4 ms·

Still 100x less than a typical US credit card fee.

raverbashing 4y ago
Add on top of that handling costs, "attrition" costs (fake notes, wrong change, theft, etc), etc
bonzini 4y ago
100x less than Amex, others should be much cheaper (don't know about the US but flat monthly fees are common in Europe). Also the fee does not include the time and risk of bringing cash to the bank.
- zinekeller 4y ago
  > don't know about the US but flat monthly fees are common in Europe It's definitely still percentages, not a flat fee, and it's not limited to 0.3 percent which is applicable to you, it's much, much higher even in a debit transaction. This is why some small shops only accepts cash.
  - hocuspocus 4y ago
    Define much. For big businesses, PSPs are well under 1% for both debit and credit cards, as long as said cards are issued in the EEA. With interchange capped at 0.2/0.3 respectively and scheme fees a little over 0.1, PSPs are can be profitable at 0.6~0.7%, a fraction of the situation in other regions, especially the US.
    - kuschku 4y ago
      If you're a regular business, regardless of if you're using Zettle, SumUp, Sparkasse or Deutsche Bank for payment handling, you'll pay 0.125% for girocard, 0.2% for cash, and 0.9 to 1.9% for a mix of debit and credit cards. It's absolutely ridiculous, and MasterCard's attempt to destroy girocard by forcing banks to choose one or the other is an obvious cash grab to destroy competition.
      - xattt 4y ago
        > It's absolutely ridiculous, and MasterCard's attempt to destroy girocard by forcing banks to choose one or the other is an obvious cash grab to destroy competition. I think there’s a similar situation happening in Canada where multiple big banks are adding Visa Debit to their cards (in addition to Interac) and boiling the frog on phasing out the Interac System.
      - hocuspocus 4y ago
        SumUp and Zettle are typically used by small businesses, not big ones, and even in this space, there's competition. [1] I don't believe MasterCard and Visa are forcing anyone's hand, but they obviously give better deals to card issuers that don't co-brand their card with the domestic payment network. The scheme fee is the smallest part of the overall transaction fee, in the end it's mostly banks that profit from ditching Girocard and the like. These networks cannot survive on their own since people need a payment card that works in neighboring countries. The EU should really push EPI [2] but I belive the initiative has stalled. Empsa [3] is also promising, but in practice the transaction fees aren't cheaper than using a MasterCard or Visa debit card, at least for now. 1. for instance https://www.stancer.com https://www.stancer.com 2. https://www.epicompany.eu https://www.epicompany.eu 3. https://empsa.org https://empsa.org
        kuschku 4y ago
        > I don't believe MasterCard and Visa are forcing anyone's hand, but they obviously give better deals to card issuers that don't co-brand their card with the domestic payment network. MasterCard has banned any and all co-branding with domestic payment networks, starting 2023-01-01. Which is why many banks are now forced to abandon Girocard, or are switching to Visa.
        hocuspocus 4y ago
        Do you have a source? Is it specific to Germany? Because that doesn't seem true everywhere, see in France for instance: https://www.fortuneo.fr/compte-bancaire/carte-gold-mastercard https://www.fortuneo.fr/compte-bancaire/carte-gold-mastercar... It's still co-branded CB.
    - zinekeller 4y ago
      Sorry, I've meant the US' interchange rate, not EU's. There are no flat rates (or sometimes it's a floor - you'll be charged a flat $XX even if you processed <XXX transactions (or even not have a transaction) weekly).
- Denvercoder9 4y ago
  > don't know about the US but flat monthly fees are common in Europe That's what the consumer pays; but businesses also have to pay a certain percentage of each transaction (usually 1-2% iirc) made with a creditcard.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kasey_junk 4y ago
Thats purely the banking fee. Cash handling costs (everything from security to transport to audit) adds up to. Depending on the size of the business and their transaction mix it is extremely common for retailers to prefer credit cards to cash as they require less costs.
- matthewdgreen 4y ago
  It's not really a natural decision. Card processors historically went to a lot of trouble to prohibit retailers from offering different prices for cash and credit (excepting gas stations.) Even today, after a Federal law prohibited the practice, card networks still make this challenging. https://www.pymnts.com/visa/2018/non-compliant-cash-discount-card-fees/ https://www.pymnts.com/visa/2018/non-compliant-cash-discount...
  - kasey_junk 4y ago
    I don’t think that’s responsive to what I’m saying. There are merchants where the all in costs of cash is more expensive than their equivalent card costs. Those merchants wouldn’t want to give a cash discount, quite the opposite they’d want to give a card discount or prohibit cash transactions (though most would rather have the sale vs not so that is more rare).
    - matthewdgreen 4y ago
      I don't disagree with you that there are such merchants. I'm just wondering whether that case would be as common in a world where card networks hadn't put their thumb on the scale. Merchant cash handling costs will be (proportionally) higher when cash payments are rare. And that situation is more likely in a world where card networks have conspired to ensure that customers receive little benefit from paying in cash, and just don't carry it anymore.

Add on top of that handling costs, "attrition" costs (fake notes, wrong change, theft, etc), etc

100x less than Amex, others should be much cheaper (don't know about the US but flat monthly fees are common in Europe). Also the fee does not include the time and risk of bringing cash to the bank.

zinekeller 4y ago
> don't know about the US but flat monthly fees are common in Europe It's definitely still percentages, not a flat fee, and it's not limited to 0.3 percent which is applicable to you, it's much, much higher even in a debit transaction. This is why some small shops only accepts cash.
- hocuspocus 4y ago
  Define much. For big businesses, PSPs are well under 1% for both debit and credit cards, as long as said cards are issued in the EEA. With interchange capped at 0.2/0.3 respectively and scheme fees a little over 0.1, PSPs are can be profitable at 0.6~0.7%, a fraction of the situation in other regions, especially the US.
  - kuschku 4y ago
    If you're a regular business, regardless of if you're using Zettle, SumUp, Sparkasse or Deutsche Bank for payment handling, you'll pay 0.125% for girocard, 0.2% for cash, and 0.9 to 1.9% for a mix of debit and credit cards. It's absolutely ridiculous, and MasterCard's attempt to destroy girocard by forcing banks to choose one or the other is an obvious cash grab to destroy competition.
    - xattt 4y ago
      > It's absolutely ridiculous, and MasterCard's attempt to destroy girocard by forcing banks to choose one or the other is an obvious cash grab to destroy competition. I think there’s a similar situation happening in Canada where multiple big banks are adding Visa Debit to their cards (in addition to Interac) and boiling the frog on phasing out the Interac System.
    - hocuspocus 4y ago
      SumUp and Zettle are typically used by small businesses, not big ones, and even in this space, there's competition. [1] I don't believe MasterCard and Visa are forcing anyone's hand, but they obviously give better deals to card issuers that don't co-brand their card with the domestic payment network. The scheme fee is the smallest part of the overall transaction fee, in the end it's mostly banks that profit from ditching Girocard and the like. These networks cannot survive on their own since people need a payment card that works in neighboring countries. The EU should really push EPI [2] but I belive the initiative has stalled. Empsa [3] is also promising, but in practice the transaction fees aren't cheaper than using a MasterCard or Visa debit card, at least for now. 1. for instance https://www.stancer.com https://www.stancer.com 2. https://www.epicompany.eu https://www.epicompany.eu 3. https://empsa.org https://empsa.org
      - kuschku 4y ago
        > I don't believe MasterCard and Visa are forcing anyone's hand, but they obviously give better deals to card issuers that don't co-brand their card with the domestic payment network. MasterCard has banned any and all co-branding with domestic payment networks, starting 2023-01-01. Which is why many banks are now forced to abandon Girocard, or are switching to Visa.
        hocuspocus 4y ago
        Do you have a source? Is it specific to Germany? Because that doesn't seem true everywhere, see in France for instance: https://www.fortuneo.fr/compte-bancaire/carte-gold-mastercard https://www.fortuneo.fr/compte-bancaire/carte-gold-mastercar... It's still co-branded CB.
  - zinekeller 4y ago
    Sorry, I've meant the US' interchange rate, not EU's. There are no flat rates (or sometimes it's a floor - you'll be charged a flat $XX even if you processed <XXX transactions (or even not have a transaction) weekly).
Denvercoder9 4y ago
> don't know about the US but flat monthly fees are common in Europe That's what the consumer pays; but businesses also have to pay a certain percentage of each transaction (usually 1-2% iirc) made with a creditcard.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

kasey_junk 4y ago

Thats purely the banking fee. Cash handling costs (everything from security to transport to audit) adds up to. Depending on the size of the business and their transaction mix it is extremely common for retailers to prefer credit cards to cash as they require less costs.

matthewdgreen 4y ago
It's not really a natural decision. Card processors historically went to a lot of trouble to prohibit retailers from offering different prices for cash and credit (excepting gas stations.) Even today, after a Federal law prohibited the practice, card networks still make this challenging. https://www.pymnts.com/visa/2018/non-compliant-cash-discount-card-fees/ https://www.pymnts.com/visa/2018/non-compliant-cash-discount...
- kasey_junk 4y ago
  I don’t think that’s responsive to what I’m saying. There are merchants where the all in costs of cash is more expensive than their equivalent card costs. Those merchants wouldn’t want to give a cash discount, quite the opposite they’d want to give a card discount or prohibit cash transactions (though most would rather have the sale vs not so that is more rare).
  - matthewdgreen 4y ago
    I don't disagree with you that there are such merchants. I'm just wondering whether that case would be as common in a world where card networks hadn't put their thumb on the scale. Merchant cash handling costs will be (proportionally) higher when cash payments are rare. And that situation is more likely in a world where card networks have conspired to ensure that customers receive little benefit from paying in cash, and just don't carry it anymore.