7 ms·

What's with every paid software product being a monthly subscription now? I just wanna buy and forget, not be reminded of it every month on my credit card state

What's with every paid software product being a monthly subscription now? I just wanna buy and forget, not be reminded of it every month on my credit card statement.

stewartlynch8 4y ago
I understand the resistance to a monthly subscription, but it's the only way I can continue to work on 10x. I've been working on 10x for 6 years now, and even with the generous support from the beta subscribers I can't go on indefinitely like this. Hopefully the subscription will seem worth it with all of the bug fixes and features that are planned. I will continue uploading new versions regularly, as I have been doing: https://10xeditor.com/versions.htm https://10xeditor.com/versions.htm
Gys 4y ago
You do not want updates that solve bugs? Some support in case you have questions or problems? Maybe also some new features (usually the word changes and also your experience and expectations)?
- zbrozek 4y ago
  I want low-bug-density software I buy once and don't receive updates for until I pay again.
  - aix1 4y ago
    Exactly this, thank you for articulating it so well.
  - wnkrshm 4y ago
    We should pay for features not for fixes
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - someguydave 4y ago
    Unfortunately very few are willing to pay a high price up front for quality software.
- berkle4455 4y ago
  If I paid for a fully working product, fixes should be included, similar to how vehicle oems issue recalls and provide a warranty/guarantee.
  - have_faith 4y ago
    Am I right that the Sketch app used to work like this? just looked at their website and only see a subscription offered.
    - junon 4y ago
      It's because nobody complained when software moved toward subscription models.
- ltbarcly3 4y ago
  Somehow software vendors were able to accomplish 2 things during the last 4 decades: 1. Ship software, including free updates for the current version to fix bugs, without any fees beyond the purchase price. 2. Become the richest companies in the world, by far, to the point it's not even close. So the idea that they need subscriptions so they can 'afford' to fix bugs is ridiculous. Also, paying the subscription isn't a warranty, maybe they collect my money and don't fix my bugs.
  - bogwog 4y ago
    They didn't become the richest companies in the world by selling software without a subscription, they did it by illegally suppressing competition without any repercussions (among other things)
    - someguydave 4y ago
      Agreed, when I think of "rich software companies" they all either had monopolies or were able to monopolize a significant network or "mindshare".
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    The free updates don't last indefinitely, generally you still have to pay for "extended" support.
    - rightbyte 4y ago
      If you have happily used some software for say 6 years, it is no problem if the vendor stops fixing bugs in it. It already works. SaaS and subscriptions is mainly a way to control the users and milk them for money.
- yeputons 4y ago
  I want these much less than I want the ability to run the software without the danger of a developer disabling access on a whim. Happened too many times already, including to me personally. A standard example: games.
- heavenlyblue 4y ago
  I don't want to finance their project managers shipping new "social" features and useless functionality that I am not paying them for.
- nurettin 4y ago
  Bugs should be solved because the author made mistakes in software that they sold, and are in the process of actively selling. Not because I have a subscription. Features should be added as addons that I may or may not purchase. Support should be optional.
  - TheArcane 4y ago
    Exactly, just like a game on Steam or PS5
- GuB-42 4y ago
  Yes, and don't mind paying for these. But I also want the software I buy to keep working as well as they did the day I bought them. I don't expect the developer to fix all bugs forever without any additional payment, even less add features, but I'd rather not have a kill switch, which for a text editor is what subscriptions are. Many software vendors (ex: Jetbrains) offer renewable permanent licences that pays for maintenance without the kill switch. Sublime Text, which is possibly 10x most direct competitor now has a permanent license with 3 years of updates, which can be considered a subscription (you have to pay every 3 years for updates), but if you stop, your software won't break.
andsoitis 4y ago
I’m fine with software subscriptions (fixes, upgrades, customer support, etc.), but subscribing for something that’s still in development (this case) is harder for me to swallow, in principle. On the other hand, it is very little money and you can cancel your subscription at any time so it keeps the developer honest (focus to make the product better and reach 1.0). What I’m most surprised by is that Visual Studio isn’t more than adequate. What does Microsoft use internally?
yellow_lead 4y ago
> There is no need to pay for a license while 10x is in Beta, you are free to use 10x for whatever you like. Even if you don't become a supporter you can still give feedback and suggestions using the contact form. Your feedback is just as valuable to me and will help to make 10x the best editor possible. https://10xeditor.com/support_10x.htm https://10xeditor.com/support_10x.htm
karaterobot 4y ago
They should call it 12x. I'm at the point where I just don't do these small monthly subscriptions anymore. I'd stop short of saying it's predatory. More like it's insulting. The smaller the payment, the more like I feel they're counting on me forgetting I'm paying them, or not wanting to go through the cancellation process.
charcircuit 4y ago
It provides an incentive to keep shipping value to your existing users as opposed to trying to solely grow the size of the userbase since only new users give you money.
witx 4y ago
I actively dislike the subscription model as well and it's permeating into software products unfortunately. With this said I actually like Jetbrains' model where you pay something like a subscription but after 12 installments you get to keep the version you've paid for, even if you discontinue the subscription. If you prefer you can pay the full price upfront and you get the same result.
neomantra 4y ago
While I understand that sentiment, this appears to be a product from an indie developer. In that regard, it could fit the model of Patreon/OnlyFans rather than Adobe Creative Cloud and Office365. I actually hope more indie developers do this -- and complement it with live-coding the product development and other neat perks. If it reaches critical mass beyond "fans" and becomes major-version-based sales, then early supporters could get large discounts. Biggest downside seems to be if the software becomes End-of-Life and End-Of-Access suddenly, for whatever reason, and my workflow is disrupted. Some Open Source Parachute would be cool -- over time, we are all affected by dropped software products, by developers big and small.
corysama 4y ago
I’ve never worked on indie desktop software, but I’ve heard the same story repeated here for over a decade by those who have: Everyone wants buy once, updated forever software. But, they don’t want to pay for it. Usually they think a fair, up-front price is less than they’d pay month-to-month as a subscription for a year. And, then 80+% of them will only buy when there is a big sale cutting that price to a fraction. And, even when you have a good product at a good price, your sales plummet every time the crack for your DRM gets updated. So, you have to push frivolous updates that mainly exist to keep your DRM ahead of the crackers. Buy once works great for consumers. And, has worked great for a handful of products. But, commercial desktop software has been an excessively difficult market for two decades now. That’s why it is a hollow shell of what it could be with the issues I listed above. That’s why we get so many web apps that would be better for consumers as desktop apps: can’t pirate a web app, subscribing to a web app feels justifiable.
- xedrac 4y ago
  > Everyone wants buy once, updated forever software. Actually, I prefer buy never, updated forever software. Somehow free* software fills all my needs these days. I wouldn't mind paying for exceptionally good software, if it came with source code and the ability to build new versions of it.
  - fhd2 4y ago
    Didn't downvote you, but this is essentially why I have no desire to build anything for programmers - unless I happen to need it for myself, then I casually open source it (rarely actively maintained as soon as I stop needing it). I go to _fantastic_ lengths to not pay for software, to mostly use software I could theoretically contribute to, or even to not have to deal with learning new tools. I even built my own accounting system (based on Ledger though). We're an insanely tough crowd to monetise, I suppose. At least some of us. Meanwhile, prosumer software in other areas seems to be doing quite well, happy users, decent income for the developers and all.
    - not_the_fda 4y ago
Decabytes 4y ago
I mean there is obviously the more money component, but if the software continually receives updates every month then it's easier to justify it. The old photoshop model is difficult for most developers to pull off (having paid versions). Also it makes it challenging if you are say running a class, or doing YouTube tutorials and everyone is on various versions that might not have some of the new features. I wonder if there is a happy medium where you can buy it, and then if a couple years later the software improves a bunch you can upgrade at a discounted price tiered to how many years it's been since you updated. I.E if it's 1 year is a 90% discount, 2 years a 80% discount, 3 years 70% discount etc. What do people think of this model?
mrozbarry 4y ago
I think it would be great to have two streams. Purchase a specific X.Y.* version, revision updates for free, and purchase other updates, OR subscribe at a much lower cost monthly to get all updates for any version. Just like JetBrains, if you stop the subscription, you keep what you have.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
hn_user2 4y ago
Agreed. I have put a hard stop on subscribing to any software. Even Jetbrain's products, I'll just purchase outright every few years to get updates. All those subscriptions add up. And when I buy a product I expect to use it for a very long time (decade +). If I add up those subscription fees it feels incredibly expensive. I have successfully weened myself off of all my software subscriptions. On a yearly basis it was costing me $1000+ for software. At this point it doesn't matter how good of software it is, I'm moving on if it doesn't have a purchase or lifetime option.

What's with every paid software product being a monthly subscription now? I just wanna buy and forget, not be reminded of it every month on my credit card statement.

stewartlynch8 4y ago

I understand the resistance to a monthly subscription, but it's the only way I can continue to work on 10x. I've been working on 10x for 6 years now, and even with the generous support from the beta subscribers I can't go on indefinitely like this. Hopefully the subscription will seem worth it with all of the bug fixes and features that are planned. I will continue uploading new versions regularly, as I have been doing: https://10xeditor.com/versions.htm https://10xeditor.com/versions.htm

Gys 4y ago

You do not want updates that solve bugs? Some support in case you have questions or problems? Maybe also some new features (usually the word changes and also your experience and expectations)?

zbrozek 4y ago
I want low-bug-density software I buy once and don't receive updates for until I pay again.
- aix1 4y ago
  Exactly this, thank you for articulating it so well.
- wnkrshm 4y ago
  We should pay for features not for fixes
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- someguydave 4y ago
  Unfortunately very few are willing to pay a high price up front for quality software.
berkle4455 4y ago
If I paid for a fully working product, fixes should be included, similar to how vehicle oems issue recalls and provide a warranty/guarantee.
- have_faith 4y ago
  Am I right that the Sketch app used to work like this? just looked at their website and only see a subscription offered.
  - junon 4y ago
    It's because nobody complained when software moved toward subscription models.
ltbarcly3 4y ago
Somehow software vendors were able to accomplish 2 things during the last 4 decades: 1. Ship software, including free updates for the current version to fix bugs, without any fees beyond the purchase price. 2. Become the richest companies in the world, by far, to the point it's not even close. So the idea that they need subscriptions so they can 'afford' to fix bugs is ridiculous. Also, paying the subscription isn't a warranty, maybe they collect my money and don't fix my bugs.
- bogwog 4y ago
  They didn't become the richest companies in the world by selling software without a subscription, they did it by illegally suppressing competition without any repercussions (among other things)
  - someguydave 4y ago
    Agreed, when I think of "rich software companies" they all either had monopolies or were able to monopolize a significant network or "mindshare".
- zozbot234 4y ago
  The free updates don't last indefinitely, generally you still have to pay for "extended" support.
  - rightbyte 4y ago
    If you have happily used some software for say 6 years, it is no problem if the vendor stops fixing bugs in it. It already works. SaaS and subscriptions is mainly a way to control the users and milk them for money.
yeputons 4y ago
I want these much less than I want the ability to run the software without the danger of a developer disabling access on a whim. Happened too many times already, including to me personally. A standard example: games.
heavenlyblue 4y ago
I don't want to finance their project managers shipping new "social" features and useless functionality that I am not paying them for.
nurettin 4y ago
Bugs should be solved because the author made mistakes in software that they sold, and are in the process of actively selling. Not because I have a subscription. Features should be added as addons that I may or may not purchase. Support should be optional.
- TheArcane 4y ago
  Exactly, just like a game on Steam or PS5
GuB-42 4y ago
Yes, and don't mind paying for these. But I also want the software I buy to keep working as well as they did the day I bought them. I don't expect the developer to fix all bugs forever without any additional payment, even less add features, but I'd rather not have a kill switch, which for a text editor is what subscriptions are. Many software vendors (ex: Jetbrains) offer renewable permanent licences that pays for maintenance without the kill switch. Sublime Text, which is possibly 10x most direct competitor now has a permanent license with 3 years of updates, which can be considered a subscription (you have to pay every 3 years for updates), but if you stop, your software won't break.

andsoitis 4y ago

I’m fine with software subscriptions (fixes, upgrades, customer support, etc.), but subscribing for something that’s still in development (this case) is harder for me to swallow, in principle. On the other hand, it is very little money and you can cancel your subscription at any time so it keeps the developer honest (focus to make the product better and reach 1.0). What I’m most surprised by is that Visual Studio isn’t more than adequate. What does Microsoft use internally?

yellow_lead 4y ago

> There is no need to pay for a license while 10x is in Beta, you are free to use 10x for whatever you like. Even if you don't become a supporter you can still give feedback and suggestions using the contact form. Your feedback is just as valuable to me and will help to make 10x the best editor possible. https://10xeditor.com/support_10x.htm https://10xeditor.com/support_10x.htm

karaterobot 4y ago

They should call it 12x. I'm at the point where I just don't do these small monthly subscriptions anymore. I'd stop short of saying it's predatory. More like it's insulting. The smaller the payment, the more like I feel they're counting on me forgetting I'm paying them, or not wanting to go through the cancellation process.

charcircuit 4y ago

It provides an incentive to keep shipping value to your existing users as opposed to trying to solely grow the size of the userbase since only new users give you money.

witx 4y ago

I actively dislike the subscription model as well and it's permeating into software products unfortunately. With this said I actually like Jetbrains' model where you pay something like a subscription but after 12 installments you get to keep the version you've paid for, even if you discontinue the subscription. If you prefer you can pay the full price upfront and you get the same result.

neomantra 4y ago

While I understand that sentiment, this appears to be a product from an indie developer. In that regard, it could fit the model of Patreon/OnlyFans rather than Adobe Creative Cloud and Office365. I actually hope more indie developers do this -- and complement it with live-coding the product development and other neat perks. If it reaches critical mass beyond "fans" and becomes major-version-based sales, then early supporters could get large discounts. Biggest downside seems to be if the software becomes End-of-Life and End-Of-Access suddenly, for whatever reason, and my workflow is disrupted. Some Open Source Parachute would be cool -- over time, we are all affected by dropped software products, by developers big and small.

corysama 4y ago

I’ve never worked on indie desktop software, but I’ve heard the same story repeated here for over a decade by those who have: Everyone wants buy once, updated forever software. But, they don’t want to pay for it. Usually they think a fair, up-front price is less than they’d pay month-to-month as a subscription for a year. And, then 80+% of them will only buy when there is a big sale cutting that price to a fraction. And, even when you have a good product at a good price, your sales plummet every time the crack for your DRM gets updated. So, you have to push frivolous updates that mainly exist to keep your DRM ahead of the crackers. Buy once works great for consumers. And, has worked great for a handful of products. But, commercial desktop software has been an excessively difficult market for two decades now. That’s why it is a hollow shell of what it could be with the issues I listed above. That’s why we get so many web apps that would be better for consumers as desktop apps: can’t pirate a web app, subscribing to a web app feels justifiable.

xedrac 4y ago
> Everyone wants buy once, updated forever software. Actually, I prefer buy never, updated forever software. Somehow free* software fills all my needs these days. I wouldn't mind paying for exceptionally good software, if it came with source code and the ability to build new versions of it.
- fhd2 4y ago
  Didn't downvote you, but this is essentially why I have no desire to build anything for programmers - unless I happen to need it for myself, then I casually open source it (rarely actively maintained as soon as I stop needing it). I go to _fantastic_ lengths to not pay for software, to mostly use software I could theoretically contribute to, or even to not have to deal with learning new tools. I even built my own accounting system (based on Ledger though). We're an insanely tough crowd to monetise, I suppose. At least some of us. Meanwhile, prosumer software in other areas seems to be doing quite well, happy users, decent income for the developers and all.
  - not_the_fda 4y ago

Decabytes 4y ago

I mean there is obviously the more money component, but if the software continually receives updates every month then it's easier to justify it. The old photoshop model is difficult for most developers to pull off (having paid versions). Also it makes it challenging if you are say running a class, or doing YouTube tutorials and everyone is on various versions that might not have some of the new features. I wonder if there is a happy medium where you can buy it, and then if a couple years later the software improves a bunch you can upgrade at a discounted price tiered to how many years it's been since you updated. I.E if it's 1 year is a 90% discount, 2 years a 80% discount, 3 years 70% discount etc. What do people think of this model?

mrozbarry 4y ago

I think it would be great to have two streams. Purchase a specific X.Y.* version, revision updates for free, and purchase other updates, OR subscribe at a much lower cost monthly to get all updates for any version. Just like JetBrains, if you stop the subscription, you keep what you have.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

hn_user2 4y ago

Agreed. I have put a hard stop on subscribing to any software. Even Jetbrain's products, I'll just purchase outright every few years to get updates. All those subscriptions add up. And when I buy a product I expect to use it for a very long time (decade +). If I add up those subscription fees it feels incredibly expensive. I have successfully weened myself off of all my software subscriptions. On a yearly basis it was costing me $1000+ for software. At this point it doesn't matter how good of software it is, I'm moving on if it doesn't have a purchase or lifetime option.