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Permanent (self-sufficient) LEO human habitation doesn't make sense because there's no source of material there. Mars has the major benefit that we know that th

Permanent (self-sufficient) LEO human habitation doesn't make sense because there's no source of material there. Mars has the major benefit that we know that there are raw materials and enough sunlight to turn those materials into various required inputs like methane. LEO definitely doesn't have that, and it's less clear whether anyplace on the Moon has that than it is Mars. Mars is further away in travel time, but not much further in fuel costs, and it's far better than the Moon for living off the land.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
If you break you neck in LEO you could be in a real hospital in a few hours. From the moon it's a couple days, comparable to like an arctic base dueing a storm. From Mars your family will only get ashes because your body will have been deconposing for months. There is steel, aluminium and oxygen on the moon,'it can host heavy indstry and peoduce ships, space stations, equipment. It can host a space elevator today,'made of normal kevlar. You could build an aircraft carrier and lift it into orbit.
- drevil-v2 4y ago
  > You could build an aircraft carrier and lift it into orbit No you can’t. You still need to spend the same amount of energy per ton to escape earth’s gravity. An elevator does not magically violate laws of physics Edit: As pointed out below I probably misunderstood the comment I was replying too. My bad
  - c22 4y ago
    The comment you're responding to is suggesting a space elevator on the moon, so you only need enough energy to escape the moon's gravity.
  - throwaway777845 4y ago
    [dead]
- moloch-hai 4y ago
  I know somebody who broke his neck in Antarctica and was airlifted out. He's fine now.
  - frontman1988 4y ago
    how does one manage to break their neck in Antarctica?
    - moloch-hai 4y ago
      All it took was not watching where he was walking. There are hazards outside. Concrete, railings, and painted lines are scarce.
- bratbag 4y ago
  So no different than if you broke your neck during the age of discovery on earth? We shouldn't be judging these things by the standards of generally risk averse people on this discussion board. It won't be people like us going.
  - gibspaulding 4y ago
    The difference today is that the astronaut with the broken neck would be front page news for every minute of the hours/days/weeks it took to get them home, and far longer if they die. Bad press is bad for funding, especially in a democratic country.
    - kwhitefoot 4y ago
      > the astronaut with the broken neck would be front page news for every minute of the hours/days/weeks Only while the thing is rare.
    - im3w1l 4y ago
      A brave explorer dying the martyr death to advance humanity. Give him a hero's funeral and give generous pensions to his relatives. Suddenly it sounds like a sales pitch. Well, to some.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    > It won't be people like us going. Is it gonna be disposable lower-class people? In age of doscovery shipowners and governments assumed a 50% death rate from scurvy for their sailors on a major voyage. TThe past is fireign land, executions were a public holiday and children came to watch. We used to gove cocaine to children to stop them crying.
    - mlindner 4y ago
      > Is it gonna be disposable lower-class people? This meme comes from people who've watched too many bad sci-fi shows and don't have a good grasp of history. The people going to space will be the intersection of those who can afford it and those who want and are capable of going. The first people who traveled the oceans were not the lower class. They were the upper class who could afford to fund or pay for the journey by pooling money or independently pay for it. The poor you refer to didn't come until much later in the age of discovery.
- m4rtink 4y ago
  Many inland Antarctic bases are effectively unreachable for months in Winter. Flying a plane to the station in total darkness many thousand of kilometres in -80 C is a good way to end up with more people killed than you are trying to save.
kibwen 4y ago
> Mars is further away in travel time, but not much further in fuel costs, and it's far better than the Moon for living off the land. The prospect of an inhabited Martian colony living off the land is dismal, for anything except extremely far-future timeframes (thousands of years or more). Any extraplanetary colony is going to be invariably tethered to Earth and highly dependent on imports for survival. The moon has the advantage of not just being closer, but having a launch window of "whenever you feel like it", in contrast to Martian launch windows that occur 26 months apart.
- sobellian 4y ago
  On the other hand, I'm curious how the delta-V numbers hold up for landing on the Moon, where aero-braking is impossible. Launch and landing require by far the most delta-V between either of the two bodies, much more than the difference between lunar transfer orbit and Martian transfer.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    OTOH, we can build a lunar space elevator with existing materials because of the lower gravity (even despite the longer distance to L1). Not sure, can we manage that with Mars?
    - randallsquared 4y ago
      Mars' moons make a stationary space elevator extremely challenging, even though known material processes are sufficient.
      - ben_w 4y ago
        Good point. They're so small I forgot about them.
    - oblio 4y ago
      By lunar space elevator I assume you mean an elevator from the lunar surface to the point where lunar gravity is practically 0?
BariumBlue 4y ago
LEO does have export potentials: mainly tourism, r&d, and manufacturing of specific goods. Many countries import the majority of food / material inputs, but output high quality manufacturing, technical, and entertainment goods.
bckr 4y ago
> Permanent (self-sufficient) LEO human habitation doesn't make sense because there's no source of material there Whole books have been written on the raw materials available in space, both from the moon and from Near Earth Objects.[] Mars is a bad idea that needs to go away before we lose the opportunity to perform the actual next step, which O'Neill and others mapped out decades ago. [] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_the_Sky https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_the_Sky

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

If you break you neck in LEO you could be in a real hospital in a few hours. From the moon it's a couple days, comparable to like an arctic base dueing a storm. From Mars your family will only get ashes because your body will have been deconposing for months. There is steel, aluminium and oxygen on the moon,'it can host heavy indstry and peoduce ships, space stations, equipment. It can host a space elevator today,'made of normal kevlar. You could build an aircraft carrier and lift it into orbit.

drevil-v2 4y ago
> You could build an aircraft carrier and lift it into orbit No you can’t. You still need to spend the same amount of energy per ton to escape earth’s gravity. An elevator does not magically violate laws of physics Edit: As pointed out below I probably misunderstood the comment I was replying too. My bad
- c22 4y ago
  The comment you're responding to is suggesting a space elevator on the moon, so you only need enough energy to escape the moon's gravity.
- throwaway777845 4y ago
  [dead]
moloch-hai 4y ago
I know somebody who broke his neck in Antarctica and was airlifted out. He's fine now.
- frontman1988 4y ago
  how does one manage to break their neck in Antarctica?
  - moloch-hai 4y ago
    All it took was not watching where he was walking. There are hazards outside. Concrete, railings, and painted lines are scarce.
bratbag 4y ago
So no different than if you broke your neck during the age of discovery on earth? We shouldn't be judging these things by the standards of generally risk averse people on this discussion board. It won't be people like us going.
- gibspaulding 4y ago
  The difference today is that the astronaut with the broken neck would be front page news for every minute of the hours/days/weeks it took to get them home, and far longer if they die. Bad press is bad for funding, especially in a democratic country.
  - kwhitefoot 4y ago
    > the astronaut with the broken neck would be front page news for every minute of the hours/days/weeks Only while the thing is rare.
  - im3w1l 4y ago
    A brave explorer dying the martyr death to advance humanity. Give him a hero's funeral and give generous pensions to his relatives. Suddenly it sounds like a sales pitch. Well, to some.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > It won't be people like us going. Is it gonna be disposable lower-class people? In age of doscovery shipowners and governments assumed a 50% death rate from scurvy for their sailors on a major voyage. TThe past is fireign land, executions were a public holiday and children came to watch. We used to gove cocaine to children to stop them crying.
  - mlindner 4y ago
    > Is it gonna be disposable lower-class people? This meme comes from people who've watched too many bad sci-fi shows and don't have a good grasp of history. The people going to space will be the intersection of those who can afford it and those who want and are capable of going. The first people who traveled the oceans were not the lower class. They were the upper class who could afford to fund or pay for the journey by pooling money or independently pay for it. The poor you refer to didn't come until much later in the age of discovery.
m4rtink 4y ago
Many inland Antarctic bases are effectively unreachable for months in Winter. Flying a plane to the station in total darkness many thousand of kilometres in -80 C is a good way to end up with more people killed than you are trying to save.

kibwen 4y ago

> Mars is further away in travel time, but not much further in fuel costs, and it's far better than the Moon for living off the land. The prospect of an inhabited Martian colony living off the land is dismal, for anything except extremely far-future timeframes (thousands of years or more). Any extraplanetary colony is going to be invariably tethered to Earth and highly dependent on imports for survival. The moon has the advantage of not just being closer, but having a launch window of "whenever you feel like it", in contrast to Martian launch windows that occur 26 months apart.

sobellian 4y ago
On the other hand, I'm curious how the delta-V numbers hold up for landing on the Moon, where aero-braking is impossible. Launch and landing require by far the most delta-V between either of the two bodies, much more than the difference between lunar transfer orbit and Martian transfer.
- ben_w 4y ago
  OTOH, we can build a lunar space elevator with existing materials because of the lower gravity (even despite the longer distance to L1). Not sure, can we manage that with Mars?
  - randallsquared 4y ago
    Mars' moons make a stationary space elevator extremely challenging, even though known material processes are sufficient.
    - ben_w 4y ago
      Good point. They're so small I forgot about them.
  - oblio 4y ago
    By lunar space elevator I assume you mean an elevator from the lunar surface to the point where lunar gravity is practically 0?

BariumBlue 4y ago

LEO does have export potentials: mainly tourism, r&d, and manufacturing of specific goods. Many countries import the majority of food / material inputs, but output high quality manufacturing, technical, and entertainment goods.

bckr 4y ago

> Permanent (self-sufficient) LEO human habitation doesn't make sense because there's no source of material there Whole books have been written on the raw materials available in space, both from the moon and from Near Earth Objects.[] Mars is a bad idea that needs to go away before we lose the opportunity to perform the actual next step, which O'Neill and others mapped out decades ago. [] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_the_Sky https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_the_Sky