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They help in the same way that a speed limit helps drivers. Sure, it actually makes the roads safer to some extent. Is there some amount of abuse you have to ex

They help in the same way that a speed limit helps drivers. Sure, it actually makes the roads safer to some extent. Is there some amount of abuse you have to expect in enforcement? Yes. Is there some amount of unjust rule breaking that will happen? Also yes. Does it massively reduce the fun of driving? Also yes. If everyone just knew what they were doing on the road would it really be necessary? Not really. And do you need them for small, high-trust areas? Not really.

pixl97 4y ago
> And do you need them for small, high-trust areas? OSHA would disagree, and even racetracks have rules. I think a lot of developers on HN just have a problem dealing with the fact the rules are going to be applied to them. If you become an owner of a company your engineering rules go away, but then you have all the regulatory fun of a business owner trying to make a living and selling things at the same time. Working for a larger organization tends to have benefits like steady pay, but in return they ask for you to justify your expense and it's very possible the people asking for justification have no idea exactly what you do.
- ironmagma 4y ago
  OSHA is not the ultimate authority, it's just one country's solution to the problem. I don't have a problem with rules being applied to me, I just see it as dysfunction that any organization gets to the point that they need a significant set of rules. The more rules, the worse the dysfunction, typically. Exceptions include life-critical applications, where the entire existence of the company hinges on stripping human error from the product. But even then, more rules ≠ less problems. This even works introspectively; it's a bit like fitness tracking. Is a little bit of data helpful? Yes. But who is out there reading into every time they got sick and missed a few thousand steps, or thinking about every utterance and flatulence during sleep and how it signals an overall moral failing needing to be addressed? People with mental disorders, that's who.
e_i_pi_2 4y ago
Somewhat tangential, but we have the already have the tech to know when license plates show up at a certain place, we know the map and the speed limits, so we could completely automate tickets for speeding. If the limit is 60mph and you show up 10 road-miles away in less than 6 minutes then you must have sped somewhere along the way, then the owner of the car gets a ticket in the mail. In the short-term I think most people would hate this, but then I think we need to choose between raising the limit or following it. We all make the laws so we can raise the limits, and this approach completely removes the potential for abuse or playing favorites. As an added benefit it wipes out a lot of what cops spend their time on, so if you don't like cops we could justify having way less, or if you do like them then it frees up their time to focus on more important things. I also recognize this opens up a huge potential for abuse by the govt having all this data, but we already have it for tolls so we might as well use it for good - having human police officers handle stuff like this is a huge risk for abuse and a waste of time.
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  > We all make the laws so we can raise the limits How democratic is your country? Will the limits raise or will your government take the extra revenue and keep things unreasonable? You will find that people have many different answers for those.
- ironmagma 4y ago
  That would still be unjust, since there can be heavy traffic at the end which renders a speeder having driven, on average, within the speed limit. Bottom line though is that if you get too draconian with the enforcement, people will revolt. There is definitely such a thing as too much structure.. that's arguably the whole reason the US was created.

pixl97 4y ago

> And do you need them for small, high-trust areas? OSHA would disagree, and even racetracks have rules. I think a lot of developers on HN just have a problem dealing with the fact the rules are going to be applied to them. If you become an owner of a company your engineering rules go away, but then you have all the regulatory fun of a business owner trying to make a living and selling things at the same time. Working for a larger organization tends to have benefits like steady pay, but in return they ask for you to justify your expense and it's very possible the people asking for justification have no idea exactly what you do.

ironmagma 4y ago
OSHA is not the ultimate authority, it's just one country's solution to the problem. I don't have a problem with rules being applied to me, I just see it as dysfunction that any organization gets to the point that they need a significant set of rules. The more rules, the worse the dysfunction, typically. Exceptions include life-critical applications, where the entire existence of the company hinges on stripping human error from the product. But even then, more rules ≠ less problems. This even works introspectively; it's a bit like fitness tracking. Is a little bit of data helpful? Yes. But who is out there reading into every time they got sick and missed a few thousand steps, or thinking about every utterance and flatulence during sleep and how it signals an overall moral failing needing to be addressed? People with mental disorders, that's who.

e_i_pi_2 4y ago

Somewhat tangential, but we have the already have the tech to know when license plates show up at a certain place, we know the map and the speed limits, so we could completely automate tickets for speeding. If the limit is 60mph and you show up 10 road-miles away in less than 6 minutes then you must have sped somewhere along the way, then the owner of the car gets a ticket in the mail. In the short-term I think most people would hate this, but then I think we need to choose between raising the limit or following it. We all make the laws so we can raise the limits, and this approach completely removes the potential for abuse or playing favorites. As an added benefit it wipes out a lot of what cops spend their time on, so if you don't like cops we could justify having way less, or if you do like them then it frees up their time to focus on more important things. I also recognize this opens up a huge potential for abuse by the govt having all this data, but we already have it for tolls so we might as well use it for good - having human police officers handle stuff like this is a huge risk for abuse and a waste of time.

marcosdumay 4y ago
> We all make the laws so we can raise the limits How democratic is your country? Will the limits raise or will your government take the extra revenue and keep things unreasonable? You will find that people have many different answers for those.
ironmagma 4y ago
That would still be unjust, since there can be heavy traffic at the end which renders a speeder having driven, on average, within the speed limit. Bottom line though is that if you get too draconian with the enforcement, people will revolt. There is definitely such a thing as too much structure.. that's arguably the whole reason the US was created.