9 ms·

In lieu of any particular review I’m submitting the Wikipedia page. I was unemployed for most of the Great Recession and can empathize with much of this book.

by ianai 4y ago

In lieu of any particular review I’m submitting the Wikipedia page. I was unemployed for most of the Great Recession and can empathize with much of this book. I also just remember the “tragedy of my twenties” realizing society had basically no interest in me. Despite a math degree and IT/programming experience. Then the myriad people I’ve interacted with in the last decade plus who are in this situation. Luckily I now have good paying career. But I fear a society that leaves so many cold.

fullshark 4y ago
Society (meaning gov't programs) doesn't care about you beyond your economic output. We offshored countless unskilled labor jobs that men would traditionally take in America and told them they needed to take out crippling loans in order to get knowledge worker skills that our industry is working overtime to make obsolete within 5-10 years anyway. Many just are giving up, they don't see an opportunity here, they just are going to play video games, take drugs, and accomplish nothing with their lives.
- ianai 4y ago
  Actually, society varies. But social contract theory does point out that the contract goes both ways. And that society works, in the interest of self sustenance, by making the individual lives better than they would be outside of society. Otherwise a society won’t last long or diminish with time. Progress could be as simple as introducing or better funding employment programs. It’d clearly really help if there was some clearinghouse type organization informing people about labor market opportunities based on the individual characteristics. The clearinghouse could seek information directly from employers as to preferences/priorities/etc. But also some people just cannot function in society without some kind of back support. It can’t be a social optimization to leave such people to homelessness.
  - nradov 4y ago
    The Bureau of Labor Statistics publishes data on current and predicted future labor market opportunities. https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/occupations-most-job-growth.htm https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/occupations-most-job-growth.h...
  - lazide 4y ago
    I’m not sure what your point is here. You seem to be saying ‘society will eventually collapse unless x happens’, but the parent was saying ‘x doesn’t seem to be happening in my experience’?
adversaryIdiot 4y ago
man I am so happy i heard someone else say it too. I seriously felt like "society had no interest in me". Not being able to find a job and getting no matches on things like tinder left me devastated. I am on anti depressants and fear that time to this day.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  > I seriously felt like "society had no interest in me". I'm pretty sure society is not obligated to have an interest in you (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth however). I think you become truly actualized only when you decide what it is you want, what you imagine for yourself. If what you want is in conflict with what society wants of you, you have to decide then whether it is important enough to you to take the road less travelled. Watching biographies of various artistic people ("The Art Life" about David Lynch comes to mind, also "Crumb") it's clear that some people are just "a certain way" and will choose to live that way - society be damned. (Of course, that there are documentaries about these luminaries tells you that a few at least have found societal acceptance after all.)
  - drc500free 4y ago
    I found this video, "Edgelord Movies and the Men who Love Them " [1] by sociologist F.D Signifier, to be a particularly interesting exploration of this specific disappointment. His thesis is that young white men are more attracted to edgelord movies like Joker, Falling Down, American Psycho, or Fight Club that portray a sudden violent break from social norms because they start with an elevated expectation of how society will cater to them that gets shattered one day. The idea of a protagonist that lashes out and punishes "the system" through stochastic violence is very attractive. Young non-white men are less likely to be under the impression that society is looking out for them in the first place, so their choice of anti-social entertainment looks very different. It's more about detachment and the use of violence for personal enrichment because the social system doesn't matter. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_--JOjsTHjo&t=361s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_--JOjsTHjo&t=361s
    - 4y ago
Mezzie 4y ago
> I also just remember the “tragedy of my twenties” realizing society had basically no interest in me. Female, but same hat and I empathize. In my case, I'm a lesbian who ended up with MS, so like with your average straight guy, my worth in society is pretty much based on my work life/career. I also share the jealousy a lot of straight men have for straight/bi women being more able to 'opt out'. It's not a rational feeling, but it's there. > But I fear a society that leaves so many cold. Me too. We can only expect people to beat themselves up for so long before some of that rage and despair is turned outward, contributing to the destabilization of society.
- LewisVerstappen 4y ago
  What is MS? Masters degree? Microsoft?
  - Centigonal 4y ago
    Multiple Sclerosis, I think
  - Mezzie 4y ago
    Yeah, Multiple Sclerosis. Though I do have a master's degree, but it's not an MS funnily enough. It matters because if we're talking biology, there aren't many people who are like 'yeah, I'm going to have the cripple carry my child!' and dating as a female with a progressive disease is not great. So from a social standpoint, I am also an 'extra' 'useless' body, like how these men tend to feel.
- P_I_Staker 4y ago
  Definitely don't look to the mental health system for help. It's designed from the ground up to use people like resources, mine them for all their value, and discard them (after some insults). I really feel for people with mental health issues and no insurance. I have insurance, but have somehow still payed thousands of dollars out of pocket, and in far worse shape. It's like they're TRYING to get people with ADHD to kill themselves. You can find countless accounts of people traumatized by this system, but they don't want to change a thing... they seem to think it's our problem just for existing. I was told to just give up on my career... nevermind that it will never matter, and the next job will just fuck me up. I can't really put into words the rage I feel against Doctors and Psychs... this is who they expect us to go to for help.
scottLobster 4y ago
Yeah it seems like there used to be a cultural value of putting people to work. Generally speaking you had to be a real fuck-up to not get a job. Maybe the jobs available weren't the best, but you could get something to pay for basic food/housing with little effort or credentialing. The attitude was, if you were a decent person and willing to work, "come by and we'll find something for you to do". Now the zeitgeist in the job market seems to be "Why should we give you the gift of this job? Speak quickly and well, lest we cast you back into the void! You are a piece of shit until proven otherwise!" Granted some of that was always around for more competitive jobs, and some fields like engineering seem relatively exempt (outside of FAANG-style interviews) due to demand, but given what I was taught to expect growing up by schools/parents vs what reality turned out to be, there's definitely been a shift.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  > Yeah it seems like there used to be a cultural value of putting people to work. Generally speaking you had to be a real fuck-up to not get a job. Maybe the jobs available weren't the best, but you could get something to pay for basic food/housing with little effort or credentialing. The attitude was, if you were a decent person and willing to work, "come by and we'll find something for you to do". This might be a local thing, but here (central europe, balkans), there are currently enough jobs for basically anyone, even shitty jobs for really uneducated and slightly incompetent people and up to great jobs. The problem I see most is housing... "society" expects you to get a job, get a wife, settle down, make 1, 2, 3 kids, have a dog etc. You've got a good enough job, average pay... want to move out? Still expect half (or even more) of the paycheck to go for rent. Want to buy a nice three bedroom apartment in the capital (nothing luxurious, just something normal, in a socialist apartment building, a few kilometers outside of city center)? That'll be 250-300 monthly paychecks. The boomers got their apartments or built their houses during socialist times, and now we have an extreme case of NIMBYism everywhere, even rural areas. This means that a lot of young people stay at home... and if you're at home, you have a room, a bed and food... why bother working more than bare minimum (to cover entertainment costs, parties, drugs,...) if it's almost impossible to move out and still live normally.
- nradov 4y ago
cjohnson318 4y ago
> I also just remember the “tragedy of my twenties” realizing society had basically no interest in me. For me it was wallowing in grad school for five years after graduating college in 2007 and not being able to find any entry level positions with a math degree due to the housing crisis, and the relative uselessness of an undergrad math degree, without useful experience in anything else. I remember the constant manic hum of "when am I going to start making real money, instead of pulling out more loans each year?". Fortunately, I learned to program during that time and eventually got my first job writing Python for a small civil engineering start-up.

by ianai 4y ago

fullshark 4y ago

Society (meaning gov't programs) doesn't care about you beyond your economic output. We offshored countless unskilled labor jobs that men would traditionally take in America and told them they needed to take out crippling loans in order to get knowledge worker skills that our industry is working overtime to make obsolete within 5-10 years anyway. Many just are giving up, they don't see an opportunity here, they just are going to play video games, take drugs, and accomplish nothing with their lives.

ianai 4y ago
Actually, society varies. But social contract theory does point out that the contract goes both ways. And that society works, in the interest of self sustenance, by making the individual lives better than they would be outside of society. Otherwise a society won’t last long or diminish with time. Progress could be as simple as introducing or better funding employment programs. It’d clearly really help if there was some clearinghouse type organization informing people about labor market opportunities based on the individual characteristics. The clearinghouse could seek information directly from employers as to preferences/priorities/etc. But also some people just cannot function in society without some kind of back support. It can’t be a social optimization to leave such people to homelessness.
- nradov 4y ago
  The Bureau of Labor Statistics publishes data on current and predicted future labor market opportunities. https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/occupations-most-job-growth.htm https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/occupations-most-job-growth.h...
- lazide 4y ago
  I’m not sure what your point is here. You seem to be saying ‘society will eventually collapse unless x happens’, but the parent was saying ‘x doesn’t seem to be happening in my experience’?

adversaryIdiot 4y ago

man I am so happy i heard someone else say it too. I seriously felt like "society had no interest in me". Not being able to find a job and getting no matches on things like tinder left me devastated. I am on anti depressants and fear that time to this day.

JKCalhoun 4y ago
> I seriously felt like "society had no interest in me". I'm pretty sure society is not obligated to have an interest in you (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth however). I think you become truly actualized only when you decide what it is you want, what you imagine for yourself. If what you want is in conflict with what society wants of you, you have to decide then whether it is important enough to you to take the road less travelled. Watching biographies of various artistic people ("The Art Life" about David Lynch comes to mind, also "Crumb") it's clear that some people are just "a certain way" and will choose to live that way - society be damned. (Of course, that there are documentaries about these luminaries tells you that a few at least have found societal acceptance after all.)
- drc500free 4y ago
  I found this video, "Edgelord Movies and the Men who Love Them " [1] by sociologist F.D Signifier, to be a particularly interesting exploration of this specific disappointment. His thesis is that young white men are more attracted to edgelord movies like Joker, Falling Down, American Psycho, or Fight Club that portray a sudden violent break from social norms because they start with an elevated expectation of how society will cater to them that gets shattered one day. The idea of a protagonist that lashes out and punishes "the system" through stochastic violence is very attractive. Young non-white men are less likely to be under the impression that society is looking out for them in the first place, so their choice of anti-social entertainment looks very different. It's more about detachment and the use of violence for personal enrichment because the social system doesn't matter. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_--JOjsTHjo&t=361s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_--JOjsTHjo&t=361s
  - 4y ago

Mezzie 4y ago

> I also just remember the “tragedy of my twenties” realizing society had basically no interest in me. Female, but same hat and I empathize. In my case, I'm a lesbian who ended up with MS, so like with your average straight guy, my worth in society is pretty much based on my work life/career. I also share the jealousy a lot of straight men have for straight/bi women being more able to 'opt out'. It's not a rational feeling, but it's there. > But I fear a society that leaves so many cold. Me too. We can only expect people to beat themselves up for so long before some of that rage and despair is turned outward, contributing to the destabilization of society.

LewisVerstappen 4y ago
What is MS? Masters degree? Microsoft?
- Centigonal 4y ago
  Multiple Sclerosis, I think
- Mezzie 4y ago
  Yeah, Multiple Sclerosis. Though I do have a master's degree, but it's not an MS funnily enough. It matters because if we're talking biology, there aren't many people who are like 'yeah, I'm going to have the cripple carry my child!' and dating as a female with a progressive disease is not great. So from a social standpoint, I am also an 'extra' 'useless' body, like how these men tend to feel.
P_I_Staker 4y ago
Definitely don't look to the mental health system for help. It's designed from the ground up to use people like resources, mine them for all their value, and discard them (after some insults). I really feel for people with mental health issues and no insurance. I have insurance, but have somehow still payed thousands of dollars out of pocket, and in far worse shape. It's like they're TRYING to get people with ADHD to kill themselves. You can find countless accounts of people traumatized by this system, but they don't want to change a thing... they seem to think it's our problem just for existing. I was told to just give up on my career... nevermind that it will never matter, and the next job will just fuck me up. I can't really put into words the rage I feel against Doctors and Psychs... this is who they expect us to go to for help.

scottLobster 4y ago

Yeah it seems like there used to be a cultural value of putting people to work. Generally speaking you had to be a real fuck-up to not get a job. Maybe the jobs available weren't the best, but you could get something to pay for basic food/housing with little effort or credentialing. The attitude was, if you were a decent person and willing to work, "come by and we'll find something for you to do". Now the zeitgeist in the job market seems to be "Why should we give you the gift of this job? Speak quickly and well, lest we cast you back into the void! You are a piece of shit until proven otherwise!" Granted some of that was always around for more competitive jobs, and some fields like engineering seem relatively exempt (outside of FAANG-style interviews) due to demand, but given what I was taught to expect growing up by schools/parents vs what reality turned out to be, there's definitely been a shift.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
> Yeah it seems like there used to be a cultural value of putting people to work. Generally speaking you had to be a real fuck-up to not get a job. Maybe the jobs available weren't the best, but you could get something to pay for basic food/housing with little effort or credentialing. The attitude was, if you were a decent person and willing to work, "come by and we'll find something for you to do". This might be a local thing, but here (central europe, balkans), there are currently enough jobs for basically anyone, even shitty jobs for really uneducated and slightly incompetent people and up to great jobs. The problem I see most is housing... "society" expects you to get a job, get a wife, settle down, make 1, 2, 3 kids, have a dog etc. You've got a good enough job, average pay... want to move out? Still expect half (or even more) of the paycheck to go for rent. Want to buy a nice three bedroom apartment in the capital (nothing luxurious, just something normal, in a socialist apartment building, a few kilometers outside of city center)? That'll be 250-300 monthly paychecks. The boomers got their apartments or built their houses during socialist times, and now we have an extreme case of NIMBYism everywhere, even rural areas. This means that a lot of young people stay at home... and if you're at home, you have a room, a bed and food... why bother working more than bare minimum (to cover entertainment costs, parties, drugs,...) if it's almost impossible to move out and still live normally.
nradov 4y ago

cjohnson318 4y ago

> I also just remember the “tragedy of my twenties” realizing society had basically no interest in me. For me it was wallowing in grad school for five years after graduating college in 2007 and not being able to find any entry level positions with a math degree due to the housing crisis, and the relative uselessness of an undergrad math degree, without useful experience in anything else. I remember the constant manic hum of "when am I going to start making real money, instead of pulling out more loans each year?". Fortunately, I learned to program during that time and eventually got my first job writing Python for a small civil engineering start-up.