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I find it weird that nobody in the US seems to look beyond their country or similar systems for different models regarding this. Here in Belgium we have some i

I find it weird that nobody in the US seems to look beyond their country or similar systems for different models regarding this. Here in Belgium we have some industry specific unions like for rail (idk how the government in the US forces em to do anything). But most unions are cross industry. They aren't really noticed when working in the context of a specific company too often unless mediation is needed when big lay-offs and shutdowns are happening at big companies or there's safety stuff involved or other such work condition things. They don't really dabble seniority, performance metrics and wages tied to that as far as i'm aware. Whilst they're generally not involved in keeping individuals employed at particular companies they do offer legal services if your company illegally fucks you over or for checking employment contracts or the like, push for huge once in a blue moon strikes if the government considers touching our wage indexation too much. etc. They are also mostly politically aligned so we have left, liberal, Christian democrat, Flemish nationalist, independent, etc unions essentially competing against each other. Their membership is really cheap probably as a consequence of that.

rayiner 4y ago
> I find it weird that nobody in the US seems to look beyond their country or similar systems for different models regarding this. Looking to European models would be great. But the current American union structure is written into federal statute, and there is approximately zero chance of the statute ever being amended.
- lettergram 4y ago
  > Looking to European models would be great. Europeans on average earn half of Americans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_median_wage_and_mean_wage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_terr... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_b... Software engineers make 4x or more their European counterparts If unions were effective I’d expect at least somewhat comparable wages… but that’s not the case. Is it time off it optimized for? I mean that might be fine, but that also means as a union worker you can’t work more and make more. You’re stuck with what the union negotiated. American unions definitely have their issues. That’s mostly where I’m coming from. But even European ones, from the data (I’ve never experienced one), doesn’t seem effective.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    > If unions were effective I’d expect at least somewhat comparable wages… but that’s not the case. Because wage is all you care for. How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? And not just for software engineers, but for everyone? > that also means as a union worker you can’t work more and make more. You’re stuck with what the union negotiated. That also means that I cannot be forced to work overtime with no overtime pay. > But even European ones, from the data (I’ve never experienced one), doesn’t seem effective. If you only limit your data to only wages, then sure, that data will support whatever narrative you want.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      >>Because wage is all you care for. yes.. >>How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? I have no children, I will never have children, and I rarely get sick, and I hate to travel so none of that matters to me. I am forced by my employer to take the vacation I do get, and my "vacation" is me sitting around my house doing chores or gaming which I do with out vacation time as well That is the problem with Unions, they often fight for things I do not care about or need. Majoritarianism is always bad for the smallest minority... the individual >>That also means that I cannot be forced to work overtime with no overtime pay. Has a highly compensated employee that knows their value to the organizations I work for I have never been forced for work overtime with no pay.
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Thank goodness you only need a majority of votes to unionize.
        phpisthebest 4y ago
        History shows the result of that is often the highly productive staff exits for greener opportunities where they are not penalized for doing more than the minimum not to get fired, and over all the entire operation suffers leading to outsourcing or closing of facilities.
phpisthebest 4y ago
>>I find it weird that nobody in the US seems to look beyond their country or similar systems for different models regarding this. because American law only allows for American Style Labor Unions, and changing American Law would be politically impossible as the American Style Labor Unions have outsized power in politics So looking at "other models" is pointless
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Tangurena2 4y ago
In the case of rail workers, there is a separate retirement system just for rail workers. Everyone else has a retirement system called "Social Security." If you have earned a retirement benefit (well, it is an annuity) with the railway worker plan, quit to work in a job covered by social security, it is possible to lose your railway annuity. This is why many of the rail workers "don't just quit". Additionally, there are anti "double dipping" laws that reduce your railroad annuity if you get social security.

rayiner 4y ago

> I find it weird that nobody in the US seems to look beyond their country or similar systems for different models regarding this. Looking to European models would be great. But the current American union structure is written into federal statute, and there is approximately zero chance of the statute ever being amended.

lettergram 4y ago
> Looking to European models would be great. Europeans on average earn half of Americans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_median_wage_and_mean_wage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_terr... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_b... Software engineers make 4x or more their European counterparts If unions were effective I’d expect at least somewhat comparable wages… but that’s not the case. Is it time off it optimized for? I mean that might be fine, but that also means as a union worker you can’t work more and make more. You’re stuck with what the union negotiated. American unions definitely have their issues. That’s mostly where I’m coming from. But even European ones, from the data (I’ve never experienced one), doesn’t seem effective.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > If unions were effective I’d expect at least somewhat comparable wages… but that’s not the case. Because wage is all you care for. How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? And not just for software engineers, but for everyone? > that also means as a union worker you can’t work more and make more. You’re stuck with what the union negotiated. That also means that I cannot be forced to work overtime with no overtime pay. > But even European ones, from the data (I’ve never experienced one), doesn’t seem effective. If you only limit your data to only wages, then sure, that data will support whatever narrative you want.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    >>Because wage is all you care for. yes.. >>How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? I have no children, I will never have children, and I rarely get sick, and I hate to travel so none of that matters to me. I am forced by my employer to take the vacation I do get, and my "vacation" is me sitting around my house doing chores or gaming which I do with out vacation time as well That is the problem with Unions, they often fight for things I do not care about or need. Majoritarianism is always bad for the smallest minority... the individual >>That also means that I cannot be forced to work overtime with no overtime pay. Has a highly compensated employee that knows their value to the organizations I work for I have never been forced for work overtime with no pay.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Thank goodness you only need a majority of votes to unionize.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        History shows the result of that is often the highly productive staff exits for greener opportunities where they are not penalized for doing more than the minimum not to get fired, and over all the entire operation suffers leading to outsourcing or closing of facilities.

phpisthebest 4y ago

>>I find it weird that nobody in the US seems to look beyond their country or similar systems for different models regarding this. because American law only allows for American Style Labor Unions, and changing American Law would be politically impossible as the American Style Labor Unions have outsized power in politics So looking at "other models" is pointless

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Tangurena2 4y ago

In the case of rail workers, there is a separate retirement system just for rail workers. Everyone else has a retirement system called "Social Security." If you have earned a retirement benefit (well, it is an annuity) with the railway worker plan, quit to work in a job covered by social security, it is possible to lose your railway annuity. This is why many of the rail workers "don't just quit". Additionally, there are anti "double dipping" laws that reduce your railroad annuity if you get social security.