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> have face-time, and make room for socializing. > And a little ‘How are you feeling?' goes a long way. > “When leaders make time for fun, it gives permission

> have face-time, and make room for socializing. > And a little ‘How are you feeling?' goes a long way. > “When leaders make time for fun, it gives permission for others too” Is it just me, or are others also annoyed when work is mixed with forced socialization? I don't need to have fun or get personal therapy at work. It's just work. I would rather get it done quickly and efficiently and then have more time to have fun with my family or non-work friends.

dherikb 4y ago
I'm kind like you, but the people are different and many of them really like this interactions. I just think the manager needs to understand those differences and not force the socialization for everyone. Sometimes the manager even embarrasses the people on the team that not are really into participate of some of this socializations.
- loveparade 4y ago
  I wonder if it's an age or stage of life thing. When I was younger and single I enjoyed these interactions more than I do now that I have a family and kid. I think the need for extra socializing isn't quite there anymore.
atomicnumber3 4y ago
Unfortunately, "work is other people". At least I think that's the quote. Definitely something along those lines. Less glib: I've always found the technical part of work to be by far the easiest part of my job. The computers do what they're told and when they argue with me, it's deterministic, unambiguous and consistent (at least from its perspective anyway). People are a lot more complicated, and they seldom know what they want, what to build, whether they know enough to recognize what to build, whether they know they know enough to recognize what to build, etc. they have feelings that can be hurt, friends who they want to defend, opponents they want to see suppressed. I could go on. Maybe I've somehow only worked in dreadful, dramatic hellscapes, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you? But also I think politics is what happens when more than 3 people want to work together, and so it's an inherent aspect of work. Sorry, this has been a bit rambling. My point is that, while sure you don't need to do bowling night every week, I do find that a zoom call with your teammates every other week with no agenda other than to chat is ridiculously effective. And sometimes your best work can happen after you both accidentally give and receive therapy while at work. Everyone is the main character of their own story and knowing how even the work part of all those individual main stories connect can be really useful insight.
- bookofjoe 4y ago
  "Hell is other people." —Jean Paul Sartre, "No Exit" (1944)
  - lr4444lr 4y ago
    Yeah, the humor of the OP was subtly alluding to this.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  << Maybe I've somehow only worked in dreadful, dramatic hellscapes, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you? But also I think politics is what happens when more than 3 people want to work together, and so it's an inherent aspect of work. Not at all. If anything, you are being very stoic about it from my perspective, but then maybe I only had my initial share of hellscapes ( and each new one is getting worse ). Things are getting more complicated in systems and company hierarchy. It is not always understood ( or well documented ) how those systems interact ( or even supposed to interact in theory ). Without careful navigation it is easy to miss something important, because of office politics. edit: adding missing not
luuuzeta 4y ago
I'm honestly confused what's the use of flagging in Hackernews. You're being flagged, even though you're making some interesting observations that aren't derailing the thread. Is it because the flaggers disagree with your opinions? I also don't like forced socialization but like the possibility of socialization being there, as a way to build team cohesion, disengage from work, etc.
- jagged-chisel 4y ago
  One should downvote to disagree. One should flag comments that are against community guidelines (trolling, unnecessary rudeness...) This, however, doesn't mean that everyone uses these features correctly.
  - rhn_mk1 4y ago
    I would prefer if users didn't use downvotes if they merely disagree. Disagreement doesn't make something not worth reading - actually, it's the opposite. I see a lot of honest opinions and questions downvoted, and this turns threads into echo chambers.
    - bt4u 4y ago
      [dead]
    - laserlight 4y ago
      Downvoting for disagreement is not my cup of coffee either, but I can understand why people do that. I've never understood why questions are downvoted, though. I'm not talking about “Google it you moron” types of questions. I've seen even simple questions of further inquiry get downvotes. Perhaps there are people offended by questions. I'm genuinely curious.
      - rhn_mk1 4y ago
        Here's an example from today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34216557 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34216557 I can't imagine why this could possibly get downvoted.
superpope99 4y ago
I feel insane when I read stuff like this. If you work in a team in any capacity then you need to have a strong baseline of trust in order to work effectively. Trust is the building block that all effective team performance stacks on top of (see 5 dysfunctions of a team). You don't just get trust for free, you have to build it by creating moments like this where people can demonstrate vulnerability around each other.
- amag 4y ago
  If you for instance work with software developers, true vulnerability shows at a code review not at a occasional game of soccer or similar. Few software developers identify themselves as great soccer players so it's not a threat to their identity to be perceived as bad at it.
- ElevenLathe 4y ago
  Doing it on purpose is the part that feels sociopathic (because it is). Working together 40 hours a week for years at a time should provide plenty of opportunity to become intimate with your coworkers. We don't need a line item in the department budget that says "fun/friendship".
  - guywhocodes 4y ago
    This, working in big tech I've found that the activities are also incredibly infantile and marketed as such. Yes I work with software, no I don't expect everything to be a computer game or "cute".
    - ElevenLathe 4y ago
      It's doubly infantilizing: First, management assumes that their pet programmers are little babies that need play dates with the other office furniture (to mix several metaphors). Second, they assume that the only way to help us is to let us expense a round of laser tag.
    - spacemadness 4y ago
chiefalchemist 4y ago
But it doesn't have to be forced, simply provide the signal that it's ok. Where I work currently there's 99.9% emphasis on output, and .1% on conversation. As a result, I have zero sense of team, zero sense of trust. That's fine when working on small things by yourself, but it doesn't scale. Teams are necessary to solve larger more complex problems. I suppose it all depends on your career aspirations.
tremon 4y ago
At my work, we have a so-called "social daily": every day from 16:00-16:30 people can join the call for some lighthearted banter. Attendance is optional, and I rarely join myself. But I value a lot that it exists.
- Sakos 4y ago
  I think this separation is important. A meeting should either be work or social, but it shouldn't be both. Participation at the daily is mandatory. I'm there to report my progress and hear about everybody else's progress. I don't want to socialize with anybody at 9am, I just want to figure out my workday and get that started. At some point I do want to socialize, and then it's helpful if there are opportunities for that, but it should never be forced and I shouldn't be tricked into it. If I'm at some meeting about an architectural decision, I don't want to socialize, I want us to get to the point. If people want to hang out after that, that's fine. But that's not what that meeting is for.
ohdannyboy 4y ago
I have a very busy social life (so this isn't me being a introvert) and hate forced recreation with coworkers. I don't hate them, but we're not friends either and I have stuff to do. My guess is that management pushes this for loyalty. If all you do is work and get paid you're likely to exit the first year they don't give you a competitive raise. If you're part of a family then you'll stay and even trust the ceo when he says that no layoffs are coming.
skeeter2020 4y ago
"forced" or more charitably "intentional" socialization when in-person goes a long way towards building a multi-faceted relationship. When remote it feels like you're attending an AA meeting.
wistlo 4y ago
I value the occasional to the office, on my schedule (take vacation from vacation and stop in the office for an afternoon), to meet the people I work with regularly. Beyond the occasional stop-through if I'm in the area, I don't derive much value from being there in person. I submit that sharing your desktop and talking into someone's headset is actually more intimate than sitting around the conference table or viewing a screen in a cubicle.
GuB-42 4y ago
If you have a full time job with good work/life balance, chances are that a third of your awake time is spent working, it is probably more than half for many people. That's so much of you life that you may as well try to make it fun. How you make it fun depends from person to person, but socializing with coworkers is definitely on the list for many people (especially extroverts). Introverts may have other ideas, like learning new exciting stuff, but IMHO, if all you think of work is "get it done quickly so I can do something else", I think you are missing something. It doesn't mean you should live for work, but if it takes, say, 20% of your "good time off" to improve 80% of your time at work, I think it is definitely worth it.
mkjonesuk 4y ago
I run a remote team and it’s impossible to get anyone to commit to getting together socially. Best we managed was last year when someone left and he lived locally enough for a leaving do. Most of the team just don’t want the hassle of leaving the house.

dherikb 4y ago

I'm kind like you, but the people are different and many of them really like this interactions. I just think the manager needs to understand those differences and not force the socialization for everyone. Sometimes the manager even embarrasses the people on the team that not are really into participate of some of this socializations.

loveparade 4y ago
I wonder if it's an age or stage of life thing. When I was younger and single I enjoyed these interactions more than I do now that I have a family and kid. I think the need for extra socializing isn't quite there anymore.

atomicnumber3 4y ago

Unfortunately, "work is other people". At least I think that's the quote. Definitely something along those lines. Less glib: I've always found the technical part of work to be by far the easiest part of my job. The computers do what they're told and when they argue with me, it's deterministic, unambiguous and consistent (at least from its perspective anyway). People are a lot more complicated, and they seldom know what they want, what to build, whether they know enough to recognize what to build, whether they know they know enough to recognize what to build, etc. they have feelings that can be hurt, friends who they want to defend, opponents they want to see suppressed. I could go on. Maybe I've somehow only worked in dreadful, dramatic hellscapes, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you? But also I think politics is what happens when more than 3 people want to work together, and so it's an inherent aspect of work. Sorry, this has been a bit rambling. My point is that, while sure you don't need to do bowling night every week, I do find that a zoom call with your teammates every other week with no agenda other than to chat is ridiculously effective. And sometimes your best work can happen after you both accidentally give and receive therapy while at work. Everyone is the main character of their own story and knowing how even the work part of all those individual main stories connect can be really useful insight.

bookofjoe 4y ago
"Hell is other people." —Jean Paul Sartre, "No Exit" (1944)
- lr4444lr 4y ago
  Yeah, the humor of the OP was subtly alluding to this.
A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
<< Maybe I've somehow only worked in dreadful, dramatic hellscapes, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you? But also I think politics is what happens when more than 3 people want to work together, and so it's an inherent aspect of work. Not at all. If anything, you are being very stoic about it from my perspective, but then maybe I only had my initial share of hellscapes ( and each new one is getting worse ). Things are getting more complicated in systems and company hierarchy. It is not always understood ( or well documented ) how those systems interact ( or even supposed to interact in theory ). Without careful navigation it is easy to miss something important, because of office politics. edit: adding missing not

luuuzeta 4y ago

I'm honestly confused what's the use of flagging in Hackernews. You're being flagged, even though you're making some interesting observations that aren't derailing the thread. Is it because the flaggers disagree with your opinions? I also don't like forced socialization but like the possibility of socialization being there, as a way to build team cohesion, disengage from work, etc.

jagged-chisel 4y ago
One should downvote to disagree. One should flag comments that are against community guidelines (trolling, unnecessary rudeness...) This, however, doesn't mean that everyone uses these features correctly.
- rhn_mk1 4y ago
  I would prefer if users didn't use downvotes if they merely disagree. Disagreement doesn't make something not worth reading - actually, it's the opposite. I see a lot of honest opinions and questions downvoted, and this turns threads into echo chambers.
  - bt4u 4y ago
    [dead]
  - laserlight 4y ago
    Downvoting for disagreement is not my cup of coffee either, but I can understand why people do that. I've never understood why questions are downvoted, though. I'm not talking about “Google it you moron” types of questions. I've seen even simple questions of further inquiry get downvotes. Perhaps there are people offended by questions. I'm genuinely curious.
    - rhn_mk1 4y ago
      Here's an example from today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34216557 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34216557 I can't imagine why this could possibly get downvoted.

superpope99 4y ago

I feel insane when I read stuff like this. If you work in a team in any capacity then you need to have a strong baseline of trust in order to work effectively. Trust is the building block that all effective team performance stacks on top of (see 5 dysfunctions of a team). You don't just get trust for free, you have to build it by creating moments like this where people can demonstrate vulnerability around each other.

amag 4y ago
If you for instance work with software developers, true vulnerability shows at a code review not at a occasional game of soccer or similar. Few software developers identify themselves as great soccer players so it's not a threat to their identity to be perceived as bad at it.
ElevenLathe 4y ago
Doing it on purpose is the part that feels sociopathic (because it is). Working together 40 hours a week for years at a time should provide plenty of opportunity to become intimate with your coworkers. We don't need a line item in the department budget that says "fun/friendship".
- guywhocodes 4y ago
  This, working in big tech I've found that the activities are also incredibly infantile and marketed as such. Yes I work with software, no I don't expect everything to be a computer game or "cute".
  - ElevenLathe 4y ago
    It's doubly infantilizing: First, management assumes that their pet programmers are little babies that need play dates with the other office furniture (to mix several metaphors). Second, they assume that the only way to help us is to let us expense a round of laser tag.
  - spacemadness 4y ago

chiefalchemist 4y ago

But it doesn't have to be forced, simply provide the signal that it's ok. Where I work currently there's 99.9% emphasis on output, and .1% on conversation. As a result, I have zero sense of team, zero sense of trust. That's fine when working on small things by yourself, but it doesn't scale. Teams are necessary to solve larger more complex problems. I suppose it all depends on your career aspirations.

tremon 4y ago

At my work, we have a so-called "social daily": every day from 16:00-16:30 people can join the call for some lighthearted banter. Attendance is optional, and I rarely join myself. But I value a lot that it exists.

Sakos 4y ago
I think this separation is important. A meeting should either be work or social, but it shouldn't be both. Participation at the daily is mandatory. I'm there to report my progress and hear about everybody else's progress. I don't want to socialize with anybody at 9am, I just want to figure out my workday and get that started. At some point I do want to socialize, and then it's helpful if there are opportunities for that, but it should never be forced and I shouldn't be tricked into it. If I'm at some meeting about an architectural decision, I don't want to socialize, I want us to get to the point. If people want to hang out after that, that's fine. But that's not what that meeting is for.

ohdannyboy 4y ago

I have a very busy social life (so this isn't me being a introvert) and hate forced recreation with coworkers. I don't hate them, but we're not friends either and I have stuff to do. My guess is that management pushes this for loyalty. If all you do is work and get paid you're likely to exit the first year they don't give you a competitive raise. If you're part of a family then you'll stay and even trust the ceo when he says that no layoffs are coming.

skeeter2020 4y ago

"forced" or more charitably "intentional" socialization when in-person goes a long way towards building a multi-faceted relationship. When remote it feels like you're attending an AA meeting.

wistlo 4y ago

I value the occasional to the office, on my schedule (take vacation from vacation and stop in the office for an afternoon), to meet the people I work with regularly. Beyond the occasional stop-through if I'm in the area, I don't derive much value from being there in person. I submit that sharing your desktop and talking into someone's headset is actually more intimate than sitting around the conference table or viewing a screen in a cubicle.

GuB-42 4y ago

If you have a full time job with good work/life balance, chances are that a third of your awake time is spent working, it is probably more than half for many people. That's so much of you life that you may as well try to make it fun. How you make it fun depends from person to person, but socializing with coworkers is definitely on the list for many people (especially extroverts). Introverts may have other ideas, like learning new exciting stuff, but IMHO, if all you think of work is "get it done quickly so I can do something else", I think you are missing something. It doesn't mean you should live for work, but if it takes, say, 20% of your "good time off" to improve 80% of your time at work, I think it is definitely worth it.

mkjonesuk 4y ago

I run a remote team and it’s impossible to get anyone to commit to getting together socially. Best we managed was last year when someone left and he lived locally enough for a leaving do. Most of the team just don’t want the hassle of leaving the house.