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> Looking to European models would be great. Europeans on average earn half of Americans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_b

> Looking to European models would be great. Europeans on average earn half of Americans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_median_wage_and_mean_wage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_terr... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_b... Software engineers make 4x or more their European counterparts If unions were effective I’d expect at least somewhat comparable wages… but that’s not the case. Is it time off it optimized for? I mean that might be fine, but that also means as a union worker you can’t work more and make more. You’re stuck with what the union negotiated. American unions definitely have their issues. That’s mostly where I’m coming from. But even European ones, from the data (I’ve never experienced one), doesn’t seem effective.

dmitriid 4y ago
> If unions were effective I’d expect at least somewhat comparable wages… but that’s not the case. Because wage is all you care for. How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? And not just for software engineers, but for everyone? > that also means as a union worker you can’t work more and make more. You’re stuck with what the union negotiated. That also means that I cannot be forced to work overtime with no overtime pay. > But even European ones, from the data (I’ve never experienced one), doesn’t seem effective. If you only limit your data to only wages, then sure, that data will support whatever narrative you want.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >>Because wage is all you care for. yes.. >>How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? I have no children, I will never have children, and I rarely get sick, and I hate to travel so none of that matters to me. I am forced by my employer to take the vacation I do get, and my "vacation" is me sitting around my house doing chores or gaming which I do with out vacation time as well That is the problem with Unions, they often fight for things I do not care about or need. Majoritarianism is always bad for the smallest minority... the individual >>That also means that I cannot be forced to work overtime with no overtime pay. Has a highly compensated employee that knows their value to the organizations I work for I have never been forced for work overtime with no pay.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Thank goodness you only need a majority of votes to unionize.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      History shows the result of that is often the highly productive staff exits for greener opportunities where they are not penalized for doing more than the minimum not to get fired, and over all the entire operation suffers leading to outsourcing or closing of facilities.
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        We wish them well! Are those greener pastures the vast majority of startups that fail? Or enormous agile, nimble enterprises I’ve heard so much about (he said with a hint of sarcasm)? Lying to others is one thing, but don’t lie to yourself. A vocal minority is best served by the status quo, and they’ll do fine as consultants. Unions to protect the majority (and the evidence very clearly demonstrates these workers need protection from management and capital), with opportunity for those who would rather not be protected. The situation is not binary; it is a spectrum.
        phpisthebest 4y ago
        Neither, I normally work for privately held companies with between 200-1000 employees and revenues between 500million and 1 billion per year That seems to be the sweet spot to not get abused, either by management nor unions. Startups suck, Huge enterprises suck
        dmitriid 4y ago
        > That seems to be the sweet spot to not get abused, either by management nor unions. Startups suck, Huge enterprises suck In Europe I've worked for startups, I've worked for corporations. Everywhere I had the same situation: sick pay, vacations etc. It's amazing that you assume that "getting abused" is the norm and you have to find yourself in some sweet spot to escape that.
camgunz 4y ago
Incomes are generally lower, but EU residents generally have a higher standard of living than US residents according to Human Development Indexes. Life expectancy is also better, infant and maternal mortality are lower, test scores are higher, etc. This is because of the prevalence of socialism, which came about because labor broadly won in Europe. I think Europe's example makes the benefits of unions clear.
- jandrewrogers 4y ago
  The EU has a higher quality of life. The US has a higher standard of living. Quality of life and standard of living are only loosely correlated.
  - camgunz 4y ago
    The EU has both a higher quality of life and standard of living. Here's Investopedia's list of stuff [0] you'd measure for standard of living (FWIW it also mentions HDI as a good measure of standard of living, which the EU generally beats the US at, especially IHDI): - Life expectancy - Inflation rate - Number of paid vacation days - Class disparity - Poverty rate - Quality and affordability of housing - Hours of work required to purchase necessities - GDP - Affordable access to quality healthcare - Quality and availability of education - Incidence of disease - Infrastructure - National economic growth - Economic and political stability - Political and religious freedom - Environmental quality - Climate - Safety Generally other than the GDP/economic growth points, the EU beats the US. [0]: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/financial-theory/08/standard-of-living-quality-of-life.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/financial-theory/08/st...
- rayiner 4y ago
  The difference in HDI between the US (0.921) and say Denmark (0.948) can be entirely explained by the fact that a large portion of the US population is a formerly enslaved minority, and an even larger portion is recent immigrants from the developing world: https://measureofamerica.org/10yearsandcounting https://measureofamerica.org/10yearsandcounting. That has nothing to do with socialism, but historical and geographic factors unusual to the US.
modo_mario 4y ago
I don't think that's necessarily related to the prevalence of unions though and where it might be related it is far from the only factor as there are many other at play there from unrelated legislations and governance styles all the way to reserve currencies. Even just the fact that Europe was/is a fractured market preventing the rice of something akin to silicon valley.

dmitriid 4y ago

> If unions were effective I’d expect at least somewhat comparable wages… but that’s not the case. Because wage is all you care for. How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? And not just for software engineers, but for everyone? > that also means as a union worker you can’t work more and make more. You’re stuck with what the union negotiated. That also means that I cannot be forced to work overtime with no overtime pay. > But even European ones, from the data (I’ve never experienced one), doesn’t seem effective. If you only limit your data to only wages, then sure, that data will support whatever narrative you want.

phpisthebest 4y ago
>>Because wage is all you care for. yes.. >>How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? I have no children, I will never have children, and I rarely get sick, and I hate to travel so none of that matters to me. I am forced by my employer to take the vacation I do get, and my "vacation" is me sitting around my house doing chores or gaming which I do with out vacation time as well That is the problem with Unions, they often fight for things I do not care about or need. Majoritarianism is always bad for the smallest minority... the individual >>That also means that I cannot be forced to work overtime with no overtime pay. Has a highly compensated employee that knows their value to the organizations I work for I have never been forced for work overtime with no pay.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Thank goodness you only need a majority of votes to unionize.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    History shows the result of that is often the highly productive staff exits for greener opportunities where they are not penalized for doing more than the minimum not to get fired, and over all the entire operation suffers leading to outsourcing or closing of facilities.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      We wish them well! Are those greener pastures the vast majority of startups that fail? Or enormous agile, nimble enterprises I’ve heard so much about (he said with a hint of sarcasm)? Lying to others is one thing, but don’t lie to yourself. A vocal minority is best served by the status quo, and they’ll do fine as consultants. Unions to protect the majority (and the evidence very clearly demonstrates these workers need protection from management and capital), with opportunity for those who would rather not be protected. The situation is not binary; it is a spectrum.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        Neither, I normally work for privately held companies with between 200-1000 employees and revenues between 500million and 1 billion per year That seems to be the sweet spot to not get abused, either by management nor unions. Startups suck, Huge enterprises suck
        dmitriid 4y ago
        > That seems to be the sweet spot to not get abused, either by management nor unions. Startups suck, Huge enterprises suck In Europe I've worked for startups, I've worked for corporations. Everywhere I had the same situation: sick pay, vacations etc. It's amazing that you assume that "getting abused" is the norm and you have to find yourself in some sweet spot to escape that.

camgunz 4y ago

Incomes are generally lower, but EU residents generally have a higher standard of living than US residents according to Human Development Indexes. Life expectancy is also better, infant and maternal mortality are lower, test scores are higher, etc. This is because of the prevalence of socialism, which came about because labor broadly won in Europe. I think Europe's example makes the benefits of unions clear.

jandrewrogers 4y ago
The EU has a higher quality of life. The US has a higher standard of living. Quality of life and standard of living are only loosely correlated.
- camgunz 4y ago
  The EU has both a higher quality of life and standard of living. Here's Investopedia's list of stuff [0] you'd measure for standard of living (FWIW it also mentions HDI as a good measure of standard of living, which the EU generally beats the US at, especially IHDI): - Life expectancy - Inflation rate - Number of paid vacation days - Class disparity - Poverty rate - Quality and affordability of housing - Hours of work required to purchase necessities - GDP - Affordable access to quality healthcare - Quality and availability of education - Incidence of disease - Infrastructure - National economic growth - Economic and political stability - Political and religious freedom - Environmental quality - Climate - Safety Generally other than the GDP/economic growth points, the EU beats the US. [0]: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/financial-theory/08/standard-of-living-quality-of-life.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/financial-theory/08/st...
rayiner 4y ago
The difference in HDI between the US (0.921) and say Denmark (0.948) can be entirely explained by the fact that a large portion of the US population is a formerly enslaved minority, and an even larger portion is recent immigrants from the developing world: https://measureofamerica.org/10yearsandcounting https://measureofamerica.org/10yearsandcounting. That has nothing to do with socialism, but historical and geographic factors unusual to the US.

modo_mario 4y ago

I don't think that's necessarily related to the prevalence of unions though and where it might be related it is far from the only factor as there are many other at play there from unrelated legislations and governance styles all the way to reserve currencies. Even just the fact that Europe was/is a fractured market preventing the rice of something akin to silicon valley.