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> “ With current technology, full electrification isn’t possible now for some parts of our fleet, but we are monitoring closely and really hope it will be,” Gr

> “ With current technology, full electrification isn’t possible now for some parts of our fleet, but we are monitoring closely and really hope it will be,” Gragnani said. We are really letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. At this moment in time, Plug-in hybrids are the superior technology for nearly every application. I don't understand why they get so overlooked by consumers and manufacturers alike.

Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
I've been saying this for years. I just don't understand it. A car that can drive ~40 miles on pure electric that has an ICE for longer trips would satisfy the needs of everyone. For like 90+% of people, it would mean never using gas for their commute while also eliminating range anxiety. I'm especially surprised about the lack of plug-in hybrids for semi trucks. I'd think having a little extra electronic torque would help considerably when accelerating. It doesn't need to go 0-60 in 20 seconds while carrying 80K lbs like the Tesla Semi claims, but certainly having extra power could be useful in some scenarios. Heck, just having regen braking would be a game changer when going down hills. No noise from a Jake Brake, and no worries about burning up brake pads.
- xenadu02 4y ago
  This more than doubles the complexity, increases weight, has much lower battery capacity, and still sticks you with the maintenance work required for the ICE. Plus gas is a very volatile mix that degrades; you must run the ICE regularly to ensure the tank gets cycled.
  - dekhn 4y ago
    Uh, exactly how long can I go between running the ICE engine before... something(?) happens to my gas and engine?
    - hattmall 4y ago
      It's unlikely to be a one time thing. But recurrently letting gas sit for extended periods of time could cause issues. This mostly only applies to ethanol containing fuels. This is why boats need to use 100% gas. You should do the same for a plugin hybrid if you don't cycle the tank at least every 2-3 weeks. That's all it takes to damage a boat if it sits. Cars will be better but the repeated exposure would certainly take a toll.
      - legitster 4y ago
        BMW had something for their i3 that ran the engine automatically every so often for this very reason. But they also only stuck it with a 2 gallon tank.
        hangonhn 4y ago
        My friends LOVE their i3 and it was like their gateway drug to EVs. I think if BMW had kept going on that concept, it would have create a true winner. They NEVER needed to refill their backup tank in the 2 or 3 years they leased. I think BMW did something special to make the gas tank keep the gasoline that long. In that span of time, battery mode satisfied all their needs and they loved driving it.
      - dekhn 4y ago
        What does "take a toll" mean? Sorry to be difficult but people tell me a lot of things will damage my car in the long term, but I haven't been able to reproduce any of those problems yet. The only thing that damaged my car was putting too much oil in it, that caused it to fail nearly immediately, and was covered by the warranty so it was free to replace the whole engine.
        colechristensen 4y ago
        Eh, your car will run a little shitty with the old gas, leaving an engine without running it for extended periods can cause somewhat faster corrosion depending on your environment, and old gas can increase things like various gunk getting deposited around your engine. All in all, a mild shortening of the life of your engine and perhaps triggering some maintenance sooner than otherwise. Realistically, not much. The people saying “bad for you” aren’t wrong but they also fail to mention the effect size. It’s not particularly relevant unless you want to own the same car for a few hundred thousand miles and absolutely minimize maintenance. (Small aircraft for example, you want to care a lot about these things because they’re very expensive, when the engine fails you’ll be thousands of feet above the ground, and a well maintained plane can last decades. Your daily driver probably doesn’t have any of these issues) There are various preventative things you can do to minimize the effects anyway. It’s one of those internet things where yeah they’re not wrong exactly but they need to relax. Having too much beer and cheeseburgers last night long term probably wasn’t the best decision, but you know what I’ll probably be fine. Leaking gas in a car for a long time is like eating too much fast food. Ok yeah not the greatest but are you the type of person who cares enough to never eat McDonald’s? Make your decisions according to your disposition and don’t take people telling you you’re wrong too seriously.
  - legitster 4y ago
    If you know ahead of time that the engine is going to run infrequently, there are lots of ways to mitigate this. The ICE is tantamount to a backup generator, and there are very reliable backup generators. > This more than doubles the complexity, increases weight I mean, US consumers already put up with this when it came to automatic transmissions. But the cost/maintenance problems were a fair trade-off for convenience. And in the case of plug-in hybrids, they are VERY convenient. You almost never need to get gas, but you can still go on a road trip without any pre-planning.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      > US consumers already put up with this when it came to automatic transmissions. Europeans, too. Automatics crossed over 50% in the last couple years.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    That doesn’t make sense, a lithium battery is heavier than an engine in the differentials we are talking about. The volt pretty much already is a case study for the other points. It’s not really that much work. The later point can be resolved with software that uses the gas on occasion.
  - enragedcacti 4y ago
    > This more than doubles the complexity hybrid systems are complex but really not much more complex than traditional ICE when you consider that they no longer need starters or alternators, have transmissions with no shifting components, and can use electric A/C compressors to avoid accessory belts entirely. They also have much longer maintenance intervals because the engine is only running ~2/3rds of the time. Electric cars are of course simpler but have cost and range issues that are prohibitive for some use cases, not to mention will usually weigh much more than even an equivalent plugin hybrid. Suffice to say there is a reason that the best taxi vehicle has been the Prius for more than a decade. efficient and rock solid reliable despite increased complexity. Most importantly though, you can make 10 plugin hybrids with the battery from one BEV. As long as raw materials for batteries are a bottleneck then we should be seriously considering PHEVs as a stopgap if as we can make sure they are getting charged.
  - twobitshifter 4y ago
    It doesn't have to double complexity. Look at the BMW i3 Rex - it used a basic range-extending generator and was ahead of its time. The weight savings of the Rex vs. a larger battery are significant. Most EVs carry around a battery that they'll only use 10% of on a typical day.
  - toast0 4y ago
    A Toyota Synergy style hybrid has a more mechanically simple transmission than an ICE plus a traditional transmission. I haven't seen numbers, but I'd be surprised if ICE plus a fuel system weighs more than 300 miles worth of batteries, but you get 600 miles of range with the ICE. You could easily get more, but PHEVs seem to be stuck with a 12 gallon tank. My PHEV has a two year maintenance cycle, and the ICE portion is changing the oil, mostly. Yes, at some point you'll need to do a timing chain/belt, and there's incidentals; you'll never need to replace emissions equipment on a BEV, and most of the unscheduled maintenance on my ICE equipped cars has been related to emissions: EGR valves, o2 sensors, EVAP canisters, etc. The engine control system takes care of running the ICE regularly, it's not something you have to worry about. I'd expect it to push you to fill up the tank about twice a year if you're mostly driving electric. I drive my PHEV mostly gas, and not that often anyway, so I just fill up every 500 miles or so.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
    As to your last point, designers of range extenders are obviously aware of this and handle it automatically. It'll chose to kick on occasionally even if the batter is nearly full.
- pastor_bob 4y ago
  Most people would never plug it in. This would only be ideal if you could make using gas significantly more cost inefficient (i.e. astronomically higher gas prices), which will always be unpalatable in the US. Hopefully some states eventually have the guts to do it.
  - throwaway5959 4y ago
    Oil is a finite resource. Eventually economics will force people to abandon gas (my bet is sooner than the 50 years the industry projects there are reserves for).
  - fulafel 4y ago
    EV benefits to the climate are always congingent on getting rid of fossils. If we don't ramp down fossils by regulation, all this EV business is worse than useless anyway (we'll just end up with the emissions from battery production in addition to burning up all the oil we can pump - maybe sold abroad if domestically there's a lot of renewables available, but still burned).
- peteradio 4y ago
  Hows maintenance cost for hybrids compared to pure ice?
  - giobox 4y ago
    Generally not really any better or worse. The electric bits added in a PHEV is relatively ancient, simple and reliable tech - ~5 to 20kwh battery plus a small electric motor added to the end of the existing transmission in most cases. Electric motors in vehicles generally have little to no maintenance requirements and just last the lifespan of the vehicle - the stator/rotor never "touch" so there isn't anything that "wears" anything like as much as in a combustion engine and no complex lubrication challenges. The battery will wear over time, but again generally lasts most to all of the lifespan of the vehicle. In some cases reliability actually improves, as the extremely reliable electric motor can replace things such as reverse gear and the starter motor, reducing complexity of the ICE system and transmission. The only parts being serviced that you pay for continue to be the gas bits exactly as before.
- comte7092 4y ago
  I live in an apartment. I drive a full EV and the 200+ miles range allows me to get away with charging at public chargers intermittently rather than having to plug in basically every night. If I had a plug in hybrid, it wouldn’t get plugged in.
  - colechristensen 4y ago
    I’ve had a couple of apartments install ev chargers in every parking space in the last few years. That kind of thing is going to get progressively more common.
    - TheRealPomax 4y ago
      I think the "if I had a hybrid, it wouldn't get plugged in" part is what they were calling out: that is now a fossil fuel car even though they could quite comfortably plug it in. Hybrid cars are, effectively, enablers. The not-even temptation to just top it up, in under a minute, at an entirely acceptable cost (given that you could afford a hybrid, you can afford gas) is the best way to prevent people from actually going electric. Plus, from an industry perspective, hybrids are the perfect excuse for manufacturers to just keep spending on ICE improvements rather than EV improvements: as long as the total package seems to get more mileage every year, no one's paying attention to the fact that the EV parts don't get improved nearly as much as the ICE parts do. And because hybrids cut into EV sales, manufacturers have the perfect excuse to keep working on ICE tech because "the majority of people are still buying cars with an ICE or ICE component". Hybrids would be great if people were rational. Instead, people are the exact opposite, and hybrids are the perfect "let's not move to full EV" excuse for consumers and manufacturers alike.
    - throwaway5959 4y ago
      Why do we need chargers in every parking space? Is every space allotted? In our parking structure (five floors) we have about 50 EVs and only four chargers, there’s always at least one spot available. I guess there’s no real harm in it but seems like a waste of resources.
      - 4y ago
- anonu 4y ago
  I'll play the devil's advocate here: its because hybrids are boring. Specifically, they accelerate slowly. We live in a world of instant gratification (tweets, tiktok, etc..) People want the same with their cars. Which is why TSLA was successful. Personally, when I think TSLA I think of a car that dominates the 0 to 60 charts for a fraction of a cost the ICE cars on the list.
  - fshbbdssbbgdd 4y ago
    The idea that hybrids accelerate slowly is probably a leftover stereotype from when the only hybrids for sale were econoboxes like the Prius. The instant torque from an electric motor actually helps with acceleration. These days many of the quickest supercars are hybrids. And there are a bunch of consumer cars where there the hybrid is quicker than the ICE version.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  A Toyota Prius is pretty close to that.
dekhn 4y ago
Yes! I love my plug-in hybrid (Toyota RAV4 Prime). It gets about 40 miles on battery and then switches to gas. I've managed to drive 9000 miles on 3 tanks of gas (with a much larger energy bill, of course!) and I always have the confidence I could go on a long drive without depending on either slow, busy, or rare charging stations. I now even drive more slowly to maximize my EV range.
- illegalsmile 4y ago
  Same for my Chevy Volt. Works great in the city on electric for the vast majority of my driving and for the 10% of long trips filling up ~8gal is quick and effortless at any gas station. Most of my long trips aren't road trips, they're get to the destination trips. The vehicle also has over 100k miles and really has had no major maintenance requirements other than the usual which has been surprising. That said, I really appreciate early adopters of EVs who are helping push the infrastructure.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I wanted a RAV4 Prime. But they are difficult to get, and without a credit they no longer make financial sense. The TCO is lower just buying the hybrid.
pastor_bob 4y ago
The MTA actually went from using a lot of hybrid buses to fully diesel at one point[0], and now they're slow rolling out fully electric by...2040[1]. Just far out enough they can do basically nothing over the next couple years, and still claim they're on track. [0]https://nypost.com/2013/06/30/mta-hasnt-purchased-a-hybrid-bus-in-three-years-and-new-diesel-engines-could-make-a-return/ https://nypost.com/2013/06/30/mta-hasnt-purchased-a-hybrid-b... [1]https://www.timeout.com/newyork/news/200-electric-buses-are-coming-to-nyc-streets-by-2025-081522 https://www.timeout.com/newyork/news/200-electric-buses-are-...
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > now they're slow rolling out fully electric by...2040 The MTA operates 5,800 buses [1]. At 525 kWh per bus [2], that’s 3 GwH of batteries fleetwide. Charging those daily is enough to keep a large power plant busy. [1] https://new.mta.info/project/zero-emission-bus-fleet https://new.mta.info/project/zero-emission-bus-fleet [2] https://chargedevs.com/newswire/new-yorks-mta-orders-60-more-battery-electric-buses-from-new-flyer/ https://chargedevs.com/newswire/new-yorks-mta-orders-60-more...
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
I don't understand it either. People seem to fanatically pursue and defend purity. Gas or electric. Hybrid is too complicated.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  You want to see purity? Look at any thread talking about PHEVs. Owners are like vegans... you know how someone owns a PHEV? They'll tell you.
treis 4y ago
Because they need both an ICE and battery powered engine it's a more complex & expensive solution than picking one or the other. Not only expensive in dollars but car weight, storage room, maintenance, and so on. It's okay as an intermediate step but all electric is much better long term.
- gowings97 4y ago
  "it's a more complex & expensive solution than picking one or the other." Not for NMC batteries, which continue to go up in price (so much for the downward EV battery price trend EV promoters promised would materialize with the economies of scale). And LFP batteries don't have the necessary performance characteristics for high load applications. The great EV brownout of 2023 has arrived.
- legitster 4y ago
  > It's okay as an intermediate step but all electric is much better long term. Sure, but given the long term might be longer than the average consumer holds onto a new car, there's a lot of value in a good intermediate solution. The average person drives less than 30 miles a day. Building a 360 mile EV battery just to handle long-tail events seems very wasteful. Given that Lithium battery production is largely the bottleneck to full electrification, you could use the batteries from 1 Tesla and make 6 plug-in hybrids from them. And then get pretty close to 6x-ing the amount of carbon saved.
- mywittyname 4y ago
  There are cases where hybrids remove complexity because they can be designed to operate either without transmissions, or with substantially more simple transmissions. Hybrids are cheaper than EVs since a good chunk of expensive batteries can be off-set by an ICE. Hybrids are probably the end-game for any forms of transportation that require operation for a long period of time. A dump truck, for example, could have its 12L, 400hp diesel engine replaced with a 1L, 60hp engine that charges the batteries that drive the electric motors. Since the auxiliary engine only needs to be able to provide just enough juice for cruising, it can be made much smaller.
  - 4y ago
danans 4y ago
> At this moment in time, Plug-in hybrids are the superior technology for nearly every application. I don't understand why they get so overlooked by consumers and manufacturers alike. Plugin hybrids cars are expensive, not at the least because they require both a traditional ICE drivetrain and a large battery and electric motor, and specialized power split transmissions to make those work together. Therefore, most plugin hybrids are higher end (just like EVs) and marketed at wealthier people who want to drive electric most of the time but have range anxiety or don't want to deal with DC fast charging. Look for yourself: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15377500/plug-in-hybrid-car-suv-vehicles/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15377500/plug-in-hybr... That said, they can make a lot of sense if you need 1 car that can do everything, both short daily drives and long trips. The sleeper hit here is the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. The new ones have 38miles electric range and seat 7. However, the falling price of batteries and growth of DC fast charging infrastructure means that they will PHEVs will be a bridge technology. Many city buses however are starting to convert to some form of plugin hybrid, although even their https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_bus#List_of_transit_authorities_using_hybrid_electric_buses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_bus#List_of_tr... However, even city buses are moving towards full electrification since the maintenance and fuel costs tend to dominate the total cost of ownership for them, and those are much lower with full electric.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  > specialized power split transmissions The thought occurs to me to make the rear wheels powered by the ICE and the front wheels electric. Then no wacky transmissions. I don't know anything about a "power split" transmission, but isn't that the sort of thing a differential gear set does very well at?
  - kkfx 4y ago
    It's VERY hard to keep a vehicle run straight with non-mechanically-tied wheels, you'll almost never get a "perfect enough" balance ending up in an engine pushing/pulling against the other. That's why for instance we do not have much multi-motors EVs without a mechanical coupling...
mabbo 4y ago
Plugin hybrids have the worst of both options as well as the best. They have to carry with them an entire gas engine, plus large electric motors, plus a huge battery. That's a lot of mass. This makes them inefficient as gas vehicles, and less efficient as EVs. Take a look at the Toyota Prius Prime, considered a great PHEV. It's got almost the same gas milage in combined city/highway driving as my 2012 Honda Civic (around 50 mpg). The Prius has got a slight edge. But that's combined, which presumes 45% highway and 55% city. You don't want to take that car on a road trip because once the battery is dead, you'll be needing to stop to refill the gas tank every 90 minutes. My Civic will drive 600km or more on highways, easily. PHEVs are the best vehicle if you drive less than 60km per day, and mostly have stop-go city driving (so you can recharge on braking).
- unregistereddev 4y ago
  I'm a bit confused by your numbers, and I suspect we may be mixing multiple units of measure (maybe due to different definitions of gallon?). The 2021 Prius Prime is rated at 53mpg highway. Let's assume that is optimistic and it gets 50mpg. Its fuel tank holds 11.4 gallons, but you don't want to run it dry - let's say 10 gallons are usable. That is a 500-mile (~800km) range after the battery is dead. At 75mph, that requires stopping to refill the gas tank every 6 hours and 40 minutes. The most efficient 2012 Honda Civic is the hybrid, which is EPA rated at 44mpg highway. That is very efficient. However, 44mpg -> 53mpg is a 20% increase in distance per gallon of fuel. The Prius Prime is significantly more efficient. Since we're intentionally ignoring electric range in these numbers, I think the efficiency gains are mostly from the 9 years of R&D that passed between these two cars being built. Interestingly, the non-plugin 2021 Prius Eco is also rated at 53mpg highway. I do think it's odd that the extra weight from a larger battery didn't have a bigger impact on fuel economy. It looks like that makes a small difference in town, where the Prius Eco gets 58mpg vs the Prius Prime's 55mpg.
  - Panzer04 4y ago
    Weight is not that important for highway driving especially, where the vast majority of resistance comes from air and not rolling resistance. It’s mostly bad for ICE stop and go, where you have to get the whole car moving again from a dead stop repeatedly.
kkfx 4y ago
Because their small batteries being too much stressed do not last longer and in the end you run on ICE with the extra weight of battery, inverters and powertrain... Another tempted but so far not promising was the hybrid-series EVs (like ships, with electrical engine powered by a generator) so far Nissan have tempted again, but honestly sound to be a failure...
SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
Or just to extend this a bit further, maybe we keep ICE for a few specific applications? I want a full conversion just as much as anyone who lives on this planet does, but I can see some cases being allowed for as our technology catches up to the lingering problems.
- jdc0589 4y ago
  thats what will happen. Think about farmers, people in more rural areas, homesteaders, etc... There is no high capacity supercharger network there and isn't likely to be. ICE machinery is incredibly important to them. A total conversion to electric isn't feasible in a lot of places like that.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Some people will have niche cases for sure, but I've talked to a number of farmers who drive EVs both on the road and on their farm and are really happy with it. They do get electric service too, that's not just something only city dwellers get.
  - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
    I dunno if "farmers as a whole" is acceptable, nor necessary. I was just speaking of NYC garbage trucks.
- legitster 4y ago
  I think this is exactly why carbon sequestration technology is so important. During our lifetime there are certain ICE applications that we really have no good alternatives for. So finding a palatable cost for carbon removal we are collectively willing to pay buys us a lot of options.
twblalock 4y ago
For a commuter car, a plug-in hybrid is great if its all-electric range fits within your commute distance. Otherwise it's just a more expensive hybrid. For a snow plow that needs to run for hours at a time, I suspect that the additional cost of the batteries of a plug-in hybrid isn't worth it over a normal hybrid, or just a diesel-powered engine. We don't need to electrify everything, and even if that will happen in the long run, we don't need to rush to do it now. What percentage of total NYC emissions come from these trucks? Probably a pretty small portion. It's not politically correct for NYC to buy more diesel trucks, but it is probably what they should do.
raxxorraxor 4y ago
Winter is still a problem for EV. My city (non US) tried to change all busses from diesel to electric. Diesel busses had an efficiency of about 98% (2% time spend in maintenance) while EV busses had about 94%. This ultimately resulted in transport companies to go diesel again in recent years. I think putting some public funds here would be very worth the gain. Of course electric busses are vastly more convenient. They are almost silent compared to the heavy noise a diesel bus makes on acceleration. Their routes are predictable, so charging can be accounted for. Although a bus can also mount very large batteries to begin with. But apart from the slight difference in maintenance quota, there also was a problem in winter. When it was cold outside many busses refused to work. They would need to stay within a depot in winter which increases costs again. Still electric busses seem to be an efficient way to curb in-city emissions and noise pollution to a large degree. And I think the problem with temperature can surely be solved somehow. I do think perfect became the enemy of good here. But there are still valid economic reasons for the private companies that provide these vehicles. Ultimately they don't get paid for their vehicles to be more economical and less noisy. I don't think it is worth to replace heavy machinery yet. There are just too few vehicles that the investment doesn't seem too reasonable yet as long as there are that many more efficient things to replace.

Sohcahtoa82 4y ago

I've been saying this for years. I just don't understand it. A car that can drive ~40 miles on pure electric that has an ICE for longer trips would satisfy the needs of everyone. For like 90+% of people, it would mean never using gas for their commute while also eliminating range anxiety. I'm especially surprised about the lack of plug-in hybrids for semi trucks. I'd think having a little extra electronic torque would help considerably when accelerating. It doesn't need to go 0-60 in 20 seconds while carrying 80K lbs like the Tesla Semi claims, but certainly having extra power could be useful in some scenarios. Heck, just having regen braking would be a game changer when going down hills. No noise from a Jake Brake, and no worries about burning up brake pads.

xenadu02 4y ago
This more than doubles the complexity, increases weight, has much lower battery capacity, and still sticks you with the maintenance work required for the ICE. Plus gas is a very volatile mix that degrades; you must run the ICE regularly to ensure the tank gets cycled.
- dekhn 4y ago
  Uh, exactly how long can I go between running the ICE engine before... something(?) happens to my gas and engine?
  - hattmall 4y ago
    It's unlikely to be a one time thing. But recurrently letting gas sit for extended periods of time could cause issues. This mostly only applies to ethanol containing fuels. This is why boats need to use 100% gas. You should do the same for a plugin hybrid if you don't cycle the tank at least every 2-3 weeks. That's all it takes to damage a boat if it sits. Cars will be better but the repeated exposure would certainly take a toll.
    - legitster 4y ago
      BMW had something for their i3 that ran the engine automatically every so often for this very reason. But they also only stuck it with a 2 gallon tank.
      - hangonhn 4y ago
        My friends LOVE their i3 and it was like their gateway drug to EVs. I think if BMW had kept going on that concept, it would have create a true winner. They NEVER needed to refill their backup tank in the 2 or 3 years they leased. I think BMW did something special to make the gas tank keep the gasoline that long. In that span of time, battery mode satisfied all their needs and they loved driving it.
    - dekhn 4y ago
      What does "take a toll" mean? Sorry to be difficult but people tell me a lot of things will damage my car in the long term, but I haven't been able to reproduce any of those problems yet. The only thing that damaged my car was putting too much oil in it, that caused it to fail nearly immediately, and was covered by the warranty so it was free to replace the whole engine.
      - colechristensen 4y ago
        Eh, your car will run a little shitty with the old gas, leaving an engine without running it for extended periods can cause somewhat faster corrosion depending on your environment, and old gas can increase things like various gunk getting deposited around your engine. All in all, a mild shortening of the life of your engine and perhaps triggering some maintenance sooner than otherwise. Realistically, not much. The people saying “bad for you” aren’t wrong but they also fail to mention the effect size. It’s not particularly relevant unless you want to own the same car for a few hundred thousand miles and absolutely minimize maintenance. (Small aircraft for example, you want to care a lot about these things because they’re very expensive, when the engine fails you’ll be thousands of feet above the ground, and a well maintained plane can last decades. Your daily driver probably doesn’t have any of these issues) There are various preventative things you can do to minimize the effects anyway. It’s one of those internet things where yeah they’re not wrong exactly but they need to relax. Having too much beer and cheeseburgers last night long term probably wasn’t the best decision, but you know what I’ll probably be fine. Leaking gas in a car for a long time is like eating too much fast food. Ok yeah not the greatest but are you the type of person who cares enough to never eat McDonald’s? Make your decisions according to your disposition and don’t take people telling you you’re wrong too seriously.
- legitster 4y ago
  If you know ahead of time that the engine is going to run infrequently, there are lots of ways to mitigate this. The ICE is tantamount to a backup generator, and there are very reliable backup generators. > This more than doubles the complexity, increases weight I mean, US consumers already put up with this when it came to automatic transmissions. But the cost/maintenance problems were a fair trade-off for convenience. And in the case of plug-in hybrids, they are VERY convenient. You almost never need to get gas, but you can still go on a road trip without any pre-planning.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    > US consumers already put up with this when it came to automatic transmissions. Europeans, too. Automatics crossed over 50% in the last couple years.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  That doesn’t make sense, a lithium battery is heavier than an engine in the differentials we are talking about. The volt pretty much already is a case study for the other points. It’s not really that much work. The later point can be resolved with software that uses the gas on occasion.
- enragedcacti 4y ago
  > This more than doubles the complexity hybrid systems are complex but really not much more complex than traditional ICE when you consider that they no longer need starters or alternators, have transmissions with no shifting components, and can use electric A/C compressors to avoid accessory belts entirely. They also have much longer maintenance intervals because the engine is only running ~2/3rds of the time. Electric cars are of course simpler but have cost and range issues that are prohibitive for some use cases, not to mention will usually weigh much more than even an equivalent plugin hybrid. Suffice to say there is a reason that the best taxi vehicle has been the Prius for more than a decade. efficient and rock solid reliable despite increased complexity. Most importantly though, you can make 10 plugin hybrids with the battery from one BEV. As long as raw materials for batteries are a bottleneck then we should be seriously considering PHEVs as a stopgap if as we can make sure they are getting charged.
- twobitshifter 4y ago
  It doesn't have to double complexity. Look at the BMW i3 Rex - it used a basic range-extending generator and was ahead of its time. The weight savings of the Rex vs. a larger battery are significant. Most EVs carry around a battery that they'll only use 10% of on a typical day.
- toast0 4y ago
  A Toyota Synergy style hybrid has a more mechanically simple transmission than an ICE plus a traditional transmission. I haven't seen numbers, but I'd be surprised if ICE plus a fuel system weighs more than 300 miles worth of batteries, but you get 600 miles of range with the ICE. You could easily get more, but PHEVs seem to be stuck with a 12 gallon tank. My PHEV has a two year maintenance cycle, and the ICE portion is changing the oil, mostly. Yes, at some point you'll need to do a timing chain/belt, and there's incidentals; you'll never need to replace emissions equipment on a BEV, and most of the unscheduled maintenance on my ICE equipped cars has been related to emissions: EGR valves, o2 sensors, EVAP canisters, etc. The engine control system takes care of running the ICE regularly, it's not something you have to worry about. I'd expect it to push you to fill up the tank about twice a year if you're mostly driving electric. I drive my PHEV mostly gas, and not that often anyway, so I just fill up every 500 miles or so.
- jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
  As to your last point, designers of range extenders are obviously aware of this and handle it automatically. It'll chose to kick on occasionally even if the batter is nearly full.
pastor_bob 4y ago
Most people would never plug it in. This would only be ideal if you could make using gas significantly more cost inefficient (i.e. astronomically higher gas prices), which will always be unpalatable in the US. Hopefully some states eventually have the guts to do it.
- throwaway5959 4y ago
  Oil is a finite resource. Eventually economics will force people to abandon gas (my bet is sooner than the 50 years the industry projects there are reserves for).
- fulafel 4y ago
  EV benefits to the climate are always congingent on getting rid of fossils. If we don't ramp down fossils by regulation, all this EV business is worse than useless anyway (we'll just end up with the emissions from battery production in addition to burning up all the oil we can pump - maybe sold abroad if domestically there's a lot of renewables available, but still burned).
peteradio 4y ago
Hows maintenance cost for hybrids compared to pure ice?
- giobox 4y ago
  Generally not really any better or worse. The electric bits added in a PHEV is relatively ancient, simple and reliable tech - ~5 to 20kwh battery plus a small electric motor added to the end of the existing transmission in most cases. Electric motors in vehicles generally have little to no maintenance requirements and just last the lifespan of the vehicle - the stator/rotor never "touch" so there isn't anything that "wears" anything like as much as in a combustion engine and no complex lubrication challenges. The battery will wear over time, but again generally lasts most to all of the lifespan of the vehicle. In some cases reliability actually improves, as the extremely reliable electric motor can replace things such as reverse gear and the starter motor, reducing complexity of the ICE system and transmission. The only parts being serviced that you pay for continue to be the gas bits exactly as before.
comte7092 4y ago
I live in an apartment. I drive a full EV and the 200+ miles range allows me to get away with charging at public chargers intermittently rather than having to plug in basically every night. If I had a plug in hybrid, it wouldn’t get plugged in.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  I’ve had a couple of apartments install ev chargers in every parking space in the last few years. That kind of thing is going to get progressively more common.
  - TheRealPomax 4y ago
    I think the "if I had a hybrid, it wouldn't get plugged in" part is what they were calling out: that is now a fossil fuel car even though they could quite comfortably plug it in. Hybrid cars are, effectively, enablers. The not-even temptation to just top it up, in under a minute, at an entirely acceptable cost (given that you could afford a hybrid, you can afford gas) is the best way to prevent people from actually going electric. Plus, from an industry perspective, hybrids are the perfect excuse for manufacturers to just keep spending on ICE improvements rather than EV improvements: as long as the total package seems to get more mileage every year, no one's paying attention to the fact that the EV parts don't get improved nearly as much as the ICE parts do. And because hybrids cut into EV sales, manufacturers have the perfect excuse to keep working on ICE tech because "the majority of people are still buying cars with an ICE or ICE component". Hybrids would be great if people were rational. Instead, people are the exact opposite, and hybrids are the perfect "let's not move to full EV" excuse for consumers and manufacturers alike.
  - throwaway5959 4y ago
    Why do we need chargers in every parking space? Is every space allotted? In our parking structure (five floors) we have about 50 EVs and only four chargers, there’s always at least one spot available. I guess there’s no real harm in it but seems like a waste of resources.
    - 4y ago
anonu 4y ago
I'll play the devil's advocate here: its because hybrids are boring. Specifically, they accelerate slowly. We live in a world of instant gratification (tweets, tiktok, etc..) People want the same with their cars. Which is why TSLA was successful. Personally, when I think TSLA I think of a car that dominates the 0 to 60 charts for a fraction of a cost the ICE cars on the list.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 4y ago
  The idea that hybrids accelerate slowly is probably a leftover stereotype from when the only hybrids for sale were econoboxes like the Prius. The instant torque from an electric motor actually helps with acceleration. These days many of the quickest supercars are hybrids. And there are a bunch of consumer cars where there the hybrid is quicker than the ICE version.
jacquesm 4y ago
A Toyota Prius is pretty close to that.

dekhn 4y ago

Yes! I love my plug-in hybrid (Toyota RAV4 Prime). It gets about 40 miles on battery and then switches to gas. I've managed to drive 9000 miles on 3 tanks of gas (with a much larger energy bill, of course!) and I always have the confidence I could go on a long drive without depending on either slow, busy, or rare charging stations. I now even drive more slowly to maximize my EV range.

illegalsmile 4y ago
Same for my Chevy Volt. Works great in the city on electric for the vast majority of my driving and for the 10% of long trips filling up ~8gal is quick and effortless at any gas station. Most of my long trips aren't road trips, they're get to the destination trips. The vehicle also has over 100k miles and really has had no major maintenance requirements other than the usual which has been surprising. That said, I really appreciate early adopters of EVs who are helping push the infrastructure.
rootusrootus 4y ago
I wanted a RAV4 Prime. But they are difficult to get, and without a credit they no longer make financial sense. The TCO is lower just buying the hybrid.

pastor_bob 4y ago

The MTA actually went from using a lot of hybrid buses to fully diesel at one point[0], and now they're slow rolling out fully electric by...2040[1]. Just far out enough they can do basically nothing over the next couple years, and still claim they're on track. [0]https://nypost.com/2013/06/30/mta-hasnt-purchased-a-hybrid-bus-in-three-years-and-new-diesel-engines-could-make-a-return/ https://nypost.com/2013/06/30/mta-hasnt-purchased-a-hybrid-b... [1]https://www.timeout.com/newyork/news/200-electric-buses-are-coming-to-nyc-streets-by-2025-081522 https://www.timeout.com/newyork/news/200-electric-buses-are-...

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> now they're slow rolling out fully electric by...2040 The MTA operates 5,800 buses [1]. At 525 kWh per bus [2], that’s 3 GwH of batteries fleetwide. Charging those daily is enough to keep a large power plant busy. [1] https://new.mta.info/project/zero-emission-bus-fleet https://new.mta.info/project/zero-emission-bus-fleet [2] https://chargedevs.com/newswire/new-yorks-mta-orders-60-more-battery-electric-buses-from-new-flyer/ https://chargedevs.com/newswire/new-yorks-mta-orders-60-more...

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

I don't understand it either. People seem to fanatically pursue and defend purity. Gas or electric. Hybrid is too complicated.

rootusrootus 4y ago
You want to see purity? Look at any thread talking about PHEVs. Owners are like vegans... you know how someone owns a PHEV? They'll tell you.

treis 4y ago

Because they need both an ICE and battery powered engine it's a more complex & expensive solution than picking one or the other. Not only expensive in dollars but car weight, storage room, maintenance, and so on. It's okay as an intermediate step but all electric is much better long term.

gowings97 4y ago
"it's a more complex & expensive solution than picking one or the other." Not for NMC batteries, which continue to go up in price (so much for the downward EV battery price trend EV promoters promised would materialize with the economies of scale). And LFP batteries don't have the necessary performance characteristics for high load applications. The great EV brownout of 2023 has arrived.
legitster 4y ago
> It's okay as an intermediate step but all electric is much better long term. Sure, but given the long term might be longer than the average consumer holds onto a new car, there's a lot of value in a good intermediate solution. The average person drives less than 30 miles a day. Building a 360 mile EV battery just to handle long-tail events seems very wasteful. Given that Lithium battery production is largely the bottleneck to full electrification, you could use the batteries from 1 Tesla and make 6 plug-in hybrids from them. And then get pretty close to 6x-ing the amount of carbon saved.
mywittyname 4y ago
There are cases where hybrids remove complexity because they can be designed to operate either without transmissions, or with substantially more simple transmissions. Hybrids are cheaper than EVs since a good chunk of expensive batteries can be off-set by an ICE. Hybrids are probably the end-game for any forms of transportation that require operation for a long period of time. A dump truck, for example, could have its 12L, 400hp diesel engine replaced with a 1L, 60hp engine that charges the batteries that drive the electric motors. Since the auxiliary engine only needs to be able to provide just enough juice for cruising, it can be made much smaller.
- 4y ago

danans 4y ago

> At this moment in time, Plug-in hybrids are the superior technology for nearly every application. I don't understand why they get so overlooked by consumers and manufacturers alike. Plugin hybrids cars are expensive, not at the least because they require both a traditional ICE drivetrain and a large battery and electric motor, and specialized power split transmissions to make those work together. Therefore, most plugin hybrids are higher end (just like EVs) and marketed at wealthier people who want to drive electric most of the time but have range anxiety or don't want to deal with DC fast charging. Look for yourself: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15377500/plug-in-hybrid-car-suv-vehicles/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15377500/plug-in-hybr... That said, they can make a lot of sense if you need 1 car that can do everything, both short daily drives and long trips. The sleeper hit here is the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. The new ones have 38miles electric range and seat 7. However, the falling price of batteries and growth of DC fast charging infrastructure means that they will PHEVs will be a bridge technology. Many city buses however are starting to convert to some form of plugin hybrid, although even their https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_bus#List_of_transit_authorities_using_hybrid_electric_buses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_bus#List_of_tr... However, even city buses are moving towards full electrification since the maintenance and fuel costs tend to dominate the total cost of ownership for them, and those are much lower with full electric.

WalterBright 4y ago
> specialized power split transmissions The thought occurs to me to make the rear wheels powered by the ICE and the front wheels electric. Then no wacky transmissions. I don't know anything about a "power split" transmission, but isn't that the sort of thing a differential gear set does very well at?
- kkfx 4y ago
  It's VERY hard to keep a vehicle run straight with non-mechanically-tied wheels, you'll almost never get a "perfect enough" balance ending up in an engine pushing/pulling against the other. That's why for instance we do not have much multi-motors EVs without a mechanical coupling...

mabbo 4y ago

Plugin hybrids have the worst of both options as well as the best. They have to carry with them an entire gas engine, plus large electric motors, plus a huge battery. That's a lot of mass. This makes them inefficient as gas vehicles, and less efficient as EVs. Take a look at the Toyota Prius Prime, considered a great PHEV. It's got almost the same gas milage in combined city/highway driving as my 2012 Honda Civic (around 50 mpg). The Prius has got a slight edge. But that's combined, which presumes 45% highway and 55% city. You don't want to take that car on a road trip because once the battery is dead, you'll be needing to stop to refill the gas tank every 90 minutes. My Civic will drive 600km or more on highways, easily. PHEVs are the best vehicle if you drive less than 60km per day, and mostly have stop-go city driving (so you can recharge on braking).

unregistereddev 4y ago
I'm a bit confused by your numbers, and I suspect we may be mixing multiple units of measure (maybe due to different definitions of gallon?). The 2021 Prius Prime is rated at 53mpg highway. Let's assume that is optimistic and it gets 50mpg. Its fuel tank holds 11.4 gallons, but you don't want to run it dry - let's say 10 gallons are usable. That is a 500-mile (~800km) range after the battery is dead. At 75mph, that requires stopping to refill the gas tank every 6 hours and 40 minutes. The most efficient 2012 Honda Civic is the hybrid, which is EPA rated at 44mpg highway. That is very efficient. However, 44mpg -> 53mpg is a 20% increase in distance per gallon of fuel. The Prius Prime is significantly more efficient. Since we're intentionally ignoring electric range in these numbers, I think the efficiency gains are mostly from the 9 years of R&D that passed between these two cars being built. Interestingly, the non-plugin 2021 Prius Eco is also rated at 53mpg highway. I do think it's odd that the extra weight from a larger battery didn't have a bigger impact on fuel economy. It looks like that makes a small difference in town, where the Prius Eco gets 58mpg vs the Prius Prime's 55mpg.
- Panzer04 4y ago
  Weight is not that important for highway driving especially, where the vast majority of resistance comes from air and not rolling resistance. It’s mostly bad for ICE stop and go, where you have to get the whole car moving again from a dead stop repeatedly.

kkfx 4y ago

Because their small batteries being too much stressed do not last longer and in the end you run on ICE with the extra weight of battery, inverters and powertrain... Another tempted but so far not promising was the hybrid-series EVs (like ships, with electrical engine powered by a generator) so far Nissan have tempted again, but honestly sound to be a failure...

SpeedilyDamage 4y ago

Or just to extend this a bit further, maybe we keep ICE for a few specific applications? I want a full conversion just as much as anyone who lives on this planet does, but I can see some cases being allowed for as our technology catches up to the lingering problems.

jdc0589 4y ago
thats what will happen. Think about farmers, people in more rural areas, homesteaders, etc... There is no high capacity supercharger network there and isn't likely to be. ICE machinery is incredibly important to them. A total conversion to electric isn't feasible in a lot of places like that.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Some people will have niche cases for sure, but I've talked to a number of farmers who drive EVs both on the road and on their farm and are really happy with it. They do get electric service too, that's not just something only city dwellers get.
- SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
  I dunno if "farmers as a whole" is acceptable, nor necessary. I was just speaking of NYC garbage trucks.
legitster 4y ago
I think this is exactly why carbon sequestration technology is so important. During our lifetime there are certain ICE applications that we really have no good alternatives for. So finding a palatable cost for carbon removal we are collectively willing to pay buys us a lot of options.

twblalock 4y ago

For a commuter car, a plug-in hybrid is great if its all-electric range fits within your commute distance. Otherwise it's just a more expensive hybrid. For a snow plow that needs to run for hours at a time, I suspect that the additional cost of the batteries of a plug-in hybrid isn't worth it over a normal hybrid, or just a diesel-powered engine. We don't need to electrify everything, and even if that will happen in the long run, we don't need to rush to do it now. What percentage of total NYC emissions come from these trucks? Probably a pretty small portion. It's not politically correct for NYC to buy more diesel trucks, but it is probably what they should do.

raxxorraxor 4y ago

Winter is still a problem for EV. My city (non US) tried to change all busses from diesel to electric. Diesel busses had an efficiency of about 98% (2% time spend in maintenance) while EV busses had about 94%. This ultimately resulted in transport companies to go diesel again in recent years. I think putting some public funds here would be very worth the gain. Of course electric busses are vastly more convenient. They are almost silent compared to the heavy noise a diesel bus makes on acceleration. Their routes are predictable, so charging can be accounted for. Although a bus can also mount very large batteries to begin with. But apart from the slight difference in maintenance quota, there also was a problem in winter. When it was cold outside many busses refused to work. They would need to stay within a depot in winter which increases costs again. Still electric busses seem to be an efficient way to curb in-city emissions and noise pollution to a large degree. And I think the problem with temperature can surely be solved somehow. I do think perfect became the enemy of good here. But there are still valid economic reasons for the private companies that provide these vehicles. Ultimately they don't get paid for their vehicles to be more economical and less noisy. I don't think it is worth to replace heavy machinery yet. There are just too few vehicles that the investment doesn't seem too reasonable yet as long as there are that many more efficient things to replace.