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Microsoft does a pretty good job there. clang has been lacking behind ever since google reallocated resources somewhere else. What bothers me most about C++ is

Microsoft does a pretty good job there. clang has been lacking behind ever since google reallocated resources somewhere else. What bothers me most about C++ is that it's mostly old people now. All the young people who are actively involved in language design, tool development, ... are putting their effort into other languages.

pjmlp 4y ago
There are young people still specially those wanting to work in cool domains like game development, however many older ones have some vested interests in keeping C++ the way it is, hence why even advocating for security is such an uphill battle. Or see how WinDev is so resistent to change, instead of providing .NET like tooling for C++, like Borland/Embarcadero have done for the last 25 years, they stick to their ways of manually editing IDL files and COM.
- Shinmon 4y ago
  While I agree the young people who work on the languages and frameworks are increasingly working with other languages. The rust crowd is much younger than the people who are publicly working on popular C++ frameworks. In 10 years, there won't be many people left working on C++ as a language and on the tooling.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Might be, but until Microsoft et all rewrite their tooling in Rust, there will be enough people to keep C++ going. And if it changes, so be it, I am not coding today as I was in 1986, when I typed my first LOAD "".
    - still_grokking 4y ago
      > but until Microsoft et all rewrite their tooling in Rust, there will be enough people to keep C++ going. At least Microsoft started to do exactly this. They started to touch the Win API even to create Rust bindings. Because MS saw that this is the only way to future prove this stuff. Other big players, like IBM, don't look like they're moving, though. But OK, IBM moves so slowly as a pitch drop falls. So maybe we just don't see them moving.
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        Those Rust bindings are a joke for any serious Windows development. If you feel like C++/WinRT development experience is bad, good luck with Rust/WinRT. And since it is the same team leads, which clearly have proven that they don't care about developer productivity, given how they have managed the C++/CX to C++/WinRT transition, I wouldn't wait too much out of it.
        still_grokking 4y ago
        Yes, Microsoft is Microsoft. And I've heard rumors the Win team is an issue in general. (As the product they ship). But they're at least moving. And the direction is clear.
still_grokking 4y ago
What's wrong about old people? The problem are people that don't want to change anymore. But this trait is independent form age in my experience. But nevertheless, that C++ doesn't attract new developers may have reasons indeed. C++ refuses to get substantially modernized. In the long run such a stance will attract less and less people I think. C++ would need a fresh start without all the baggage collected through several decades of backwards compatibility. A C++v2 is overdue, imho. Only then it would find itself eventually competing with other new languages, without the current killer feature that reads "we can run ancient code". I'm not sure most people behind C++ are keen on such a challenge.
- Shinmon 4y ago
  > What's wrong about old people? > > The problem are people that don't want to change anymore. But this trait is independent form age in my experience. Nothing is wrong with old people. That's not what I was trying to say but people in their 50s or 60s will not be working for much longer. I don't think there will be many people left working __on__ C++ and its tooling in 10 years. > But nevertheless, that C++ doesn't attract new developers may have reasons indeed. C++ refuses to get substantially modernized. In the long run such a stance will attract less and less people I think. I think there are some pretty nice additions in the recent standards but all the backward compatibility is definitely a problem for the development of the language. C++ is basically a "do it all" language and it feels like newer languages have rather specific use cases which they excel in.
  - still_grokking 4y ago
    > I don't think there will be many people left working __on__ C++ and its tooling in 10 years. I would also extrapolate this form how things look now. But in a sense the language has deliberately chosen that way. > C++ is basically a "do it all" language and it feels like newer languages have rather specific use cases which they excel in. Yes, I also see this. I'm not really happy with that as I think it's easier to learn one "real general purpose language" properly than have shallow knowledge in two dozens of glorified DSLs. But C++ isn't this language for me either. I personally would love to see Scala (v3) to become a better general purpose language. It's modern with a lightweight syntax, it's powerful (up to compile time verification of your code), it can embed all kinds of DSLs (which makes dedicated external DSLs superfluous), now it starts even to "run everywhere", but it's slow(er) and fat(er) compared to C++, Rust, and the other contenders in some very important areas, which sadly rules it out for many tasks.
mempko 4y ago
If you rephrase it, kind of sounds bad. What bothers you about C++ is that it's mostly experienced people now?

pjmlp 4y ago

There are young people still specially those wanting to work in cool domains like game development, however many older ones have some vested interests in keeping C++ the way it is, hence why even advocating for security is such an uphill battle. Or see how WinDev is so resistent to change, instead of providing .NET like tooling for C++, like Borland/Embarcadero have done for the last 25 years, they stick to their ways of manually editing IDL files and COM.

Shinmon 4y ago
While I agree the young people who work on the languages and frameworks are increasingly working with other languages. The rust crowd is much younger than the people who are publicly working on popular C++ frameworks. In 10 years, there won't be many people left working on C++ as a language and on the tooling.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Might be, but until Microsoft et all rewrite their tooling in Rust, there will be enough people to keep C++ going. And if it changes, so be it, I am not coding today as I was in 1986, when I typed my first LOAD "".
  - still_grokking 4y ago
    > but until Microsoft et all rewrite their tooling in Rust, there will be enough people to keep C++ going. At least Microsoft started to do exactly this. They started to touch the Win API even to create Rust bindings. Because MS saw that this is the only way to future prove this stuff. Other big players, like IBM, don't look like they're moving, though. But OK, IBM moves so slowly as a pitch drop falls. So maybe we just don't see them moving.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Those Rust bindings are a joke for any serious Windows development. If you feel like C++/WinRT development experience is bad, good luck with Rust/WinRT. And since it is the same team leads, which clearly have proven that they don't care about developer productivity, given how they have managed the C++/CX to C++/WinRT transition, I wouldn't wait too much out of it.
      - still_grokking 4y ago
        Yes, Microsoft is Microsoft. And I've heard rumors the Win team is an issue in general. (As the product they ship). But they're at least moving. And the direction is clear.

still_grokking 4y ago

What's wrong about old people? The problem are people that don't want to change anymore. But this trait is independent form age in my experience. But nevertheless, that C++ doesn't attract new developers may have reasons indeed. C++ refuses to get substantially modernized. In the long run such a stance will attract less and less people I think. C++ would need a fresh start without all the baggage collected through several decades of backwards compatibility. A C++v2 is overdue, imho. Only then it would find itself eventually competing with other new languages, without the current killer feature that reads "we can run ancient code". I'm not sure most people behind C++ are keen on such a challenge.

Shinmon 4y ago
> What's wrong about old people? > > The problem are people that don't want to change anymore. But this trait is independent form age in my experience. Nothing is wrong with old people. That's not what I was trying to say but people in their 50s or 60s will not be working for much longer. I don't think there will be many people left working __on__ C++ and its tooling in 10 years. > But nevertheless, that C++ doesn't attract new developers may have reasons indeed. C++ refuses to get substantially modernized. In the long run such a stance will attract less and less people I think. I think there are some pretty nice additions in the recent standards but all the backward compatibility is definitely a problem for the development of the language. C++ is basically a "do it all" language and it feels like newer languages have rather specific use cases which they excel in.
- still_grokking 4y ago
  > I don't think there will be many people left working __on__ C++ and its tooling in 10 years. I would also extrapolate this form how things look now. But in a sense the language has deliberately chosen that way. > C++ is basically a "do it all" language and it feels like newer languages have rather specific use cases which they excel in. Yes, I also see this. I'm not really happy with that as I think it's easier to learn one "real general purpose language" properly than have shallow knowledge in two dozens of glorified DSLs. But C++ isn't this language for me either. I personally would love to see Scala (v3) to become a better general purpose language. It's modern with a lightweight syntax, it's powerful (up to compile time verification of your code), it can embed all kinds of DSLs (which makes dedicated external DSLs superfluous), now it starts even to "run everywhere", but it's slow(er) and fat(er) compared to C++, Rust, and the other contenders in some very important areas, which sadly rules it out for many tasks.

mempko 4y ago

If you rephrase it, kind of sounds bad. What bothers you about C++ is that it's mostly experienced people now?