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I had this exact experience as well. Returning to my career was strange. People were half glad to hear that I prioritized my family, and half disconcerted that

I had this exact experience as well. Returning to my career was strange. People were half glad to hear that I prioritized my family, and half disconcerted that I’d set my career aside. Our culture wants men to be extremely productive and committed to wealth generation. Women are increasingly treated this way too though. Women were shunned for choosing their career. Now if they choose family, their career still suffers. How can they win? At least men have a clear expectation from society. In many parts of North America, it’s increasingly true that women don’t have the freedom not to work. We have a serious problem here. It doesn’t strike me as a problem of gender roles so much as cultural priorities (perhaps at the core of this is the pursuit of wealth and growth over focusing on family). I was as capable as my wife in caring for our son so that wasn’t a problem. The problem was that anyone ever saw something wrong with that picture, I suppose. We also took an enormous financial hit in order for her to continue working, because there was a very real concern than her career would suffer beyond repair if she took off, but I’d presumably be able to return fairly easily with my decade or so of software development experience. This happily turned out to be true. But still, what a strange situation to have to navigate.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
This could somewhat be solved by regulation You get around 1 year of parental leave here in my country - it starts 28 days before expected birth for the mother and lasts for 105 days, the father also gets 30 days, but 15 have to be used during the parental leave, and the other 15 in the next few years. After the 105 days of "mothers leave" are over, both parents get 260 days to divide between themselves however they want). The norm is for the mother to take the full 260 days, and the father goes to work. On one hand, fathers complain because they're not with their kids, on the other side, usually feminists complain about women losing a year of their carrers (because women still have a choice to go to work and let the dad use those 260 days), and hiring a could-be-soon-pregnant woman is a risk, because she might be gone for a year. If we atleast split the 260 evenly, and made it mandatory for both parents to be atleast a bit more equally absent from work, that would solve a lot... but since women would lose the 260 day, and there's no money for both parents to be absent from work, this won't ever be implemented.
beyond_based 4y ago
[flagged]
- freshpots 4y ago
  Is this a serious reply? Do you believe what you said here?
  - beyond_based 4y ago
    Entirely serious. It’s short to keep it to a point and so some nuance is missing, but there you have it. I don’t mind the flagging - I don’t expect anything more from people unwilling to take a look at things objectively.
    - freshpots 4y ago
      I didn't flag it, but I am not even remotely surprised that it was. You have an incredibly toxic, misogynistic, and incel-based worldview that is very unhealthy. Virtually every ill you stated was the fault of women, even consumerism and violence. How many women were mass shooters again? Started wars? It is frightening that you really think that way, and I worry for those in your orbit after hearing that you are entirely serious.
      - beyond_based 4y ago
        You have to look at it from a certain perspective. It’s not just misogynist. It’s also misandrist. I don’t just blame women, I blame the men for failing to uphold society to a higher moral standard and letting petty things like envy, greed, and selfishness take over them, at which point a woman can easily further manipulate them to do their bidding. Our increasingly decadent society wouldn’t be so if men realized they hold the keys to building and maintaining prosperous societies, and can refuse the corrupt inclinations of women hellbent on ruining it all for materialistic, personal gain. And that of other men who desire power and money and materialistic things for the sad approval of women. The reason why I don’t mind the flagging and the downvotes is because I don’t expect a single individual on HN to publicly agree with me. Anecdotally and privately, women and men have both echoed these things to me in a slightly more nuanced, forgiving tone. My take is more brazen, and unpalatable for this site and many others. Personally, I don’t subscribe to the manosphere, MRAs, MGTOWs, the Andrew Tates or anyone inbetween. These are all symptoms of a societal illness.
chasd00 4y ago
> Women were shunned for choosing their career in my experience raising two kids women are much more looked down on for choosing family over career. My wife wanted to be a stay-at-home mom but many of her friends, and especially online, thought she was "too good for that" with some even being hostile to the very concept. If a woman has an established career and then chooses to be a stay-at-home mom she's likely to pay a heavy price socially.
- opportune 4y ago
  Depends heavily on your social group. If your social group are all college educated liberals then I’d expect this. If they were conservative MRS degree holders or lower income they’d likely envy your wife
- the_gipsy 4y ago
  And if she had picked career, she would also have payed that price. Men only pay it when choosing stay-at-home dads.
- rapind 4y ago
  Similar experience for us. Wife was basically surrounded by nannies and there wasn’t a ton of community support, at least not nearly as much as there used to be for my mother. I assume this varies based on location (not all communities can afford nannies). It’s just economics IMO. It’s mostly double income now.
- hallway_monitor 4y ago
  It's literally insane that people would consider working at a company to be more important than someone raising their own children instead of paying someone else to raise them for most of the day. I'm thankful the mother of my children could stay at home with them while I worked.
  - lukebitts 4y ago
    By your own admission you chose work instead of raising your own children. Why is that different?
mattgreenrocks 4y ago
> People were half glad to hear that I prioritized my family, and half disconcerted that I’d set my career aside. People don't really know what to do when you demonstrate you don't have total devotion to an organization. Even if it's for a "higher calling," in the case of care, it still feels like they see it as not fully devoted. There's also this weird undercurrent that your career must be the focal point at all times in your life and that you must be constantly growing and fulfilled in it. > In many parts of North America, it’s increasingly true that women don’t have the freedom not to work. Yeah, this is really gross. And the norms are pushed by those who made the choice to not have a family, or to outsource/ignore theirs. In effect, it becomes a game of, "who can sacrifice the most to capitalism?" And games like that favor those who are broken/not smart enough to throw more of their lives away. > Our culture wants men to be extremely productive and committed to wealth generation. This drive objectifies men, and men are smart enough to realize they can't fight it, so they instead try to channel it. But it's not at all the same as an intrinsic motivation, it's an extrinsic threat of sorts. It dehumanizes men to see themselves primarily as providers rather than people. This makes it easier to prioritize their career at the expense of other things.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

This could somewhat be solved by regulation You get around 1 year of parental leave here in my country - it starts 28 days before expected birth for the mother and lasts for 105 days, the father also gets 30 days, but 15 have to be used during the parental leave, and the other 15 in the next few years. After the 105 days of "mothers leave" are over, both parents get 260 days to divide between themselves however they want). The norm is for the mother to take the full 260 days, and the father goes to work. On one hand, fathers complain because they're not with their kids, on the other side, usually feminists complain about women losing a year of their carrers (because women still have a choice to go to work and let the dad use those 260 days), and hiring a could-be-soon-pregnant woman is a risk, because she might be gone for a year. If we atleast split the 260 evenly, and made it mandatory for both parents to be atleast a bit more equally absent from work, that would solve a lot... but since women would lose the 260 day, and there's no money for both parents to be absent from work, this won't ever be implemented.

beyond_based 4y ago

[flagged]

freshpots 4y ago
Is this a serious reply? Do you believe what you said here?
- beyond_based 4y ago
  Entirely serious. It’s short to keep it to a point and so some nuance is missing, but there you have it. I don’t mind the flagging - I don’t expect anything more from people unwilling to take a look at things objectively.
  - freshpots 4y ago
    I didn't flag it, but I am not even remotely surprised that it was. You have an incredibly toxic, misogynistic, and incel-based worldview that is very unhealthy. Virtually every ill you stated was the fault of women, even consumerism and violence. How many women were mass shooters again? Started wars? It is frightening that you really think that way, and I worry for those in your orbit after hearing that you are entirely serious.
    - beyond_based 4y ago
      You have to look at it from a certain perspective. It’s not just misogynist. It’s also misandrist. I don’t just blame women, I blame the men for failing to uphold society to a higher moral standard and letting petty things like envy, greed, and selfishness take over them, at which point a woman can easily further manipulate them to do their bidding. Our increasingly decadent society wouldn’t be so if men realized they hold the keys to building and maintaining prosperous societies, and can refuse the corrupt inclinations of women hellbent on ruining it all for materialistic, personal gain. And that of other men who desire power and money and materialistic things for the sad approval of women. The reason why I don’t mind the flagging and the downvotes is because I don’t expect a single individual on HN to publicly agree with me. Anecdotally and privately, women and men have both echoed these things to me in a slightly more nuanced, forgiving tone. My take is more brazen, and unpalatable for this site and many others. Personally, I don’t subscribe to the manosphere, MRAs, MGTOWs, the Andrew Tates or anyone inbetween. These are all symptoms of a societal illness.

chasd00 4y ago

> Women were shunned for choosing their career in my experience raising two kids women are much more looked down on for choosing family over career. My wife wanted to be a stay-at-home mom but many of her friends, and especially online, thought she was "too good for that" with some even being hostile to the very concept. If a woman has an established career and then chooses to be a stay-at-home mom she's likely to pay a heavy price socially.

opportune 4y ago
Depends heavily on your social group. If your social group are all college educated liberals then I’d expect this. If they were conservative MRS degree holders or lower income they’d likely envy your wife
the_gipsy 4y ago
And if she had picked career, she would also have payed that price. Men only pay it when choosing stay-at-home dads.
rapind 4y ago
Similar experience for us. Wife was basically surrounded by nannies and there wasn’t a ton of community support, at least not nearly as much as there used to be for my mother. I assume this varies based on location (not all communities can afford nannies). It’s just economics IMO. It’s mostly double income now.
hallway_monitor 4y ago
It's literally insane that people would consider working at a company to be more important than someone raising their own children instead of paying someone else to raise them for most of the day. I'm thankful the mother of my children could stay at home with them while I worked.
- lukebitts 4y ago
  By your own admission you chose work instead of raising your own children. Why is that different?

mattgreenrocks 4y ago

> People were half glad to hear that I prioritized my family, and half disconcerted that I’d set my career aside. People don't really know what to do when you demonstrate you don't have total devotion to an organization. Even if it's for a "higher calling," in the case of care, it still feels like they see it as not fully devoted. There's also this weird undercurrent that your career must be the focal point at all times in your life and that you must be constantly growing and fulfilled in it. > In many parts of North America, it’s increasingly true that women don’t have the freedom not to work. Yeah, this is really gross. And the norms are pushed by those who made the choice to not have a family, or to outsource/ignore theirs. In effect, it becomes a game of, "who can sacrifice the most to capitalism?" And games like that favor those who are broken/not smart enough to throw more of their lives away. > Our culture wants men to be extremely productive and committed to wealth generation. This drive objectifies men, and men are smart enough to realize they can't fight it, so they instead try to channel it. But it's not at all the same as an intrinsic motivation, it's an extrinsic threat of sorts. It dehumanizes men to see themselves primarily as providers rather than people. This makes it easier to prioritize their career at the expense of other things.