to get a job, and the company will then sponsor for your H1B.
    - GuiA 15y ago
      Actually, at the end of an F1 visa, provided that you got a degree, you can work under OPT for 12 months, with a possible 17 months extension if you're in STEM. At the end of those (12+17) months you can seek H1B.
buss 15y ago
I'm curious about the author's opinion of the puzzles he had to answer while interviewing. I know most of us in the US are used to this style of interview, so it would be interesting to hear more about Pau's experience. I've been reading up about hiring and interviewing, and shockingly enough there isn't any good research I can find on effective hiring practices. I worry that asking puzzles and brain teasers is just a fad that isn't doing anything to pick out the best candidates. There's no real evidence that we're doing it right...
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- antninja 15y ago
  Personally I would reply that I'm an application developer and none of those questions are related to my job. 'this' refers to the object, I don't give a shit how it works. From their questions, I would say they're searching for a low-level library developer with a strong background in mathematics.
  - ludwigvan 15y ago
    >> " 'this' refers to the object, I don't give a shit how it works." Well, it is quite important knowing how `this` works in JavaScript. See: http://www.digital-web.com/articles/scope_in_javascript/ http://www.digital-web.com/articles/scope_in_javascript/
    - ntkachov 15y ago
      Also its really important to know how float works in javascript. because 0.1 + 0.2 != 0.3 in Javascript. I don't know why "application developer" == "Don't have to know how the thing I'm using works" Quite frankly I can never get away from knowing how the thing I'm using works. My greatest wish is that in 2050 we will create a computer language that has no performance penalties and all the JITers/vms/compilers are invisible to me. Until then I'm forced to learn all the inner workings of my languages if I want them to run reasonably.
  - 15y ago
peacemaker 15y ago
Hey I've got a green card and I'm having major problems, not really sure why. Just today I was rejected from a job where I absolutely aced the interview process. No feedback as to why but I'm thinking there is something lost in translation. I'm from the UK, been coding C++ for over 10 years and love it, even coding in my spare time. When I meet people at interviews I get good feedback, answer 99% of the questions no problems and generally do well. Yet still, for some reason and despite the massive demand for software engineers, I'm just not getting anything. Never had this problem in the UK... but just wanted to let you know that it seems you're not alone.
- Arelius 15y ago
  My impression is that the market is much different for people wanting to do systems and c++ development. Very few postings, and those that do exist are getting swamped underqualified applications, among others.
- christkv 15y ago
  we are hiring system level people at 10gen to work on mongodb so if you are interested ping me christkv at 10gen
  - peacemaker 15y ago
    Will do, thanks!
brunosan 15y ago
I went through a similar process twice. In my case it went rather smooth, but I am a scientist not a programmer. I made this post to summarize my experience: http://bit.ly/zMEHfr http://bit.ly/zMEHfr
- galadriel 15y ago
  I thought NIV was usually used with application for EB2 Green card. Is there a NIV category in H1B too?
  - brunosan 15y ago
    I went back to my Visa application. You are right. I´ll edit my post. There are certain cases where there is no cap. The one that applies to me is "A nonprofit research organization or governmental research organization." 8 CFR 214.2 (h) (19) (iii) (C) My mind played tricks (back when I was researcher there was that option to increase your chances). However I do remember that presenting a legal case that my skills were worth was an important factor to get the H1B.
- chollida1 15y ago
  In case anyone is afraid of clicking on random bit.ly links, the above link expands to: http://brunosan.eu/2012/01/04/being-recruited-in-the-usa/ http://brunosan.eu/2012/01/04/being-recruited-in-the-usa/
trustfundbaby 15y ago
I think the poster might be a little naive about the H1-B process and how unattractive it is for small companies. Make no bones about it. Its a major hassle, and if you leave it to the company it will (usually) never happen. So advice for people in the same boat in the future, If it is something you really want to do, then you need to know exactly how the process works at every step of the way and also have a really good Lawyer that the company can talk to if they have questions. They can help you if tricky things come up (and they will if the company applying for you is small enough). I advise you not to go with a lawyer from a big firm, those guys just want to see dollars ... and if your case is small and tricky they will not be interested. trust me. Try to find an individual or small firm that is responsive and knows the ins and outs of the process far better than you ... if possible ask them to tell you the trickiest situation they've helped a client with before ... that should give you some idea of how good they are. Usually they can bill you for their time spent talking the company, or their lawyer down from the ledge (this will happen), or if they handle the process then you or the company can pay their fees. Lay out the process when the company asks about it (because they will usually not know), let them know that its not complex, just a pain in the ass and that you will handle most of the legwork (you're prepared to do this right?) ... some people chip in to help with the fees if they're so inclined ... this is frowned upon and I think the law has been changed to make it illegal, use that information as you want. Above all, be persistent, upbeat and constantly in touch, do not think that a company is going to jump through hoops to pay $5000 to get you. And remember that some of the requests that are made of the company (like tax returns etc) might cause them to stall, so be prepared for that. It will come down to how bad you want it. good luck
georgieporgie 15y ago
I think there's not so much a talent shortage so much as there's a shortage of engineers who are gifted at contrived puzzle questions and willing to accept average pay for exceptional ability.
- buss 15y ago
  In my experience interviewing candidates for Amazon(1), there is definitely a talent shortage. We get a surprising amount of applicants that can't write a basic program. Personally, I reject 4/5 of all applicants at the phone screen because they couldn't write a very simple program. I use a collaborative code editor so I can see what the person is typing, and I don't give trick problems. I pose the question, and ask them to think about it before coding. Once they've landed on an acceptable solution, I ask them to write it up. 80% of the time it's broken or they can't finish it (these solutions should be 20 lines or fewer). On at least one occasion the answer was copied directly from stack overflow :\. Trick questions are all the rage, but I'm not convinced that they actually highlight a competent developer. The problem (in tech, not specifically at Amazon) is we're all trying to emulate Google, and since they ask brain teasers then we have to ask them too, because it must be the one true way. In summary, I think there is both a shortage of good devs, and contrived puzzle questions are not actually an good for evaluating a candidate. (1) These views expressed are my own, and not necessarily the views of Amazon or its employees. Disclaimer added at my own discretion, not due to any corporate policy.
  - jsnell 15y ago
    Nobody should be asked brainteasers in a Google engineering interview. I have no idea where those bogus "20 Google interview questions" lists with stupid puzzles come from. But really the interviews are supposed to cover things like coding, algorithms, and systems design.
  - onemoreact 15y ago
    Amazon has a terrible reputation which may distort who shows up. I have done conducted plenty of interviews for a few company's and having a solid reputation drastically improves the quality of candidates show up. EX: Microsoft has middle of the road reputation and I know people that would literary consider with them at 120k to be a better option than 140k at Amazon.
greedoshotlast 15y ago
I'd have to agree with your point: "Most of them are doable but I think they are probably missing amazing developers that may not know how to solve those problems, but they are capable of solving real-life problems (fix this bug, port this library, refactor this code...)." I do believe some startups are missing out on some amazingly talented developers by making this your rubric. Some people just don't some solve puzzles well, in the same way some people don't perform stellar on tests, but does that mean they are not capable of writing great code. Not at all. I've met some stellar coders who do not solve timed puzzle or timed tests well. Will someone please explain to me exactly why solving a puzzle is a indicator of potential workplace success. Do you want to hire puzzle solvers or actual developers? Should I spend my time improving my puzzle solving skills or churning out code that solves real-life problems?
- gvb 15y ago
  Puzzles are human benchmarks. Like all benchmarks, their objectives are: 1) They have to be short enough to complete in a "reasonable" amount of time. 2) They have to have enough resolution to distinguish between good, better, and best. 3) They have to be representative of the real life problems that the person / computer will be solving. Most benchmarks only meet objective #1. Further, benchmarks that only meet objective #1 are easily "game-able". Benchmarks which meet objectives #2 and #3 invariably don't meet #1, which makes them hard to use as a benchmark.
- devs1010 15y ago
  I agree, its utter nonsense for the most part, it seems some companies just want you to jump through a bunch of hoops and to make you feel stupid. I think having you work on a small contracted project or something related to the business domain would be a lot more useful.
  - buss 15y ago
    That would probably be more useful, but it doesn't scale. An interview like that takes up a ton of resources and can leave a bad impression on a candidate. Not only are you paying for devs to help and evaluate the candidate, you are doing this over a much longer period than a traditional interview, and you have to pay the candidate for the work they did, even if you're going to throw it out. Nobody wants to force candidates to jump through hoops or make them feel stupid. That's a recipe for bad word-of-mouth and never hiring good devs. When I conduct interviews, I always try to make people feel like they did an OK job. I don't want them to get off the phone thinking they did really poorly. I try hard to seem impartial, but that's often quite difficult to do. The root problem is that nobody knows what the hell they're doing in interviews. We don't know the best way to evaluate candidates, so we try various things that are ineffective or wasteful. Eventually we'll figure it out.
droithomme 15y ago
Wow, having someone implement a square root algorithm on the spot, that's quite a question to ask. I agree that is a terrible question because not many top developers would be able to answer it on the spot unless they had recently happened to have implemented it. It's not like it's an obvious algorithm. I could mention the existence of Carmack's root algorithm, which I don't have memorized but I do know he got from someone else, and flop around a bit. It's weird there are so many companies claiming to not be able to find people but you hear about their hiring process and it's no wonder.
- dpritchett 15y ago
  Newton's method is dead simple to implement, you just have to remember it. http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/chapter1/node9.html http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/chapter1/node9.html
  - drbaskin 15y ago
    If you're handy with simple algebra (and can remember that the derivative of x^2 is 2x) then you can remember the picture. If f(x) = x^2 - N, then you're looking for the (positive) zero of f. You take a succession of tangent lines and look at the zeros of those. So, you start with a guess (call it x_0), take the tangent line at your guess (so it has slope 2x_0 and goes through (x_0, x_0^2 -N)), then find the x-intercept of this line and make it your new guess. This is all Newton's method is. With square roots, it takes the form of averaging your previous guess and N over it.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
  - sliverstorm 15y ago
    Esoteric algorithms would be much more useful questions, IMO, if the interviewer gave you a birds-eye overview of an algorithm you cannot possibly have heard of and then have you implement it. That actually tests your chops rather than your memory. For example, everybody knows merge sort, but assuming they didn't, draw out a couple iterations in a graph and ask them to code it.
jay_kyburz 15y ago
how do you delay a function to the next tick in javascript?
- andrewem 15y ago
  That phrasing isn't very precise, but I presume they mean to use setTimeout and pass a timeout of 0 [0]. That link has some discussion of this use and suggests using window.postMessage instead, at least on "modern browsers", for a suitable definition of modern. [0] https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.setTimeout https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.setTimeout
- masylum 15y ago
  setTimeout(fn, 0);
- djblaze 15y ago
  Im assuming we are talking client-side and 'next tick' means when there is a millisecond of free time. Just use: setTimeout(function, 0) Technically supplying '0' as the milliseconds is bad in old browsers, so you might want to say 10...but I've used '0' a lot without fail.
mislav 15y ago
Worth noting that H1B is more difficult to get without a college degree (so I've been told). I have no credentials and the companies I'd like to work for don't care for them either, but unfortunately the government cares because that's their only grading system for people (it's not like they're gonna look at your GitHub profile). There have been several companies in the past years that expressed their interest in hiring me but were put away by this problem. I don't blame them, I blame the system.
- jordinl 15y ago
  I think it's a Bachelors degree or the equivalent years of experience, with one year of a degree being equivalent to 4 years of work experience. So you would need 12 or 16 years of work experience...
  - jurre 15y ago
    That's funny because in the real world I think it's more like the other way around, 1 year of work experience is like 4 years of a degree. (Note: I'm currently studying cs)
    - jordinl 15y ago
      Yeah, 1 year work experience > 1 degree IMO
    - masylum 15y ago
      totally agree on that one :)
  - fbuilesv 15y ago
    It's actually 3 years of work experience per university year. For most countries outside the US that's still at least 9-12 years of work experience. When people ask me what the downsides of dropping out of college were, this one is the most important.
    - jordinl 15y ago
uptownben 15y ago
It's been my experience that even without the visa issue, US companies tend to shy away from hiring remote talent. I am a US citizen with a solid mobile development background, and have gotten great responses from companies that have reviewed my resume, until they realize that I currently live outside the US. It seems that while the visa process may be an issue, getting over the "hurdle" of hiring remote workers still seems to be a major issue also.
lucian303 15y ago
3 hours max. Lol. How about 8? As far as the interview. Stupid questions asked by stupid people who can't tell a techie from their asshole. Should be a technical discussion not an interrogation. Their loss.
Void_ 15y ago
Hey, 20y old programmer here. I feel like I could never pass an interview with these brain teasers. Also, I've never really had an interview. And I've had some pretty good jobs, but I never got them for solving math problems. Seems to me it requires a person that falls in one of these categories: - having a job that includes solving math problems - I'm web/mobile - motivated enough to prepare for it (I could believe that) - I would probably do this if I wanted the job - people who are so freakishly smart they can solve it right away - This is my idea of Google engineers, but it's not me - people who have fun solving math problems - I love to see things working, so not me What do you think is the best strategy to increase my chances if I ever get to do an interview like that?
- ntkachov 15y ago
  I'm in the same boat as you (20,web/mobile). I've done my fair share of interview and here's what I've found: Anything that's worth doing involves a heavy amount of math. Most of my day is spend doing UI and I tend to deal with a heavy amount of math each day. So I don't know what you mean by "I'm web/mobile" but unless you are purely a designer*, your doing math. The math that they ask at interviews usually doesn't involve anything that isn't reasonably expected to be in an algorithms book. To that extent they usually avoid some of the more specialized algorithms. eg, I've had BSTs but not Red-black trees but it's not unusual to have a question on RBTs depending on the company. Other than knowing your algos really well that's about it.
- mahyarm 15y ago
  Most of the puzzle questions are straight out of a CS education. Actually it mostly concentrates on about 3 classes worth of CS, your algorithms course, your operating systems/multi-threading course, your networking class and maybe your discrete math course. Of those the most important is your algorithms course. Those happen be the harder classes too and are the core of a CS education. Unless it reveals a deficiency that you had in your CS education or some skill set they are hiring for (and even then), it's okay to say: I've never encountered that before and then try to work through it.
- groby_b 15y ago
  I agree that the puzzles are bad interview questions. But if you want a _specific_ job, it's always a good idea to find out about the interview culture (if you can, it's almost impossible for small companies) and then prep for the interview at hand. I guess that falls under "motivated enough" :) If you want to be prepared in a general sense, get "How would you move Mount Fuji", a book on those interview puzzlers. The upside of most of those puzzles is that the answer is blindingly obvious once you read it the first time. So read that book, and you're done ;)
imapisit 15y ago
putting my very first comment in HN here. Does anyone have any experience or know the process with transferring from F-1(ESL school) to H-1B? From What I've been told the process is F-1 > OPT > H-1B but currently,I'm in ESL school and can't get OPT. Briefly background :BSc from Thailand computer science,6 years experience with .Net full stack,Agile,Scrum,CMMI level 3,lately really into mobile app development(iOS almost 1 year) I started applying for jobs by looking on the job listing site and even post my resume on craigslist. got several job interviews at the time apparently by phone which both directly from company and recruiter. overall,the interview went pretty well then last question I was asked what is your currently work status I told them F-1 student visa.... nailed it...Well,never get a call back. never give up I jump in every single opportunity, read every searched result to start my startup in USA (e.g. blueseed,startup visa act). Went on one face-to-face job interview and finally,got a job offer as software engineer and assistant software architect they told me that they are willing to sponsor me for H-1B. They made a contact with one law firm and I got a couple forwarded emails from them which being said how the process works and how much will it cost blah..blah..blah (the company tried to show me that they were starting the process getting me a working visa). the law firm asked what school are you in right now I said I'm in ESL school then they said you will get a better chance if you are not in ESL school but either graduate school or college which majoring in any field that related to the job.(software engineer). This led me to my question above and I would like to know your opinion that Is there any chance for me to get a working visa in this situation? Thank you.
devsys 15y ago
Not an uncommon situation in my experience. Hiring in the valley has never been less skillful or less transparent. Even if you are not a developer and you do have many successful projects you still have to answer sometimes rediculous questions from people who really don't know any better. Even professional recruiters are at a loss as to how to deal with this.
happywolf 15y ago
Agree. I am currently hiring in Shanghai and even though the salary my company offers is way above market average (it even surpasses the average in Singapore), but I am still having a _very_ hard time to find experienced candidates with more than 5 years of software engineering experience. No, my coding questions are straight forward and no tricks embedded. I do ask some open-ended engineering questions, just to see if a candidate can narrow down the solution space by posing assumptions.
- zrgiu_ 15y ago
  please, details
  - happywolf 15y ago
    Details on..?
    - smokinn 15y ago
      I imagine he wants company name/links to job postings.
nir 15y ago
This often baffles me, as a foreigner in America (currently in a position where I occasionally hire people). The American employee is probably the least protected in the West. Firing is about as simple & cheap as it gets outside of an Indonesian sweatshop. Many start as contractors anyway. The upside should have been that companies would be quicker to hire. Instead sprung a weird culture of "the four hour interview" (sometimes several of these). There's actually not that much you can find out about someone before hiring them: "Show me a piece of code you've written" - hopefully it's on GitHub or similar, ideally forked by some other people too - "Tell me about some design decisions you made when building this". You should also try to gauge personality, motivation, curiosity and chemistry. That's about all you'll know, regardless of how convoluted your process. But fortunately you're not in France, so if it doesn't work out you can always go your separate ways. When companies take too long to hire it usually indicates fear of making decisions. Interviewers are afraid to say someone's a good/bad fit. The CTO is afraid to look bad for hiring the wrong person. It's probably not going to be a fun place to work if you want to create new things.
wyclif 15y ago
This thread depresses me; I just read every comment. As an American, the visa stuff makes me sad, because it tells me that the system is broken. But what really gets to me, as a newbie developer, is the interview and hiring commentary. It makes me feel like there's just no hope for somebody like me-- I don't have a CS degree and come from the world of humanities and liberal arts. The furthest I went with math in Uni was Discrete. I don't take tests well, and I'm no good with heavy duty algorithmic methodology (though I do know some of them). I don't have any formulae memorized. I tend to think of programming like I do writing: I have great grammar, punctuation, and spelling. I'm afraid I would fail miserably at these gauntlet-style tests applied by big SV companies. I love technology and I love building things and what I'm doing now, but the path of achievement and improvement professionally from novice to indispensible pro often seems cloudy to me. I think our culture needs to spend more time and money on apprenticeship and helping less experienced developers reach that next rung on the ladder. I'm happy that there seems to be some movement now in that direction, with Khan Academy, Codecademy, Code Year, &c.
- nir 15y ago
  Don't let it get to you. The best developers I've worked with didn't come from CS background at all. Employers worth working for will know to look at what you've built and your passion creating/learning rather than whether you can quote a square root function from memory. We're fortunate: if you wanted to get a job as a lawyer you couldn't just go and win some cases to prove your ability. But developers can always build something cool to show what they can do. It won't get you to Google or IBM, but it'll get you to any startup worth its salt.
  - wyclif 15y ago
    Thanks. Does Google still demand CS degrees? I ask because I can think of several people doing dev there now that don't.
    - nir 15y ago
      If you're outstanding at your field, Google probably wouldn't mind, but if generally my impression is degrees are highly valued there.
astrofinch 15y ago
Fellow US citizens, we should be grateful for what we've got :P

165 points by masylum 15y ago

JOnAgain 15y ago

Wow, silence. So strange. Also strange about the visa. H1-B's were 'gone' this year (all were claimed fairly early), but they should have known that if they had looked into it at all. Unless you've had one before, the earliest you could start in the US is next November, but you have to be hired by April so they can apply on your behalf.

masylum 15y ago
They got other H1-B's easily before, but apparently this year they run out so fast!
- untog 15y ago
  It's actually more common for them to disappear quickly. I was extremely lucky the year I got mine- there were still some available around April. As I understand it, that's a rarity. Hooray for economic downturns?

michokest 15y ago

Immigration is such a complicated issue – talented workers attempting to immigrate into the country, and bureaucracy getting in the way.

rubashov 15y ago
We have very high unemployment. Also, the national identity and cohesion is swamped by a far too large influx of foreigners. There should be an immigration moratorium. Essentially zero people should be let in until there is robust job growth. There should be a much longer moratorium on granting foreigners citizenship. Immigration rates are far too high and on a course to create serious overpopulation problems in north america. https://www.numbersusa.com/content/ https://www.numbersusa.com/content/
- vandahm 15y ago
  It's true that the overall unemployment rate is alarmingly high, but my understanding is that the employment rate among software developers is quite low. In my area, at least, my sense is that there aren't enough developers looking for work to meet the demand for their labor. I guess it's theoretically possible to train unemployed nontechnical people to write code, but I don't see any viable plans to make that happen.
- danieldk 15y ago
  It's exactly this thinking that can kill science and startups. That there is unemployment, does not mean there is unemployment in every branch of the industry. In branches, where there is a lack of qualified workers, you need to take in immigrants, or you will become uncompetitive. Also, remember that there are many people who just want to work in a different country temporarily because it is good for their career+. E.g. here in The Netherlands, we have a high influx of Chinese students and PhD candidates. But nearly all of them return once they have a degree (a degree from a Western university usually gives them good positions in China). + There seems to be a widely spread belief in the US that the rest of the world is envious, and would preferably want to live in the US. I have been in the US very often, but I'd never want to live in the US permanently. Social welfare, healthcare, paid leaves, pensions, etc. are so much better arranged in West Europe.
  - rubashov 15y ago
    > this thinking that can kill science and startups If an industry does not employ the native people in a country, or only enriches a clique of owners, then who cares if it leaves? In any case, this line of argument is malarkey. There is no evidence of restrictive immigration driving away business. Typically you just get an industry with higher capital investments and higher wages.
    - fijal 15y ago
      I for one, would welcome the entire Silicon Valley to move somewhere else.
    - 15y ago
hudibras 15y ago
The H1B visa is designed to provide foreign workers to a business in instances where doing so does not affect American workers. When the visa is denied, don't jump to the conclusion that the bureaucracy failed. The more likely result is that the bureaucracy worked because the company was either trying to hire a foreign worker for a job that many unemployed Americans could do or that they were trying to undercut currently-employed Americans' wages.

ntkachov 15y ago

I want to know what the stigma is over remoting. I know 37signals has quite a few remote engineers and they are doing quite well. There are loads of good engineers literally all over the country. But for some reason the Bay area would rather spend twice as much looking for local engineers than just hiring ones that are on the other side of the country. What gives?

wisty 15y ago
I'm willing to bet on-site engineers (especially those with H1B1s) are more loyal. It cuts both ways though - a freelancer knows they are first to go if they company needs to cut back.
- krallja 15y ago
  Freelancing is not the same thing as a remote employee.
aspir 15y ago
Having remote workers requires a very different operation style and a lot of trust in yourself as a manager, trust in your workers, and trust in the technology you're leveraging to communicate. Can you as the manager lead from afar -- its harder than you might think. You can trust workers to actually work, you can just let them go for not doing so. But it's harder to trust your remote workers to engage with the company and their peers digitally. It's not easy. Also, the technology may be a pain to use, and kill any good intentions or habits you may have started. The similar problem with remote is that the manager and their team must consciously prevent the "silence" the author alluded too. Likely, the silence was not intentional. People get distracted in "realspace" and easily can neglect remote worker. In order to have a remote team be viable, you have to overcome this barrier. That's where the trust/competence of all parties comes into play.
- smallblacksun 15y ago
  There are other problems with remote workers. You can't have a face-to-face conversation. A remote worker can't go into a coworkers office and help track down a tricky bug. These issues can be alleviated to some extent by email, phones, and video-conferencing, but those things require a fair amount of work to set up and still aren't the same as having the person in the office.

kokey 15y ago

I've had similar things happen to me. The best approach is to be on top of how the visa works, the quotas, the timings and the best visa agencies a potential employer should use to get you in. Often companies assume it's going to be easy and pull out after making commitments based on that assumption (and also go silent, like in my case) That said, the author seems to be quite employable, I hope someone spots him for some remote work or lets him join a branch somewhere in the EU and transfer him across on an L1 visa.

masylum 15y ago
Right now I'm currently working at teambox.com, I just wanted to share my experience.

triggit 15y ago

If you want an H1-B, you need to apply to start work on October 1. We didn't even put in an application for our H1-B candidate until September and he received his H1-B in early October. Clearly just another demonstration of the USAs primitive immigration policy! You also have to be very careful coming to San Francisco to look for a job and then applying for an H1-B ...theoretically that is against 'the rules' so make sure both you and your future employer are comfortable with the situation. I'd say try again next summer, I'd bet you find success. The $5K for an H1-B is nothing for a great dev!

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

oscardelben 15y ago

I'm going through the process myself, and getting to work in the US is extremely complicated. Whenever I talk with local people (even immigrants) how hard it is to get a visa in the US nobody believes me, but sadly it's the truth. Remote workers is not the solution though, you should be able to get a visa easily for a highly specialized job.

praxxis 15y ago

It's worth noting that the H1B is not the only type of visa that exists for hiring developers. Australians are able to use the E3, which is like a H1B but only available to Australians. Consequently it's easier to get, as long as you have a degree/work experience.

cletus 15y ago
I came here to post this because most people don't know about it. It has some key differences to the H1B however: - It is a 2 year visa (H1B is 3 year) and renewable indefinitely (typically H1Bs allow one renewal); - The E3 by default is a multiple-entry visa; - Renewing the visa inside the US is a huge pain. It takes months from USCIS and it's more expensive than obtaining a new visa (which can only be done outside the US); - You don't renew your visa, you renew your status. This means if you leave the US after the visa expires but your status has been renewed you have to get a new visa anyway; - The H1B visa requires a labor certification for the position and "proof" that you were unable to find a domestically qualified candidate. The E3 visa only requires the labor certification so has a much lower barrier to entry.
- dmnd 15y ago
  Plus the spouse of an E3 holder is allowed to work.
- spearo77 15y ago
  Technically, you can't renew an existing E3 visa. You must re-apply, and as I learned a few months ago going through the process, the subsequent visas will be E3R. Also, and E3D is apparently easy to obtain. It allows "dependents" (spouse, children) to accompany you to the US, even permitting them a small amount of part time work. In addition, an E3 does not allow "dual intent". i.e. you may not seek permanent status in the US while holding an E3 visa. This means no Green Card applications, including the Green Card Lottery. One other thing that may not be unique to the E3, but is worth understanding is that your tenuous presence in the US is bound to the employment quite tightly. If you quit your job, or are let go (startup winds up, etc), you must exit the US within 10 days. That's 10 days to pack up your things and leave the country.

fourmii 15y ago

Thanks for sharing the experience. I went through the H1B visa process a number of years ago. Although it's pretty tough being treated like you did, I think you and possibly the offering company went into the arrangement without enough information. I remember that the H1B pool is relatively small (in the 10's of thousands) per year. And that well connected immigration lawyers and sponsoring companies usually exhaust that pool within the first day they are released. After that, it's virtually impossible to get a H1B. And when you if you're lucky enough to be able to wrangle a H1B, it's a pretty convoluted and costly (for the sponsoring company) application process. Good luck with the next round of H1Bs, the sponsoring company (and lawyers) need to get in quickly! You sound like a well qualified dev, and it's a shame that the US misses out on good talent because of an inadequate immigration system...

tompetty 15y ago
A close friend (in the UK) was approached by a company (In the US) this June with the offer of a job. The H1B process wasn't started until August and he picked up his successful application in mid October. The quota (55,000 or so) goes quickly, but varies by the year and can take several months to be filled completely
pavelkaroukin 15y ago
Visa cap was a problem during 2006-2008. Starting from 2009 it became much slower. (for example, in 2008 whole main h1b cap was taken with in 1st day of april and even between these who "took" it there was a lottery. On the other hand, for 2009 visa cap was used only in September)

untog 15y ago

Sadly, the drama doesn't even end after getting your visa. Over six months ago I applied for an H1B transfer to a new job- they replied requesting a confirmation letter from every employer I've had since college saying that I am, indeed, a developer, and not some sort of fraud. My transfer is still pending, making every return journey back into the US a stressful experience. This, after I've already been working in the US for two years- you would have thought they'd have asked for the letters when I applied the first time. My H1B three year limit is in November of this year. I can apply to extend for another three years, but I can't wait to see what nonsense they throw my way when I try.

coderdude 15y ago
They probably make it a pain because they don't want you to spend the next decade making money here and sending it back to the mother country.
- jethroalias97 15y ago
  Since most of these laws are written by politicians and not economists it's more likely that they want to appear tough on immigration to avoid "dey took our jerbs!" style anger from the electorate. It's sort of like how clubs force people to wait in line outside even when there is room. If they let everyone in, it might start to feel crowded and less fun.
- BadassFractal 15y ago
  Except that doesn't explain why they'd make getting permanent residency so difficult. If they were interested in keeping your hard-earned dollars in the US, they'd try to keep you in forever. Instead you have to deal with the wonderful world of employer sponsored green card and your 15 year-long wait.
- untog 15y ago
  You appear to be complaining about effect, not cause. Every US immigrant I've spoken to wants to stay here, build up savings, buy a house, etc. I do too. But if there is no path for me to become a permanent resident then, yes, I'm going to take my savings and go home. I don't want to, but I won't have a choice. Making the immigration process difficult is counter-productive for everyone.

Brajeshwar 15y ago

Legally, you cannot seek employment while you're in US (B1 Visa). Hell, you're not even supposed to work and be paid while in the US. You can be reimbursed for travel, accommodation, food, etc. You can work if you're work is in agreement while you were in your country (outside US) but came to US to talk to your client, blah blah. Yes, April 1 is the day H1 Applications are officially opened for filing for worker coming in from October 1. However, with the recent lack of demands, blame the US economy and a much more strict Immigration rules, you're likely to be able to apply till end of year or even more. Last year's quota was available till late November if I can remember correctly (2010's quota was available till Feb of 2011). But, do not wait for April 1, get your lawyer (or the company's lawyer) to start the paperworks and be ready before April 1. That way, you're likely to know the result earlier. Of course, founders (executive roles) can look at L1 for a better alternative Visa than the H1. Note: Your lawyer will also advised you to leave US soil before applying for your H1 else you're complicating yourself. Translation, you're soliciting yourself (being interviewed, meeting prospective employer) and that is not allowed.

ovi256 15y ago
Given that the H1B must be sponsored by an employer, how are you supposed to find one if you shouldn't "solicit", go to interviews, meet people ? Is this a catch-22 ? Nobody ever got legally an H1B ?
- galadriel 15y ago
  One way would be to that the companies interview you in your countries. This usually happens with on-campus recruitment. Other way is that you are on some other visa (other than B-1), that does allows you to solicit, give interviews, etc. For example at the end of F-1 study visa, you can go around and shop for some time to get a job, and the company will then sponsor for your H1B.
  - GuiA 15y ago
    Actually, at the end of an F1 visa, provided that you got a degree, you can work under OPT for 12 months, with a possible 17 months extension if you're in STEM. At the end of those (12+17) months you can seek H1B.

buss 15y ago

I'm curious about the author's opinion of the puzzles he had to answer while interviewing. I know most of us in the US are used to this style of interview, so it would be interesting to hear more about Pau's experience. I've been reading up about hiring and interviewing, and shockingly enough there isn't any good research I can find on effective hiring practices. I worry that asking puzzles and brain teasers is just a fad that isn't doing anything to pick out the best candidates. There's no real evidence that we're doing it right...

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
antninja 15y ago
Personally I would reply that I'm an application developer and none of those questions are related to my job. 'this' refers to the object, I don't give a shit how it works. From their questions, I would say they're searching for a low-level library developer with a strong background in mathematics.
- ludwigvan 15y ago
  >> " 'this' refers to the object, I don't give a shit how it works." Well, it is quite important knowing how `this` works in JavaScript. See: http://www.digital-web.com/articles/scope_in_javascript/ http://www.digital-web.com/articles/scope_in_javascript/
  - ntkachov 15y ago
    Also its really important to know how float works in javascript. because 0.1 + 0.2 != 0.3 in Javascript. I don't know why "application developer" == "Don't have to know how the thing I'm using works" Quite frankly I can never get away from knowing how the thing I'm using works. My greatest wish is that in 2050 we will create a computer language that has no performance penalties and all the JITers/vms/compilers are invisible to me. Until then I'm forced to learn all the inner workings of my languages if I want them to run reasonably.
- 15y ago

peacemaker 15y ago

Hey I've got a green card and I'm having major problems, not really sure why. Just today I was rejected from a job where I absolutely aced the interview process. No feedback as to why but I'm thinking there is something lost in translation. I'm from the UK, been coding C++ for over 10 years and love it, even coding in my spare time. When I meet people at interviews I get good feedback, answer 99% of the questions no problems and generally do well. Yet still, for some reason and despite the massive demand for software engineers, I'm just not getting anything. Never had this problem in the UK... but just wanted to let you know that it seems you're not alone.

Arelius 15y ago
My impression is that the market is much different for people wanting to do systems and c++ development. Very few postings, and those that do exist are getting swamped underqualified applications, among others.
christkv 15y ago
we are hiring system level people at 10gen to work on mongodb so if you are interested ping me christkv at 10gen
- peacemaker 15y ago
  Will do, thanks!

brunosan 15y ago

I went through a similar process twice. In my case it went rather smooth, but I am a scientist not a programmer. I made this post to summarize my experience: http://bit.ly/zMEHfr http://bit.ly/zMEHfr

galadriel 15y ago
I thought NIV was usually used with application for EB2 Green card. Is there a NIV category in H1B too?
- brunosan 15y ago
  I went back to my Visa application. You are right. I´ll edit my post. There are certain cases where there is no cap. The one that applies to me is "A nonprofit research organization or governmental research organization." 8 CFR 214.2 (h) (19) (iii) (C) My mind played tricks (back when I was researcher there was that option to increase your chances). However I do remember that presenting a legal case that my skills were worth was an important factor to get the H1B.
chollida1 15y ago
In case anyone is afraid of clicking on random bit.ly links, the above link expands to: http://brunosan.eu/2012/01/04/being-recruited-in-the-usa/ http://brunosan.eu/2012/01/04/being-recruited-in-the-usa/

trustfundbaby 15y ago

I think the poster might be a little naive about the H1-B process and how unattractive it is for small companies. Make no bones about it. Its a major hassle, and if you leave it to the company it will (usually) never happen. So advice for people in the same boat in the future, If it is something you really want to do, then you need to know exactly how the process works at every step of the way and also have a really good Lawyer that the company can talk to if they have questions. They can help you if tricky things come up (and they will if the company applying for you is small enough). I advise you not to go with a lawyer from a big firm, those guys just want to see dollars ... and if your case is small and tricky they will not be interested. trust me. Try to find an individual or small firm that is responsive and knows the ins and outs of the process far better than you ... if possible ask them to tell you the trickiest situation they've helped a client with before ... that should give you some idea of how good they are. Usually they can bill you for their time spent talking the company, or their lawyer down from the ledge (this will happen), or if they handle the process then you or the company can pay their fees. Lay out the process when the company asks about it (because they will usually not know), let them know that its not complex, just a pain in the ass and that you will handle most of the legwork (you're prepared to do this right?) ... some people chip in to help with the fees if they're so inclined ... this is frowned upon and I think the law has been changed to make it illegal, use that information as you want. Above all, be persistent, upbeat and constantly in touch, do not think that a company is going to jump through hoops to pay $5000 to get you. And remember that some of the requests that are made of the company (like tax returns etc) might cause them to stall, so be prepared for that. It will come down to how bad you want it. good luck

georgieporgie 15y ago

I think there's not so much a talent shortage so much as there's a shortage of engineers who are gifted at contrived puzzle questions and willing to accept average pay for exceptional ability.

buss 15y ago
In my experience interviewing candidates for Amazon(1), there is definitely a talent shortage. We get a surprising amount of applicants that can't write a basic program. Personally, I reject 4/5 of all applicants at the phone screen because they couldn't write a very simple program. I use a collaborative code editor so I can see what the person is typing, and I don't give trick problems. I pose the question, and ask them to think about it before coding. Once they've landed on an acceptable solution, I ask them to write it up. 80% of the time it's broken or they can't finish it (these solutions should be 20 lines or fewer). On at least one occasion the answer was copied directly from stack overflow :\. Trick questions are all the rage, but I'm not convinced that they actually highlight a competent developer. The problem (in tech, not specifically at Amazon) is we're all trying to emulate Google, and since they ask brain teasers then we have to ask them too, because it must be the one true way. In summary, I think there is both a shortage of good devs, and contrived puzzle questions are not actually an good for evaluating a candidate. (1) These views expressed are my own, and not necessarily the views of Amazon or its employees. Disclaimer added at my own discretion, not due to any corporate policy.
- jsnell 15y ago
  Nobody should be asked brainteasers in a Google engineering interview. I have no idea where those bogus "20 Google interview questions" lists with stupid puzzles come from. But really the interviews are supposed to cover things like coding, algorithms, and systems design.
- onemoreact 15y ago
  Amazon has a terrible reputation which may distort who shows up. I have done conducted plenty of interviews for a few company's and having a solid reputation drastically improves the quality of candidates show up. EX: Microsoft has middle of the road reputation and I know people that would literary consider with them at 120k to be a better option than 140k at Amazon.

greedoshotlast 15y ago

I'd have to agree with your point: "Most of them are doable but I think they are probably missing amazing developers that may not know how to solve those problems, but they are capable of solving real-life problems (fix this bug, port this library, refactor this code...)." I do believe some startups are missing out on some amazingly talented developers by making this your rubric. Some people just don't some solve puzzles well, in the same way some people don't perform stellar on tests, but does that mean they are not capable of writing great code. Not at all. I've met some stellar coders who do not solve timed puzzle or timed tests well. Will someone please explain to me exactly why solving a puzzle is a indicator of potential workplace success. Do you want to hire puzzle solvers or actual developers? Should I spend my time improving my puzzle solving skills or churning out code that solves real-life problems?

gvb 15y ago
Puzzles are human benchmarks. Like all benchmarks, their objectives are: 1) They have to be short enough to complete in a "reasonable" amount of time. 2) They have to have enough resolution to distinguish between good, better, and best. 3) They have to be representative of the real life problems that the person / computer will be solving. Most benchmarks only meet objective #1. Further, benchmarks that only meet objective #1 are easily "game-able". Benchmarks which meet objectives #2 and #3 invariably don't meet #1, which makes them hard to use as a benchmark.
devs1010 15y ago
I agree, its utter nonsense for the most part, it seems some companies just want you to jump through a bunch of hoops and to make you feel stupid. I think having you work on a small contracted project or something related to the business domain would be a lot more useful.
- buss 15y ago
  That would probably be more useful, but it doesn't scale. An interview like that takes up a ton of resources and can leave a bad impression on a candidate. Not only are you paying for devs to help and evaluate the candidate, you are doing this over a much longer period than a traditional interview, and you have to pay the candidate for the work they did, even if you're going to throw it out. Nobody wants to force candidates to jump through hoops or make them feel stupid. That's a recipe for bad word-of-mouth and never hiring good devs. When I conduct interviews, I always try to make people feel like they did an OK job. I don't want them to get off the phone thinking they did really poorly. I try hard to seem impartial, but that's often quite difficult to do. The root problem is that nobody knows what the hell they're doing in interviews. We don't know the best way to evaluate candidates, so we try various things that are ineffective or wasteful. Eventually we'll figure it out.

droithomme 15y ago

Wow, having someone implement a square root algorithm on the spot, that's quite a question to ask. I agree that is a terrible question because not many top developers would be able to answer it on the spot unless they had recently happened to have implemented it. It's not like it's an obvious algorithm. I could mention the existence of Carmack's root algorithm, which I don't have memorized but I do know he got from someone else, and flop around a bit. It's weird there are so many companies claiming to not be able to find people but you hear about their hiring process and it's no wonder.

dpritchett 15y ago
Newton's method is dead simple to implement, you just have to remember it. http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/chapter1/node9.html http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/chapter1/node9.html
- drbaskin 15y ago
  If you're handy with simple algebra (and can remember that the derivative of x^2 is 2x) then you can remember the picture. If f(x) = x^2 - N, then you're looking for the (positive) zero of f. You take a succession of tangent lines and look at the zeros of those. So, you start with a guess (call it x_0), take the tangent line at your guess (so it has slope 2x_0 and goes through (x_0, x_0^2 -N)), then find the x-intercept of this line and make it your new guess. This is all Newton's method is. With square roots, it takes the form of averaging your previous guess and N over it.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  Esoteric algorithms would be much more useful questions, IMO, if the interviewer gave you a birds-eye overview of an algorithm you cannot possibly have heard of and then have you implement it. That actually tests your chops rather than your memory. For example, everybody knows merge sort, but assuming they didn't, draw out a couple iterations in a graph and ask them to code it.

jay_kyburz 15y ago

how do you delay a function to the next tick in javascript?

andrewem 15y ago
That phrasing isn't very precise, but I presume they mean to use setTimeout and pass a timeout of 0 [0]. That link has some discussion of this use and suggests using window.postMessage instead, at least on "modern browsers", for a suitable definition of modern. [0] https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.setTimeout https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.setTimeout
masylum 15y ago
setTimeout(fn, 0);
djblaze 15y ago
Im assuming we are talking client-side and 'next tick' means when there is a millisecond of free time. Just use: setTimeout(function, 0) Technically supplying '0' as the milliseconds is bad in old browsers, so you might want to say 10...but I've used '0' a lot without fail.

mislav 15y ago

Worth noting that H1B is more difficult to get without a college degree (so I've been told). I have no credentials and the companies I'd like to work for don't care for them either, but unfortunately the government cares because that's their only grading system for people (it's not like they're gonna look at your GitHub profile). There have been several companies in the past years that expressed their interest in hiring me but were put away by this problem. I don't blame them, I blame the system.

jordinl 15y ago
I think it's a Bachelors degree or the equivalent years of experience, with one year of a degree being equivalent to 4 years of work experience. So you would need 12 or 16 years of work experience...
- jurre 15y ago
  That's funny because in the real world I think it's more like the other way around, 1 year of work experience is like 4 years of a degree. (Note: I'm currently studying cs)
  - jordinl 15y ago
    Yeah, 1 year work experience > 1 degree IMO
  - masylum 15y ago
    totally agree on that one :)
- fbuilesv 15y ago
  It's actually 3 years of work experience per university year. For most countries outside the US that's still at least 9-12 years of work experience. When people ask me what the downsides of dropping out of college were, this one is the most important.
  - jordinl 15y ago

uptownben 15y ago

It's been my experience that even without the visa issue, US companies tend to shy away from hiring remote talent. I am a US citizen with a solid mobile development background, and have gotten great responses from companies that have reviewed my resume, until they realize that I currently live outside the US. It seems that while the visa process may be an issue, getting over the "hurdle" of hiring remote workers still seems to be a major issue also.

lucian303 15y ago

3 hours max. Lol. How about 8? As far as the interview. Stupid questions asked by stupid people who can't tell a techie from their asshole. Should be a technical discussion not an interrogation. Their loss.

Void_ 15y ago

Hey, 20y old programmer here. I feel like I could never pass an interview with these brain teasers. Also, I've never really had an interview. And I've had some pretty good jobs, but I never got them for solving math problems. Seems to me it requires a person that falls in one of these categories: - having a job that includes solving math problems - I'm web/mobile - motivated enough to prepare for it (I could believe that) - I would probably do this if I wanted the job - people who are so freakishly smart they can solve it right away - This is my idea of Google engineers, but it's not me - people who have fun solving math problems - I love to see things working, so not me What do you think is the best strategy to increase my chances if I ever get to do an interview like that?

ntkachov 15y ago
I'm in the same boat as you (20,web/mobile). I've done my fair share of interview and here's what I've found: Anything that's worth doing involves a heavy amount of math. Most of my day is spend doing UI and I tend to deal with a heavy amount of math each day. So I don't know what you mean by "I'm web/mobile" but unless you are purely a designer*, your doing math. The math that they ask at interviews usually doesn't involve anything that isn't reasonably expected to be in an algorithms book. To that extent they usually avoid some of the more specialized algorithms. eg, I've had BSTs but not Red-black trees but it's not unusual to have a question on RBTs depending on the company. Other than knowing your algos really well that's about it.
mahyarm 15y ago
Most of the puzzle questions are straight out of a CS education. Actually it mostly concentrates on about 3 classes worth of CS, your algorithms course, your operating systems/multi-threading course, your networking class and maybe your discrete math course. Of those the most important is your algorithms course. Those happen be the harder classes too and are the core of a CS education. Unless it reveals a deficiency that you had in your CS education or some skill set they are hiring for (and even then), it's okay to say: I've never encountered that before and then try to work through it.
groby_b 15y ago
I agree that the puzzles are bad interview questions. But if you want a _specific_ job, it's always a good idea to find out about the interview culture (if you can, it's almost impossible for small companies) and then prep for the interview at hand. I guess that falls under "motivated enough" :) If you want to be prepared in a general sense, get "How would you move Mount Fuji", a book on those interview puzzlers. The upside of most of those puzzles is that the answer is blindingly obvious once you read it the first time. So read that book, and you're done ;)

imapisit 15y ago

putting my very first comment in HN here. Does anyone have any experience or know the process with transferring from F-1(ESL school) to H-1B? From What I've been told the process is F-1 > OPT > H-1B but currently,I'm in ESL school and can't get OPT. Briefly background :BSc from Thailand computer science,6 years experience with .Net full stack,Agile,Scrum,CMMI level 3,lately really into mobile app development(iOS almost 1 year) I started applying for jobs by looking on the job listing site and even post my resume on craigslist. got several job interviews at the time apparently by phone which both directly from company and recruiter. overall,the interview went pretty well then last question I was asked what is your currently work status I told them F-1 student visa.... nailed it...Well,never get a call back. never give up I jump in every single opportunity, read every searched result to start my startup in USA (e.g. blueseed,startup visa act). Went on one face-to-face job interview and finally,got a job offer as software engineer and assistant software architect they told me that they are willing to sponsor me for H-1B. They made a contact with one law firm and I got a couple forwarded emails from them which being said how the process works and how much will it cost blah..blah..blah (the company tried to show me that they were starting the process getting me a working visa). the law firm asked what school are you in right now I said I'm in ESL school then they said you will get a better chance if you are not in ESL school but either graduate school or college which majoring in any field that related to the job.(software engineer). This led me to my question above and I would like to know your opinion that Is there any chance for me to get a working visa in this situation? Thank you.

devsys 15y ago

Not an uncommon situation in my experience. Hiring in the valley has never been less skillful or less transparent. Even if you are not a developer and you do have many successful projects you still have to answer sometimes rediculous questions from people who really don't know any better. Even professional recruiters are at a loss as to how to deal with this.

happywolf 15y ago

Agree. I am currently hiring in Shanghai and even though the salary my company offers is way above market average (it even surpasses the average in Singapore), but I am still having a _very_ hard time to find experienced candidates with more than 5 years of software engineering experience. No, my coding questions are straight forward and no tricks embedded. I do ask some open-ended engineering questions, just to see if a candidate can narrow down the solution space by posing assumptions.

zrgiu_ 15y ago
please, details
- happywolf 15y ago
  Details on..?
  - smokinn 15y ago
    I imagine he wants company name/links to job postings.

nir 15y ago

This often baffles me, as a foreigner in America (currently in a position where I occasionally hire people). The American employee is probably the least protected in the West. Firing is about as simple & cheap as it gets outside of an Indonesian sweatshop. Many start as contractors anyway. The upside should have been that companies would be quicker to hire. Instead sprung a weird culture of "the four hour interview" (sometimes several of these). There's actually not that much you can find out about someone before hiring them: "Show me a piece of code you've written" - hopefully it's on GitHub or similar, ideally forked by some other people too - "Tell me about some design decisions you made when building this". You should also try to gauge personality, motivation, curiosity and chemistry. That's about all you'll know, regardless of how convoluted your process. But fortunately you're not in France, so if it doesn't work out you can always go your separate ways. When companies take too long to hire it usually indicates fear of making decisions. Interviewers are afraid to say someone's a good/bad fit. The CTO is afraid to look bad for hiring the wrong person. It's probably not going to be a fun place to work if you want to create new things.

wyclif 15y ago

This thread depresses me; I just read every comment. As an American, the visa stuff makes me sad, because it tells me that the system is broken. But what really gets to me, as a newbie developer, is the interview and hiring commentary. It makes me feel like there's just no hope for somebody like me-- I don't have a CS degree and come from the world of humanities and liberal arts. The furthest I went with math in Uni was Discrete. I don't take tests well, and I'm no good with heavy duty algorithmic methodology (though I do know some of them). I don't have any formulae memorized. I tend to think of programming like I do writing: I have great grammar, punctuation, and spelling. I'm afraid I would fail miserably at these gauntlet-style tests applied by big SV companies. I love technology and I love building things and what I'm doing now, but the path of achievement and improvement professionally from novice to indispensible pro often seems cloudy to me. I think our culture needs to spend more time and money on apprenticeship and helping less experienced developers reach that next rung on the ladder. I'm happy that there seems to be some movement now in that direction, with Khan Academy, Codecademy, Code Year, &c.

nir 15y ago
Don't let it get to you. The best developers I've worked with didn't come from CS background at all. Employers worth working for will know to look at what you've built and your passion creating/learning rather than whether you can quote a square root function from memory. We're fortunate: if you wanted to get a job as a lawyer you couldn't just go and win some cases to prove your ability. But developers can always build something cool to show what they can do. It won't get you to Google or IBM, but it'll get you to any startup worth its salt.
- wyclif 15y ago
  Thanks. Does Google still demand CS degrees? I ask because I can think of several people doing dev there now that don't.
  - nir 15y ago
    If you're outstanding at your field, Google probably wouldn't mind, but if generally my impression is degrees are highly valued there.

astrofinch 15y ago

Fellow US citizens, we should be grateful for what we've got :P