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How easily does it catch fire? There are two aspects of current battery tech that scare me: fire and high voltage. There's not much to be done about the second,

How easily does it catch fire? There are two aspects of current battery tech that scare me: fire and high voltage. There's not much to be done about the second, but it would be nice if I didn't have to worry about my car burning my house down. edit: I'm aware of the statistics about gasoline vehicle fires, guys. edit2: does anybody have an answer to the question I asked?

sn_master 4y ago
Gasoline cars can catch fire too, but the EV problem is that the fires do not go out using traditional techniques and the fire can re-ignite over and over even several days after being put off.
- lylejantzi3rd 4y ago
  Gasoline cars don't catch themselves on fire overnight while you're sleeping. They do it while you're standing there, usually within reach of a fire extinguisher. And, yes, they're easier to put out.
  - lazide 4y ago
    Uh, they do sometimes catch fire while you’re not paying attention? Or were you being sarcastic?
    - lylejantzi3rd 4y ago
      Electric cars or gas cars? Electric cars charge overnight. Improperly balanced packs can overcharge a cell, leading to a fire.
      - dgacmu 4y ago
        We had a gas-powered bmw self-immolate in the parking garage under one of my buildings at cmu. Made for a slightly exciting afternoon and the most horrible smoke I've ever smelled. Don't think they ever learned why it burned.
      - Klinky 4y ago
        Ford had some fire-related recalls recently[1]. Interestingly one of them was for hybrids, but not due to the battery. It was due to the heat shielding placement and that there was a decent chance of fire in the event of an engine failure from combustible fluids hitting hot parts. Also I wouldn't say the car being in motion is a convenient time to have a fire. You're often not just standing there with a fire extinguisher handy. 1. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-issues-new-fire-risk-recall-expands-earlier-call-back-2022-07-08/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-i...
      - lazide 4y ago
        Gas cars catch on fire with surprising frequency. Fuel leaks, electrical shorts, you name it. A lot more frequently than EVs too. It’s why garages are required to have auto closing fire doors.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - dangus 4y ago
    How many EV batteries have caught fire in the manner in which you described per 100,000 vehicles sold, and how does that compare to gasoline vehicles? I’m not a fan of speculation for things so easily measurable. https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/government-data-shows-gasoline-vehicles-are-significantly-more-prone-to-fires-than-evs/ https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/government-data-shows-gasolin...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - sn_master 4y ago
      I am not sure what's your point? There's far less EVs now, and a negligible percentage of them are over 10 years and badly maintained. Also, the nature of fires is still very different. With gasoline you can put it off using water, while for EVs water will actually make the fire worse and you'll need special compounds to turn it off.
      - dangus 4y ago
        This data is per 100,000 vehicles, which takes into account the proportional number of vehicles sold. An analogy: if a Cessna is more survivable in a crash than a jumbo jet but the jumbo jet crashes 100x less, you still want to be flying on the jumbo jet.
        wtallis 4y ago
        The point you're missing is that even after normalizing for the number of vehicles, you still need to also normalize for the age of the vehicles: the rapid growth of EV sales means most EVs on the road are relatively new.
      - ben-schaaf 4y ago
        > With gasoline you can put it off using water, while for EVs water will actually make the fire worse Water is perfectly fine to use on lithium-ion battery fires. It cools down the battery eventually stopping thermal runaway. A strategy I've seen is to submerge the battery pack in water. There's also water additives that help dissolve some of the chemicals in lithium-ion batteries. Note that lithium-ion (and similar) batteries only contain a small amount of polymerized lithium, unlike lithium batteries which contain raw lithium and thus react with water.
  - BenjiWiebe 4y ago
    They are still very difficult to put out. I've been to several vehicle fires (I'm on the volunteer fire department here) and they burn very thoroughly and quickly and hot. And if the magnesium catches on fire you can't use water on it.
  - xeromal 4y ago
    Just an anecdote, but my friend's dad's jaguar spontaneously combusted one night and they had to call the fire department. He swore off jaguars after that lol
    - astrange 4y ago
      British cars stereotypically have electric issues, but I didn’t think that still happened.
      - xeromal 4y ago
        It was 2012ish
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - vel0city 4y ago
    I've had multiple ICE cars which have had "don't park in your garage" recalls precisely because they would catch fire overnight while you're sleeping.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Some agency in the UK tested a blanket that contains the combustion, not sure if it puts it out but if your house is protected the EV can be moved. Youtube search "bridgehill fire blanet"
    - sn_master 4y ago
      EVs are being sold all over. Even if this blanket actually works, it needs to be cheap and easy enough to deploy to everywhere with EVs, or become mandatory to include with EV purchases, otherwise it becomes another gimmick nobody can benefit from.
dangus 4y ago
Gasoline cars have a much, much higher rate of catching fire per 100,000 vehicles. 100 times higher.
- krasin 4y ago
  I found it hard to believe, but apparently, it's true - electric vehicles are less likely to catch fire: https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/government-data-shows-gasoline-vehicles-are-significantly-more-prone-to-fires-than-evs/ https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/government-data-shows-gasolin...
  - anon291 4y ago
    Two questions: severity of fire and ease of putting out. Are those measured as well? Because, yeah, actually 100% of gas cars catch fire, given that there is active combustion in the engine. 'Catching fire' (i.e., the fire escaping from the gas engine) is a common cause of breakdown for a gas car, but the fire is easy to put out. Electric battery fires are more difficult from my understanding. Moreover, in the data you cited, of the nine recalls listed, only 1/9 is caused by a part of the gasoline system, and 8/9 are caused by batteries. Thus, all the fires in gas cars that are cited here are caused by the electrical components, which are scaled up in EVs.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- gnicholas 4y ago
  Might that be related to the fact that the average ICE vehicle is much older than the average EV? What if you compared ICE vehicles of similar age and price to EVs? Do late-model ICE Mercedes catch fire as often as Teslas, for example?
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    Liquids are harder to keep contained than solids. That's mostly it, but also, all the extra complexity of ICEs adds risks too (e.g. lubricant fire are quite common too).
topspin 4y ago
> edit: I'm aware of the statistics about gasoline vehicle fires, guys. It doesn't matter. You'll be lectured none the less. I had someone ask me about electric vehicle fires just before the holiday. She is worried because her son has a preorder deposit on a Tesla Cybertruck. I told her they were safe; fires are unlikely, and ICE cars burn too. That won't stop the worry; you can't tell people anything. Bottom line is people believe they're dangerous. I knew that would happen and said so: Telsa et al. needed to do the necessary education before the inevitable headlines hit. They didn't, so here we are. Got modded into the dirt for predicting this. Go ahead, smash that down button. You can't tell people anything.
- VectorLock 4y ago
  A vehicle fire with an EV is much more dangerous than an ICE. They burn hotter, re-ignite, and take a massive amount of water to put out (like, a pools worth of water)
  - topspin 4y ago
    > A vehicle fire with an EV is much more dangerous than an ICE. No, sorry. A blanket statement likely that isn't meaningful. The failure modes you're comparing are very different and both have aspects that are either more or less "dangerous" than the other. Liquid fuel can spread and ignite very rapidly, whereas damaged batteries tend to smolder for a time before erupting into a large fire. Lithium Ion cells produce large quantities of toxic gases (hydrogen fluoride, in particular, which attacks mucous membranes.) Liquid fuel can be ignited by static electricity from clothing and whatnot. Battery cells can conceal damage from both manufacturing and later events that lead to ignition at unexpected moments. I could go on and on. And for everything I claimed someone else can find an analogous risk with the other. There is no definitive analysis here. Anyone that claims otherwise is talking out of their ass. We won't have answers until there is a fleet full of 20+ year old, neglected electric cars running around getting into wrecks. Even then we'll have to parse the truth from whatever agenda driven narratives prevail at that time.
    - 4y ago
themitigating 4y ago
If you're aware of the statistics of gas fires why aren't you worried about that? If the probability of a EV fire is equal or less than a gas or diesel car fire the concern is illogical.

sn_master 4y ago

Gasoline cars can catch fire too, but the EV problem is that the fires do not go out using traditional techniques and the fire can re-ignite over and over even several days after being put off.

lylejantzi3rd 4y ago
Gasoline cars don't catch themselves on fire overnight while you're sleeping. They do it while you're standing there, usually within reach of a fire extinguisher. And, yes, they're easier to put out.
- lazide 4y ago
  Uh, they do sometimes catch fire while you’re not paying attention? Or were you being sarcastic?
  - lylejantzi3rd 4y ago
    Electric cars or gas cars? Electric cars charge overnight. Improperly balanced packs can overcharge a cell, leading to a fire.
    - dgacmu 4y ago
      We had a gas-powered bmw self-immolate in the parking garage under one of my buildings at cmu. Made for a slightly exciting afternoon and the most horrible smoke I've ever smelled. Don't think they ever learned why it burned.
    - Klinky 4y ago
      Ford had some fire-related recalls recently[1]. Interestingly one of them was for hybrids, but not due to the battery. It was due to the heat shielding placement and that there was a decent chance of fire in the event of an engine failure from combustible fluids hitting hot parts. Also I wouldn't say the car being in motion is a convenient time to have a fire. You're often not just standing there with a fire extinguisher handy. 1. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-issues-new-fire-risk-recall-expands-earlier-call-back-2022-07-08/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-i...
    - lazide 4y ago
      Gas cars catch on fire with surprising frequency. Fuel leaks, electrical shorts, you name it. A lot more frequently than EVs too. It’s why garages are required to have auto closing fire doors.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- dangus 4y ago
  How many EV batteries have caught fire in the manner in which you described per 100,000 vehicles sold, and how does that compare to gasoline vehicles? I’m not a fan of speculation for things so easily measurable. https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/government-data-shows-gasoline-vehicles-are-significantly-more-prone-to-fires-than-evs/ https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/government-data-shows-gasolin...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - sn_master 4y ago
    I am not sure what's your point? There's far less EVs now, and a negligible percentage of them are over 10 years and badly maintained. Also, the nature of fires is still very different. With gasoline you can put it off using water, while for EVs water will actually make the fire worse and you'll need special compounds to turn it off.
    - dangus 4y ago
      This data is per 100,000 vehicles, which takes into account the proportional number of vehicles sold. An analogy: if a Cessna is more survivable in a crash than a jumbo jet but the jumbo jet crashes 100x less, you still want to be flying on the jumbo jet.
      - wtallis 4y ago
        The point you're missing is that even after normalizing for the number of vehicles, you still need to also normalize for the age of the vehicles: the rapid growth of EV sales means most EVs on the road are relatively new.
    - ben-schaaf 4y ago
      > With gasoline you can put it off using water, while for EVs water will actually make the fire worse Water is perfectly fine to use on lithium-ion battery fires. It cools down the battery eventually stopping thermal runaway. A strategy I've seen is to submerge the battery pack in water. There's also water additives that help dissolve some of the chemicals in lithium-ion batteries. Note that lithium-ion (and similar) batteries only contain a small amount of polymerized lithium, unlike lithium batteries which contain raw lithium and thus react with water.
- BenjiWiebe 4y ago
  They are still very difficult to put out. I've been to several vehicle fires (I'm on the volunteer fire department here) and they burn very thoroughly and quickly and hot. And if the magnesium catches on fire you can't use water on it.
- xeromal 4y ago
  Just an anecdote, but my friend's dad's jaguar spontaneously combusted one night and they had to call the fire department. He swore off jaguars after that lol
  - astrange 4y ago
    British cars stereotypically have electric issues, but I didn’t think that still happened.
    - xeromal 4y ago
      It was 2012ish
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- vel0city 4y ago
  I've had multiple ICE cars which have had "don't park in your garage" recalls precisely because they would catch fire overnight while you're sleeping.
- themitigating 4y ago
  Some agency in the UK tested a blanket that contains the combustion, not sure if it puts it out but if your house is protected the EV can be moved. Youtube search "bridgehill fire blanet"
  - sn_master 4y ago
    EVs are being sold all over. Even if this blanket actually works, it needs to be cheap and easy enough to deploy to everywhere with EVs, or become mandatory to include with EV purchases, otherwise it becomes another gimmick nobody can benefit from.

dangus 4y ago

Gasoline cars have a much, much higher rate of catching fire per 100,000 vehicles. 100 times higher.

krasin 4y ago
I found it hard to believe, but apparently, it's true - electric vehicles are less likely to catch fire: https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/government-data-shows-gasoline-vehicles-are-significantly-more-prone-to-fires-than-evs/ https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/government-data-shows-gasolin...
- anon291 4y ago
  Two questions: severity of fire and ease of putting out. Are those measured as well? Because, yeah, actually 100% of gas cars catch fire, given that there is active combustion in the engine. 'Catching fire' (i.e., the fire escaping from the gas engine) is a common cause of breakdown for a gas car, but the fire is easy to put out. Electric battery fires are more difficult from my understanding. Moreover, in the data you cited, of the nine recalls listed, only 1/9 is caused by a part of the gasoline system, and 8/9 are caused by batteries. Thus, all the fires in gas cars that are cited here are caused by the electrical components, which are scaled up in EVs.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
gnicholas 4y ago
Might that be related to the fact that the average ICE vehicle is much older than the average EV? What if you compared ICE vehicles of similar age and price to EVs? Do late-model ICE Mercedes catch fire as often as Teslas, for example?
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  Liquids are harder to keep contained than solids. That's mostly it, but also, all the extra complexity of ICEs adds risks too (e.g. lubricant fire are quite common too).

topspin 4y ago

> edit: I'm aware of the statistics about gasoline vehicle fires, guys. It doesn't matter. You'll be lectured none the less. I had someone ask me about electric vehicle fires just before the holiday. She is worried because her son has a preorder deposit on a Tesla Cybertruck. I told her they were safe; fires are unlikely, and ICE cars burn too. That won't stop the worry; you can't tell people anything. Bottom line is people believe they're dangerous. I knew that would happen and said so: Telsa et al. needed to do the necessary education before the inevitable headlines hit. They didn't, so here we are. Got modded into the dirt for predicting this. Go ahead, smash that down button. You can't tell people anything.

VectorLock 4y ago
A vehicle fire with an EV is much more dangerous than an ICE. They burn hotter, re-ignite, and take a massive amount of water to put out (like, a pools worth of water)
- topspin 4y ago
  > A vehicle fire with an EV is much more dangerous than an ICE. No, sorry. A blanket statement likely that isn't meaningful. The failure modes you're comparing are very different and both have aspects that are either more or less "dangerous" than the other. Liquid fuel can spread and ignite very rapidly, whereas damaged batteries tend to smolder for a time before erupting into a large fire. Lithium Ion cells produce large quantities of toxic gases (hydrogen fluoride, in particular, which attacks mucous membranes.) Liquid fuel can be ignited by static electricity from clothing and whatnot. Battery cells can conceal damage from both manufacturing and later events that lead to ignition at unexpected moments. I could go on and on. And for everything I claimed someone else can find an analogous risk with the other. There is no definitive analysis here. Anyone that claims otherwise is talking out of their ass. We won't have answers until there is a fleet full of 20+ year old, neglected electric cars running around getting into wrecks. Even then we'll have to parse the truth from whatever agenda driven narratives prevail at that time.
  - 4y ago

themitigating 4y ago

If you're aware of the statistics of gas fires why aren't you worried about that? If the probability of a EV fire is equal or less than a gas or diesel car fire the concern is illogical.