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Why would you think that's fair? We don't choose our talents nor our passions. You should get a decent share of however much value you create. How much you like

Why would you think that's fair? We don't choose our talents nor our passions. You should get a decent share of however much value you create. How much you like your job doesn't come into it because it's random.

nonethewiser 4y ago
Because not only is it consensual, but developers are actively sacrificing things to be in the game industry. When you have alternatives you aren't being exploited.
- triceratops 4y ago
  Shrug I would hate to work in the game industry. I've made games as hobby projects. In all honesty, they're the most boring kind of programming I've done. Game testing sounds even worse. My current work is pretty boring to other people, but I like it. Would it be right for someone in my role who hates the work to make more money?
- ctvo 4y ago
  > When you have alternatives you aren't being exploited. That's a narrow definition. Perhaps a better definition is when the other party knows you don't have leverage and takes advantage of it, you're being exploited. Paying you little, knowing you'd work for a low wage because this is your passion? Exploitation. Horrible working conditions, wages, and abuse knowing you're an illegal immigrant with no recourse? Exploitation. Knowing you need the job for visa purposes and asking you to come in for a 2am code review because a new CEO wants to feel like an engineer? Exploitation.
  - somedude895 4y ago
    One of these examples is so unlike the other two that it's outrageous.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    > Horrible working conditions, wages, and abuse knowing you're an illegal immigrant with no recourse? Exploitation. Yes. This scenario includes factors that are depriving the worker of agency, chiefly the lack of recourse due to their illegal immigrant status. > Paying you little, knowing you'd work for a low wage because this is your passion? Exploitation. No. If the worker is passionate about their job and is willing to tolerate low wages and long hours that's their decision. Agency is not being deprived. The worker should rethink whether working in their dream field is a good decision, and change jobs. If enough people do it, then the company will not be able to fill positions and will have to change labor practices or close shop. But, chances are, there's plenty of people willing to fill this role and the company is simply following the labor market. > Knowing you need the job for visa purposes and asking you to come in for a 2am code review because a new CEO wants to feel like an engineer? Exploitation. Maybe. Was this part of the job description? Some companies are upfront about expectations around crunch time or oncall responsibility. Others are not. Are there factors limiting a worker's agency? I'd say it'd be exploitative to change the work responsibilities on someone who has limited agency to change jobs. An H1B worker whose residency is tied to employment, as you suggest, I would consider exploitative. Most video game development falls in the middle category. The whole industry has a widespread reputation for demanding crunch time - I don't think one would reasonably say they were deceived if asked to crunch near release. They also have skills that are in demand with plenty of other fields. Heck, the company I work in now acquired a video game studio to work on a 3D Geodesy UI, and everyone's salary basically doubled and they were able to work roughly 9-5.
- cmiles74 4y ago
  Industry should pay more for people that motivated to do the work. That this level of motivation would be used against employees strikes me as more of an indicator that there is a problem with the industry, perhaps collusion among the big players to keep wages low. That kind of thing (collusion by big players to keep wages low) strikes me as exploitative.
rattlesnakedave 4y ago
> We don't choose our talents nor our passions You choose your job, though. I'm not overly passionate about what I do, but do it for the stress:compensation ratio.
- triceratops 4y ago
  That's exactly my point. There are people who do the same job as you and love it. They may not even feel stress. Should they be paid less than you?
  - mbesto 4y ago
    Gaming software engineers, relative to a FAANG engineer for example, are willing to work for less money, work in worse conditions due to a tradeoff for working in a field they are fanatically passionate about. It doesn't matter whether they should or should not be, it just is. That's what those engineers are willing to do. Gaming companies exploit this for profit. If you were a for-profit organization you would do the same - the market is telling you to do it. Whether that is evil or not is up for you to decide. Same thing happens in fashion, media and entertainment.
    - pixl97 4y ago
      >Same thing happens in fashion, media and entertainment. And many of those industries unionized to prevent the systematic abuse! If there was a headline "Abuser abused many girlfriends in a row" you'd excuse their behavior saying there are plenty of other guys out there they could go with instead.
      - mbesto 4y ago
        > you'd excuse their behavior saying there are plenty of other guys out there they could go with instead. Where was I excusing it? I was simply laying out the market reality. If you want to say certain classes of professions "deserve" less or more money, then shouldn't we expand this discussion to all professions (teachers, doctors, lawyers, etc.)? No one is really saying they deserve less, but rather that this is the market reality. If gaming devs want to unionize then that's their prerogative.

nonethewiser 4y ago

Because not only is it consensual, but developers are actively sacrificing things to be in the game industry. When you have alternatives you aren't being exploited.

triceratops 4y ago
Shrug I would hate to work in the game industry. I've made games as hobby projects. In all honesty, they're the most boring kind of programming I've done. Game testing sounds even worse. My current work is pretty boring to other people, but I like it. Would it be right for someone in my role who hates the work to make more money?
ctvo 4y ago
> When you have alternatives you aren't being exploited. That's a narrow definition. Perhaps a better definition is when the other party knows you don't have leverage and takes advantage of it, you're being exploited. Paying you little, knowing you'd work for a low wage because this is your passion? Exploitation. Horrible working conditions, wages, and abuse knowing you're an illegal immigrant with no recourse? Exploitation. Knowing you need the job for visa purposes and asking you to come in for a 2am code review because a new CEO wants to feel like an engineer? Exploitation.
- somedude895 4y ago
  One of these examples is so unlike the other two that it's outrageous.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  > Horrible working conditions, wages, and abuse knowing you're an illegal immigrant with no recourse? Exploitation. Yes. This scenario includes factors that are depriving the worker of agency, chiefly the lack of recourse due to their illegal immigrant status. > Paying you little, knowing you'd work for a low wage because this is your passion? Exploitation. No. If the worker is passionate about their job and is willing to tolerate low wages and long hours that's their decision. Agency is not being deprived. The worker should rethink whether working in their dream field is a good decision, and change jobs. If enough people do it, then the company will not be able to fill positions and will have to change labor practices or close shop. But, chances are, there's plenty of people willing to fill this role and the company is simply following the labor market. > Knowing you need the job for visa purposes and asking you to come in for a 2am code review because a new CEO wants to feel like an engineer? Exploitation. Maybe. Was this part of the job description? Some companies are upfront about expectations around crunch time or oncall responsibility. Others are not. Are there factors limiting a worker's agency? I'd say it'd be exploitative to change the work responsibilities on someone who has limited agency to change jobs. An H1B worker whose residency is tied to employment, as you suggest, I would consider exploitative. Most video game development falls in the middle category. The whole industry has a widespread reputation for demanding crunch time - I don't think one would reasonably say they were deceived if asked to crunch near release. They also have skills that are in demand with plenty of other fields. Heck, the company I work in now acquired a video game studio to work on a 3D Geodesy UI, and everyone's salary basically doubled and they were able to work roughly 9-5.
cmiles74 4y ago
Industry should pay more for people that motivated to do the work. That this level of motivation would be used against employees strikes me as more of an indicator that there is a problem with the industry, perhaps collusion among the big players to keep wages low. That kind of thing (collusion by big players to keep wages low) strikes me as exploitative.

rattlesnakedave 4y ago

> We don't choose our talents nor our passions You choose your job, though. I'm not overly passionate about what I do, but do it for the stress:compensation ratio.

triceratops 4y ago
That's exactly my point. There are people who do the same job as you and love it. They may not even feel stress. Should they be paid less than you?
- mbesto 4y ago
  Gaming software engineers, relative to a FAANG engineer for example, are willing to work for less money, work in worse conditions due to a tradeoff for working in a field they are fanatically passionate about. It doesn't matter whether they should or should not be, it just is. That's what those engineers are willing to do. Gaming companies exploit this for profit. If you were a for-profit organization you would do the same - the market is telling you to do it. Whether that is evil or not is up for you to decide. Same thing happens in fashion, media and entertainment.
  - pixl97 4y ago
    >Same thing happens in fashion, media and entertainment. And many of those industries unionized to prevent the systematic abuse! If there was a headline "Abuser abused many girlfriends in a row" you'd excuse their behavior saying there are plenty of other guys out there they could go with instead.
    - mbesto 4y ago
      > you'd excuse their behavior saying there are plenty of other guys out there they could go with instead. Where was I excusing it? I was simply laying out the market reality. If you want to say certain classes of professions "deserve" less or more money, then shouldn't we expand this discussion to all professions (teachers, doctors, lawyers, etc.)? No one is really saying they deserve less, but rather that this is the market reality. If gaming devs want to unionize then that's their prerogative.