5 ms·

Microsoft sues UK retailer Comet for selling over 94k counterfeit Windows CDs

61 points by m4tt 15y ago

AndrewDucker 15y ago
It staggers me that a reputable high-street company like Comet would do this. I'd love to know what on earth they were thinking!
andyking 15y ago
Comet is largely insolvent and has recently been sold for a token £2 to a "retail turnaround" outfit called OpCapita: http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/business/business-news/kesa_sees_few_signs_of_festive_cheer_on_high_street_1_4040772 http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/business/business-news/kesa_s... You expect this sort of thing if you go to the Bowlers computer fair, but not at Comet!
- UK-Al05 15y ago
  Oh man I used to go that fair when I was young with my dad, buying the latest upgrades for my computer so i can play the latest games. There was a lot of pirating as you say. I haven't really been for 10 years, since everything's online now and i'm not really into hardware anymore. Memories.
- EwanToo 15y ago
  I don't think the sale has completed yet, I wonder if this will make the new buyers think that £2 might be a bit much after all..
citricsquid 15y ago
I could understand if their supplier had "tricked" them, but they willingly produced and sold the counterfeit copies themselves? No wonder they're falling apart.
hellweaver666 15y ago
Comet are a shady bunch... they're well known over here for selling extended warranties that they refuse to honor. I've been stung by it myself but stupidly didn't do the research until it was too late.
- blasterford 15y ago
  Sorry to say it, but if you buy an extended warranty on anything you're wasting your money. The whole 'extended warranty' business is how retailers make their money, but are a complete scam. Hardly anything goes wrong these days, and the price of the extended warranty is far far higher than the risk of it going wrong.
  - Deestan 15y ago
    It can work, though. Some retailers do it properly. I have had use for it for a printer and a portable CD player. The extra warranty was about +10% of the product price, and they said it covered "anything, including kids dropping it on the floor or you spilling coffee on it". Unsurprisingly, the CD player lid stopped working because the kids managed to knock it off a shelf. I took it back to the outlet and got a new one with no paperwork or questions asked. A few months later the printer broke down because my hamster defecated severely into the paper feeder mechanism. This, too, was replaced with no cost to me.
    - blasterford 15y ago
      > and they said it covered "anything, including kids dropping it on the floor or you spilling coffee on it". That should raise a giant red flag. Unless you're extremely careless and don't look after things, you're paying for other peoples carelessness.
      - Deestan 15y ago
        Or I could think of it as gambling that enough other people either 1) are lucky, 2) don't bother with the return ("I don't really need it/want another.") or 3) forget about the return. But, I don't think of it in terms of how much money I "save" by breaking stuff. I pay the extra cost and try to be careful. What I get back is Less Worry. If the thingy breaks down, I get a new thingy. That's worth money to me. The alternative is to handle the risk myself, and saving the 10%s into a "surprise expense account" to use when things break down. I'm convinced I don't have the discipline for that - both managing it and not using the money for other expenses.
Ctech237 15y ago
Unfortunately this seems to be common in the UK. If you go to http://www.laptopsdirect.co.uk http://www.laptopsdirect.co.uk they do the same thing. When you add a laptop to your basket they add a “Restore and Recovery Disk” to your order for £15 (~$24) even though laptops come with this CD sealed in the box or you can create it from an image file on the laptop. When I questioned them via telephone they quickly backed off and took it off the order.
- aes256 15y ago
  The whole point of this lawsuit is that most manufacturers don't provide recovery disks anymore; hidden recovery partitions are the norm these days. Comet apparently took it upon themselves to burn these disks for their customers, and this seems to be what Laptops Direct are doing as well, albeit charging for the privilege. If Laptops Direct have an agreement with Microsoft, then fair enough. The average computer user won't think to burn a recovery disk until it's too late, hence the conundrum.
m4tt 15y ago
Comet has issued a response to the lawsuit: “Comet has sought and received legal advice from leading counsel to support its view that the production of recovery discs did not infringe Microsoft’s intellectual property. “Comet firmly believes that it acted in the very best interests of its customers. It believes its customers had been adversely affected by the decision to stop supplying recovery discs with each new Microsoft Operating System based computer. Accordingly Comet is satisfied that it has a good defence to the claim and will defend its position vigorously.” I have updated the article to reflect this.
- macca321 15y ago
  Well I bloody hate it when you go round to fix your uncle's PC and then ask for the recovery CD and there isn't one because MS didn't want him to have one. Go Comet!
  - sigzero 15y ago
    There is generally a way to burn your own if you want them. That would be your Uncle's fault and not Microsofts. I am not an MS fan either. While I understand what Comet is saying to try and defend themselves, they cannot in this in this case.
    - chalst 15y ago
      MS have frequently insinuated that rescue disks are not clearly within the shrinkwrap TOS. For example, from Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_live_CDs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_live_CDs: > Microsoft representatives have described third-party efforts at producing Windows-based Live CDs as “improperly licensed” uses of Windows, unless you use it solely to rescue your own, properly licensed Installation. However, Nu2 Productions believes the use of BartPE is legal provided that one Windows license is purchased for each BartPE CD, and the Windows license is used for nothing else.[http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/licensing/ http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/licensing/] I hope that Comet wins this one. What Comet was doing I think, in essence, follows the intuition that Nu2 gave. In any case, pushing back against these kinds of IP restrictions is basically a win for our freedom to tinker.
guelo 15y ago
I haven't bought a retail Windows PC in a while, is there not normally a Windows CD included?
- dan1234 15y ago
  Most manufacturers now rely on a hidden recovery partition on the HD instead of a recovery disc, though there is generally an option to burn one in the start menu.
- weego 15y ago
  If you buy a laptop you are pretty much guaranteed to have make a set of recovery discs as your first task (before cleaning off all the trialware and then trying to find a way to get rid of the hidden partition). Last time I did it the recovery discs weren't even a full windows install as such. I always buy PCs that are pre-built from components and usually get an OEM disc of windows thrown in, but I gather if you buy a branded PC from a shop you are in the same boat as the laptops.
- domador 15y ago
  Not bundling a recovery disc with a laptop is a major disservice to customers. Especially when the program to produce the recovery discs requires two blank DVDs, runs into errors on the second disc, and makes you start the whole process from the beginning (instead of letting you only burn the second disc). That was my experience with a laptop I acquired a few months ago. I needlessly burned two or three copies of the first disc while trying to get the second disc to burn correctly.
alexchamberlain 15y ago
So, was Comet burning a recovery disc on behalf of their customers? Therefore, you need a Windows machine for the disc to recover? Doesn't every IT tech carry a recovery disc in their wallet in case of an emergency? Think I've missed something and the title seems a little misleading. Comet haven't been selling dodgy Windows knockoffs, just giving their (non-techy) customers a way to recover their (expensive) PC when (not if) it goes wrong.
- dan1234 15y ago
  The problem seems to be that they haven't been giving their customers these discs, but selling them.
  - alexchamberlain 15y ago
    How much for? It would be reasonable for them to charge a small fee for the disc and burning, as long as they made it clear the customer didn't have to buy it from them and that they could make this same CD at home. I think Microsoft need to defend their IP, but not at the expense of a business trying to provide a genuine customer service. A conversation, rather than a court filing, may have been more appropriate in this case, especially as Comet has no money.
    - dan1234 15y ago
      I think Microsoft need to get convince the manufacturers that not providing any physical recovery medium is not acceptable. IMHO, a recovery disc or USB drive should be supplied as standard, as part of the Windows licence.
chalst 15y ago
MS have frequently insinuated that rescue disks are not clearly within the shrinkwrap TOS. For example, from Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_live_CDs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_live_CDs: > Microsoft representatives have described third-party efforts at producing Windows-based Live CDs as “improperly licensed” uses of Windows, unless you use it solely to rescue your own, properly licensed Installation. However, Nu2 Productions believes the use of BartPE is legal provided that one Windows license is purchased for each BartPE CD, and the Windows license is used for nothing else.[http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/licensing/ http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/licensing/] I hope that Comet wins this one. What Comet was doing I think, in essence, follows the intuition that Nu2 gave. In any case, pushing back against these kinds of IP restrictions is basically a win for our freedom to tinker.
VonLipwig 15y ago
The story is misleading. It say's that Comet sold 94k counterfeit Windows CD's. Comet seem to say that as manufacturers stopped packaging computer's with CD's they decided to make their own. Assuming this is true. Each computer had a valid Windows license. Comet decided to burn the CD's itself so users didn't have to try to make their own recovery disks. I don't seem the harm. I mean.. users can make their own recovery disc's anyway can't they? Comet was just saving them a step?
- xd 15y ago
  I think the problem is, comet where selling the cds. I'd be curious to know for how much.
  - Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
    That's not what Comet are saying. They're providing them as recovery CDs to people purchasing machines with Windows installed. That said there is a question whether they were providing them free or at a cost.
    - awa 15y ago
      According to another article Comet did charge for these CDs "There was a number of disks made, on which there was a cost and Comet charged this to the customer." http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/04/us-microsoft-idUSTRE8030PQ20120104 http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/04/us-microsoft-idUST...
- powertower 15y ago
  We'd have to look at the details of the lawsuit itself to get the real story. There could be much more to this.
- galadriel 15y ago
  Just guessing without the details of the case, Comet most likely had a license to sell Windows pre-installed on their computer, but not for supplying a recovery disc. Microsoft is well within its right to sell Windows which ever way they like, as long as they don't abuse their monopoly. If Comet felt that their customer were not getting a good deal and that Microsoft was monopolistic, there are other recourse in law, which do not involve violating copyrights.

61 points by m4tt 15y ago

It staggers me that a reputable high-street company like Comet would do this. I'd love to know what on earth they were thinking!

andyking 15y ago

Comet is largely insolvent and has recently been sold for a token £2 to a "retail turnaround" outfit called OpCapita: http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/business/business-news/kesa_sees_few_signs_of_festive_cheer_on_high_street_1_4040772 http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/business/business-news/kesa_s... You expect this sort of thing if you go to the Bowlers computer fair, but not at Comet!

UK-Al05 15y ago
Oh man I used to go that fair when I was young with my dad, buying the latest upgrades for my computer so i can play the latest games. There was a lot of pirating as you say. I haven't really been for 10 years, since everything's online now and i'm not really into hardware anymore. Memories.
EwanToo 15y ago
I don't think the sale has completed yet, I wonder if this will make the new buyers think that £2 might be a bit much after all..

citricsquid 15y ago

I could understand if their supplier had "tricked" them, but they willingly produced and sold the counterfeit copies themselves? No wonder they're falling apart.

hellweaver666 15y ago

Comet are a shady bunch... they're well known over here for selling extended warranties that they refuse to honor. I've been stung by it myself but stupidly didn't do the research until it was too late.

blasterford 15y ago
Sorry to say it, but if you buy an extended warranty on anything you're wasting your money. The whole 'extended warranty' business is how retailers make their money, but are a complete scam. Hardly anything goes wrong these days, and the price of the extended warranty is far far higher than the risk of it going wrong.
- Deestan 15y ago
  It can work, though. Some retailers do it properly. I have had use for it for a printer and a portable CD player. The extra warranty was about +10% of the product price, and they said it covered "anything, including kids dropping it on the floor or you spilling coffee on it". Unsurprisingly, the CD player lid stopped working because the kids managed to knock it off a shelf. I took it back to the outlet and got a new one with no paperwork or questions asked. A few months later the printer broke down because my hamster defecated severely into the paper feeder mechanism. This, too, was replaced with no cost to me.
  - blasterford 15y ago
    > and they said it covered "anything, including kids dropping it on the floor or you spilling coffee on it". That should raise a giant red flag. Unless you're extremely careless and don't look after things, you're paying for other peoples carelessness.
    - Deestan 15y ago
      Or I could think of it as gambling that enough other people either 1) are lucky, 2) don't bother with the return ("I don't really need it/want another.") or 3) forget about the return. But, I don't think of it in terms of how much money I "save" by breaking stuff. I pay the extra cost and try to be careful. What I get back is Less Worry. If the thingy breaks down, I get a new thingy. That's worth money to me. The alternative is to handle the risk myself, and saving the 10%s into a "surprise expense account" to use when things break down. I'm convinced I don't have the discipline for that - both managing it and not using the money for other expenses.

Ctech237 15y ago

Unfortunately this seems to be common in the UK. If you go to http://www.laptopsdirect.co.uk http://www.laptopsdirect.co.uk they do the same thing. When you add a laptop to your basket they add a “Restore and Recovery Disk” to your order for £15 (~$24) even though laptops come with this CD sealed in the box or you can create it from an image file on the laptop. When I questioned them via telephone they quickly backed off and took it off the order.

aes256 15y ago
The whole point of this lawsuit is that most manufacturers don't provide recovery disks anymore; hidden recovery partitions are the norm these days. Comet apparently took it upon themselves to burn these disks for their customers, and this seems to be what Laptops Direct are doing as well, albeit charging for the privilege. If Laptops Direct have an agreement with Microsoft, then fair enough. The average computer user won't think to burn a recovery disk until it's too late, hence the conundrum.

m4tt 15y ago

Comet has issued a response to the lawsuit: “Comet has sought and received legal advice from leading counsel to support its view that the production of recovery discs did not infringe Microsoft’s intellectual property. “Comet firmly believes that it acted in the very best interests of its customers. It believes its customers had been adversely affected by the decision to stop supplying recovery discs with each new Microsoft Operating System based computer. Accordingly Comet is satisfied that it has a good defence to the claim and will defend its position vigorously.” I have updated the article to reflect this.

macca321 15y ago
Well I bloody hate it when you go round to fix your uncle's PC and then ask for the recovery CD and there isn't one because MS didn't want him to have one. Go Comet!
- sigzero 15y ago
  There is generally a way to burn your own if you want them. That would be your Uncle's fault and not Microsofts. I am not an MS fan either. While I understand what Comet is saying to try and defend themselves, they cannot in this in this case.
  - chalst 15y ago
    MS have frequently insinuated that rescue disks are not clearly within the shrinkwrap TOS. For example, from Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_live_CDs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_live_CDs: > Microsoft representatives have described third-party efforts at producing Windows-based Live CDs as “improperly licensed” uses of Windows, unless you use it solely to rescue your own, properly licensed Installation. However, Nu2 Productions believes the use of BartPE is legal provided that one Windows license is purchased for each BartPE CD, and the Windows license is used for nothing else.[http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/licensing/ http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/licensing/] I hope that Comet wins this one. What Comet was doing I think, in essence, follows the intuition that Nu2 gave. In any case, pushing back against these kinds of IP restrictions is basically a win for our freedom to tinker.

guelo 15y ago

I haven't bought a retail Windows PC in a while, is there not normally a Windows CD included?

dan1234 15y ago
Most manufacturers now rely on a hidden recovery partition on the HD instead of a recovery disc, though there is generally an option to burn one in the start menu.
weego 15y ago
If you buy a laptop you are pretty much guaranteed to have make a set of recovery discs as your first task (before cleaning off all the trialware and then trying to find a way to get rid of the hidden partition). Last time I did it the recovery discs weren't even a full windows install as such. I always buy PCs that are pre-built from components and usually get an OEM disc of windows thrown in, but I gather if you buy a branded PC from a shop you are in the same boat as the laptops.
domador 15y ago
Not bundling a recovery disc with a laptop is a major disservice to customers. Especially when the program to produce the recovery discs requires two blank DVDs, runs into errors on the second disc, and makes you start the whole process from the beginning (instead of letting you only burn the second disc). That was my experience with a laptop I acquired a few months ago. I needlessly burned two or three copies of the first disc while trying to get the second disc to burn correctly.

alexchamberlain 15y ago

So, was Comet burning a recovery disc on behalf of their customers? Therefore, you need a Windows machine for the disc to recover? Doesn't every IT tech carry a recovery disc in their wallet in case of an emergency? Think I've missed something and the title seems a little misleading. Comet haven't been selling dodgy Windows knockoffs, just giving their (non-techy) customers a way to recover their (expensive) PC when (not if) it goes wrong.

dan1234 15y ago
The problem seems to be that they haven't been giving their customers these discs, but selling them.
- alexchamberlain 15y ago
  How much for? It would be reasonable for them to charge a small fee for the disc and burning, as long as they made it clear the customer didn't have to buy it from them and that they could make this same CD at home. I think Microsoft need to defend their IP, but not at the expense of a business trying to provide a genuine customer service. A conversation, rather than a court filing, may have been more appropriate in this case, especially as Comet has no money.
  - dan1234 15y ago
    I think Microsoft need to get convince the manufacturers that not providing any physical recovery medium is not acceptable. IMHO, a recovery disc or USB drive should be supplied as standard, as part of the Windows licence.

chalst 15y ago

MS have frequently insinuated that rescue disks are not clearly within the shrinkwrap TOS. For example, from Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_live_CDs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_live_CDs: > Microsoft representatives have described third-party efforts at producing Windows-based Live CDs as “improperly licensed” uses of Windows, unless you use it solely to rescue your own, properly licensed Installation. However, Nu2 Productions believes the use of BartPE is legal provided that one Windows license is purchased for each BartPE CD, and the Windows license is used for nothing else.[http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/licensing/ http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/licensing/] I hope that Comet wins this one. What Comet was doing I think, in essence, follows the intuition that Nu2 gave. In any case, pushing back against these kinds of IP restrictions is basically a win for our freedom to tinker.

VonLipwig 15y ago

The story is misleading. It say's that Comet sold 94k counterfeit Windows CD's. Comet seem to say that as manufacturers stopped packaging computer's with CD's they decided to make their own. Assuming this is true. Each computer had a valid Windows license. Comet decided to burn the CD's itself so users didn't have to try to make their own recovery disks. I don't seem the harm. I mean.. users can make their own recovery disc's anyway can't they? Comet was just saving them a step?

xd 15y ago
I think the problem is, comet where selling the cds. I'd be curious to know for how much.
- Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
  That's not what Comet are saying. They're providing them as recovery CDs to people purchasing machines with Windows installed. That said there is a question whether they were providing them free or at a cost.
  - awa 15y ago
    According to another article Comet did charge for these CDs "There was a number of disks made, on which there was a cost and Comet charged this to the customer." http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/04/us-microsoft-idUSTRE8030PQ20120104 http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/04/us-microsoft-idUST...
powertower 15y ago
We'd have to look at the details of the lawsuit itself to get the real story. There could be much more to this.
galadriel 15y ago
Just guessing without the details of the case, Comet most likely had a license to sell Windows pre-installed on their computer, but not for supplying a recovery disc. Microsoft is well within its right to sell Windows which ever way they like, as long as they don't abuse their monopoly. If Comet felt that their customer were not getting a good deal and that Microsoft was monopolistic, there are other recourse in law, which do not involve violating copyrights.