11 ms·

‘Wealth is a curse’: Hobby Lobby founder says he’s giving away his company

33 points by viewtransform 4y ago

ozten 4y ago
Great piece of news content for teaching critical thinking skills.
toomanyrichies 4y ago
https://archive.ph/h62Vp https://archive.ph/h62Vp
DueDilligence 4y ago
.. what a crock of shite. right on par with incessant corporate socio/psyopathology.
SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
Is this one of those deals where they "sell" the company to a trust to avoid taxes and then use the organization's power to allow he and his family to effect the course of politics for generations, like the Patagonia founder did?
- sacnoradhq 4y ago
  Also, the Silicon Valley Community Foundation (SVCF) is a "tax dodge now, donate later" vehicle more than a philanthropic nonprofit. Big time tax lawyers plus a gradually rigged system find the biggest tax "minimizations" possible.
- nickthegreek 4y ago
  No doubt. But this one will probably focus on religious causes given this company's history.
- kashunstva 4y ago
  Given that the company has already been deeply involved in key litigation around reproductive rights in the U.S., I’d venture to guess it will be more of the same.
  - listless 4y ago
    Is the term “abortion” completely off the table these days? I keep seeing “reproductive rights” and I’m not sure how that’s different other than the marketing. Is there something else included in that term that is inclusive of abortion?
    - HonestOp001 4y ago
      Slight of words, the goal is to make it a “right” so that when someone disagrees, there is a Mott and Bailey to throw out.
    - remexre 4y ago
      I thought the famous Hobby Lobby SCOTUS case wasn't abortion, it was contraceptive coverage in the health plan?
    - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
      They fought all the way to the supreme court against having to pay for the pill for their employees, so no, in this case the term "reproductive rights" is not a difference of marketing.
      - jjeaff 4y ago
        For those who may not know, 'the pill' refers to birth control.
        SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
        Good call on clarifying. To add, it's hormonal birth control for women that is also used to help with a number of other medical conditions, so it's also not solely used for contraception.
        jjeaff 4y ago
        That's right. And using hormonal birth control for other things is not some rare edge case either. It's very common.
- paul7986 4y ago
  Love this comment as I'm a total believer in how if you have billions and opinions ..you're gonna use your money to shape the entire world/change culture towards your opinions. One thing I think someone's money has been used is the rise of the trans movement (awesome please be yourself and identify as who you feel best suits you).
  - paul7986 4y ago
    Hmm getting downvoted for agreeing with OP and providing an example where I'm all for ppl wanting to live the way they want .. idk
    - fm2606 4y ago
      Yeah..the voting is a sham anyways. Opinions matter more than a down vote.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    It's abhorrent to me. It's the most blatant example of replacing democracy with a plutocracy.
    - paul7986 4y ago
      I'm not for it but money rules the world and if you have billions to more some are gonna definitely use it to shape culture to how they see fit..nothing I'd personally do if I had billions but surely some do as you can see when jack Dorsey recently said he left twitter when an activist billionaire or investor pushed their agenda. When I read that from Dorsey who seems apolitical I was like that for me helps solidify this thought I've had for a few years that we share.
prottog 4y ago
The same as Patagonia's Chouinard: > The details of how Green will give away his company are unclear, but in an interview with Fox & Friends Weekend last week, Green said that 100% of the company’s voting stock has been moved to a trust. Legally they're both giving up possession of their companies, but in reality I suspect they will both continue to exercise control over them and receive one kind of monetary compensation or another.
- sschueller 4y ago
  Instead of a trust, if they really wanted to give it away they would create a co-op and given it to the employees and customers. But like other comments have stated, this is all for tax evation and sounding good in public when in reality they retain control of the trust that now owns the company.
  - RhysU 4y ago
    He likely cannot give away more than $17K per employee per year without incurring gift taxes. Rough 43K employees (in 2020 per Wikipedia) at $17K each is a maximum tax-free gift of $731M to some hypothetical co-op. In 2022 Hobby Lobby had $7.7B in revenue suggesting that it is worth quite a bit more than $731M. The difference would be subject to gift taxes at a rate of 40% if transferred into employee hands. He frankly could not have given it materially to the employees at once without liquidating a serious portion of his holdings to pay the gift taxes. Though, it could be transferred as compensation and taxed at income rates. But then the employees would be dumping shares to pay the taxes. (Someone please correct me if I am off here with my numbers/understanding.)
  - tony_cannistra 4y ago
    I'd say a move toward a co-op would be too risky of a step for a billion-dollar company. The whole intent behind the Patagonia decision was to dethrone shareholder primacy while still maintaining some control / centralized governance.
    - sschueller 4y ago
tony_cannistra 4y ago
As with the the Chouinard / Patagonia situation, the "giving away company" line is unfortunately just another example of bad headline writing. One really must examine the individuals making this decision + their track record before we make judgments about the merits of this choice for folks other than the family. Does Yvon's track record with Patagonia align with my values and make me trust his choice as being truly "beneficial" for the planet? Yes. Did the Chouinard family also avoid $700 million in taxes by "giving away the company" (e.g. putting the shares in one or more trusts, like Hobby Lobby family will). Also yes. [0] [0]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-15/patagonia-billionaire-who-gave-up-company-skirts-700-million-tax-hit https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-15/patagonia...
- Yujf 4y ago
  He would owe the tax of he would sell the company. I fail to see how that is relevant? If he simply kept it he would also not owe the 700 mil.
  - snarf21 4y ago
    The trust avoids taxes at his death. We need new laws so that when you get money, you pay taxes. Enough of the loopholes for the 0.1% but no one else.
  - sam_lowry_ 4y ago
    succession planning
tamaharbor 4y ago
Hopefully the new owners will invest in barcode scanners. (The current checkout process is extremely tedious.)
- xen2xen1 4y ago
  Funnier than I immediately realized.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- buildsjets 4y ago
  I doubt it. They truly believe that UPCs are "The Mark of The Beast."
okasaki 4y ago
I would gladly take on the burden of this particular curse...
dang 4y ago
We changed the URL from https://archive.vn/efx0q https://archive.vn/efx0q. It's fine to include archive links in threads, but please don't post them to the top level—unless the original is really no longer available online. "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Scubabear68 4y ago
God taught me this one neat accounting trick…
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  "Render unto Caesar what is Caeser's" is for suckers.
  - listless 4y ago
    And for the record, the taxes were far far worse at that time. People were being absolutely opressed via the taxation scheme which was utterly corrupt. And Jesus tells them to pay it.
    - sparks1970 4y ago
      But the rest of the quote is "....and unto God the things that are God's". Context is rather important. Jesus (reportedly) says this to avoid speaking out against the tax which would have got him in trouble with the authorities but he's also making a point about the material vs spiritual which I think has some worth even to an atheist like me. I'm not sure why I'm making this defence of Jesus. I don't think he existed but your statement seems designed to paint Jesus as a supporter of tyranny which I don't believe follows from the quote and its context. What his "followers" have gone on to do? Heinous, reprehensible, appalling. No question.
      - listless 4y ago
        “your statement seems designed to paint Jesus as a supporter of tyranny” Not at all. But rather to point out that the right thing to do isn’t always obvious.
        sparks1970 4y ago
        Thanks for clarification.
EarlKing 4y ago
> Wealth is a curse ...said absolutely no one without wealth.
- jjeaff 4y ago
  Not wealthy, but I have long believed that too much wealth can be a curse. Of course, some handle it well and other, I can confidently say that they probably would have had a much better life had they not had tons of money thrown in their lap. Especially those who had it given to them at a young age.
jksmith 4y ago
"If it floats, flies, or fornicates, better to rent it than to own it..." Felix also suggested that anything over $80m is too much trouble. A learned perspective no doubt.
- toomanyrichies 4y ago
  "Felix" is not mentioned in the original article or anywhere else in this thread, so I had to Google who OP is talking about. Apparently it's entrepreneur Felix Dennis, founder of Dennis Publishing and publisher of Maxim, Stuff, and Blender magazines: 1. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9622552-if-it-flies-floats-or-fornicates-always-rent-it-it-s https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9622552-if-it-flies-floats-...
  - jksmith 4y ago
    Yes, his book "How to Get Rich" is an entertaining and favored read around here.
shove 4y ago
I normally wouldn't put much stock (lol) in the notion that "wealth is a curse" but considering our guy was busted smuggling Iraqi antiquities during the war...
ldbooth 4y ago
Subtext "Stop asking me for money people."
sparcpile 4y ago
This also the same company that smuggled artifacts out of Iraq. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobby_Lobby_smuggling_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobby_Lobby_smuggling_scandal It did come to a head with the case of United States of America v. Approximately Four Hundred Fifty Ancient Cuneiform Tablets and Approximately Three Thousand Ancient Clay Bullae

33 points by viewtransform 4y ago

ozten 4y ago

Great piece of news content for teaching critical thinking skills.

toomanyrichies 4y ago

https://archive.ph/h62Vp https://archive.ph/h62Vp

DueDilligence 4y ago

.. what a crock of shite. right on par with incessant corporate socio/psyopathology.

SketchySeaBeast 4y ago

Is this one of those deals where they "sell" the company to a trust to avoid taxes and then use the organization's power to allow he and his family to effect the course of politics for generations, like the Patagonia founder did?

sacnoradhq 4y ago
Also, the Silicon Valley Community Foundation (SVCF) is a "tax dodge now, donate later" vehicle more than a philanthropic nonprofit. Big time tax lawyers plus a gradually rigged system find the biggest tax "minimizations" possible.
nickthegreek 4y ago
No doubt. But this one will probably focus on religious causes given this company's history.
kashunstva 4y ago
Given that the company has already been deeply involved in key litigation around reproductive rights in the U.S., I’d venture to guess it will be more of the same.
- listless 4y ago
  Is the term “abortion” completely off the table these days? I keep seeing “reproductive rights” and I’m not sure how that’s different other than the marketing. Is there something else included in that term that is inclusive of abortion?
  - HonestOp001 4y ago
    Slight of words, the goal is to make it a “right” so that when someone disagrees, there is a Mott and Bailey to throw out.
  - remexre 4y ago
    I thought the famous Hobby Lobby SCOTUS case wasn't abortion, it was contraceptive coverage in the health plan?
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    They fought all the way to the supreme court against having to pay for the pill for their employees, so no, in this case the term "reproductive rights" is not a difference of marketing.
    - jjeaff 4y ago
      For those who may not know, 'the pill' refers to birth control.
      - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
        Good call on clarifying. To add, it's hormonal birth control for women that is also used to help with a number of other medical conditions, so it's also not solely used for contraception.
        jjeaff 4y ago
        That's right. And using hormonal birth control for other things is not some rare edge case either. It's very common.
paul7986 4y ago
Love this comment as I'm a total believer in how if you have billions and opinions ..you're gonna use your money to shape the entire world/change culture towards your opinions. One thing I think someone's money has been used is the rise of the trans movement (awesome please be yourself and identify as who you feel best suits you).
- paul7986 4y ago
  Hmm getting downvoted for agreeing with OP and providing an example where I'm all for ppl wanting to live the way they want .. idk
  - fm2606 4y ago
    Yeah..the voting is a sham anyways. Opinions matter more than a down vote.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  It's abhorrent to me. It's the most blatant example of replacing democracy with a plutocracy.
  - paul7986 4y ago
    I'm not for it but money rules the world and if you have billions to more some are gonna definitely use it to shape culture to how they see fit..nothing I'd personally do if I had billions but surely some do as you can see when jack Dorsey recently said he left twitter when an activist billionaire or investor pushed their agenda. When I read that from Dorsey who seems apolitical I was like that for me helps solidify this thought I've had for a few years that we share.

prottog 4y ago

The same as Patagonia's Chouinard: > The details of how Green will give away his company are unclear, but in an interview with Fox & Friends Weekend last week, Green said that 100% of the company’s voting stock has been moved to a trust. Legally they're both giving up possession of their companies, but in reality I suspect they will both continue to exercise control over them and receive one kind of monetary compensation or another.

sschueller 4y ago
Instead of a trust, if they really wanted to give it away they would create a co-op and given it to the employees and customers. But like other comments have stated, this is all for tax evation and sounding good in public when in reality they retain control of the trust that now owns the company.
- RhysU 4y ago
  He likely cannot give away more than $17K per employee per year without incurring gift taxes. Rough 43K employees (in 2020 per Wikipedia) at $17K each is a maximum tax-free gift of $731M to some hypothetical co-op. In 2022 Hobby Lobby had $7.7B in revenue suggesting that it is worth quite a bit more than $731M. The difference would be subject to gift taxes at a rate of 40% if transferred into employee hands. He frankly could not have given it materially to the employees at once without liquidating a serious portion of his holdings to pay the gift taxes. Though, it could be transferred as compensation and taxed at income rates. But then the employees would be dumping shares to pay the taxes. (Someone please correct me if I am off here with my numbers/understanding.)
- tony_cannistra 4y ago
  I'd say a move toward a co-op would be too risky of a step for a billion-dollar company. The whole intent behind the Patagonia decision was to dethrone shareholder primacy while still maintaining some control / centralized governance.
  - sschueller 4y ago

tony_cannistra 4y ago

As with the the Chouinard / Patagonia situation, the "giving away company" line is unfortunately just another example of bad headline writing. One really must examine the individuals making this decision + their track record before we make judgments about the merits of this choice for folks other than the family. Does Yvon's track record with Patagonia align with my values and make me trust his choice as being truly "beneficial" for the planet? Yes. Did the Chouinard family also avoid $700 million in taxes by "giving away the company" (e.g. putting the shares in one or more trusts, like Hobby Lobby family will). Also yes. [0] [0]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-15/patagonia-billionaire-who-gave-up-company-skirts-700-million-tax-hit https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-15/patagonia...

Yujf 4y ago
He would owe the tax of he would sell the company. I fail to see how that is relevant? If he simply kept it he would also not owe the 700 mil.
- snarf21 4y ago
  The trust avoids taxes at his death. We need new laws so that when you get money, you pay taxes. Enough of the loopholes for the 0.1% but no one else.
- sam_lowry_ 4y ago
  succession planning

tamaharbor 4y ago

Hopefully the new owners will invest in barcode scanners. (The current checkout process is extremely tedious.)

xen2xen1 4y ago
Funnier than I immediately realized.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
buildsjets 4y ago
I doubt it. They truly believe that UPCs are "The Mark of The Beast."

okasaki 4y ago

I would gladly take on the burden of this particular curse...

dang 4y ago

We changed the URL from https://archive.vn/efx0q https://archive.vn/efx0q. It's fine to include archive links in threads, but please don't post them to the top level—unless the original is really no longer available online. "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Scubabear68 4y ago

God taught me this one neat accounting trick…

SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
"Render unto Caesar what is Caeser's" is for suckers.
- listless 4y ago
  And for the record, the taxes were far far worse at that time. People were being absolutely opressed via the taxation scheme which was utterly corrupt. And Jesus tells them to pay it.
  - sparks1970 4y ago
    But the rest of the quote is "....and unto God the things that are God's". Context is rather important. Jesus (reportedly) says this to avoid speaking out against the tax which would have got him in trouble with the authorities but he's also making a point about the material vs spiritual which I think has some worth even to an atheist like me. I'm not sure why I'm making this defence of Jesus. I don't think he existed but your statement seems designed to paint Jesus as a supporter of tyranny which I don't believe follows from the quote and its context. What his "followers" have gone on to do? Heinous, reprehensible, appalling. No question.
    - listless 4y ago
      “your statement seems designed to paint Jesus as a supporter of tyranny” Not at all. But rather to point out that the right thing to do isn’t always obvious.
      - sparks1970 4y ago
        Thanks for clarification.

EarlKing 4y ago

> Wealth is a curse ...said absolutely no one without wealth.

jjeaff 4y ago
Not wealthy, but I have long believed that too much wealth can be a curse. Of course, some handle it well and other, I can confidently say that they probably would have had a much better life had they not had tons of money thrown in their lap. Especially those who had it given to them at a young age.

jksmith 4y ago

"If it floats, flies, or fornicates, better to rent it than to own it..." Felix also suggested that anything over $80m is too much trouble. A learned perspective no doubt.

toomanyrichies 4y ago
"Felix" is not mentioned in the original article or anywhere else in this thread, so I had to Google who OP is talking about. Apparently it's entrepreneur Felix Dennis, founder of Dennis Publishing and publisher of Maxim, Stuff, and Blender magazines: 1. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9622552-if-it-flies-floats-or-fornicates-always-rent-it-it-s https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9622552-if-it-flies-floats-...
- jksmith 4y ago
  Yes, his book "How to Get Rich" is an entertaining and favored read around here.

shove 4y ago

I normally wouldn't put much stock (lol) in the notion that "wealth is a curse" but considering our guy was busted smuggling Iraqi antiquities during the war...

ldbooth 4y ago

Subtext "Stop asking me for money people."

sparcpile 4y ago

This also the same company that smuggled artifacts out of Iraq. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobby_Lobby_smuggling_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobby_Lobby_smuggling_scandal It did come to a head with the case of United States of America v. Approximately Four Hundred Fifty Ancient Cuneiform Tablets and Approximately Three Thousand Ancient Clay Bullae