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Learning history / literature in school is important. I was a total STEM math nerd in school. I used to frequently complain how I don't get what's the point of

Learning history / literature in school is important. I was a total STEM math nerd in school. I used to frequently complain how I don't get what's the point of it, or how it's a waste of time and I'm learning nothing. I still think the emphasis of school was off, but I get the point of it now. Stories are like code for humans. You can't tell someone what it means to be good or bad, or to give them a course in philosophy and they will become good people. But you can tell them a good story, that engages with them emotionally, and it will change their perception. And history shows that in fact, those stories being told and repeated aren't just interesting minor curiosity, but they have shaped the direction of humanity and they are driving it. A single person with a single story can change history in such a way that it would be completely different without it. And some stories about stories need to be told as a warning so that people will not fall for those kinds of stories again.

9804 4y ago
I think people come out of school hating reading because nobody likes being forced to read specific books, as everyone's tastes are different. It sounds like this might have been what happened to you.
- mabbo 4y ago
  I completely agree with this. I loathed Shakespeare in school. Now I try to get a visit every year to the Stratford Festival (in Stratford, Canada) to see at least one or two Shakespearean plays. I also remember reading 1984 on my own time in high school- it wasn't in the curriculum the year I might have. It blew me away. But if I'd been forced to read it, I probably would have been bored.
  - Balgair 4y ago
    For other HN readers: I was like this too. I had no interest in ol' Bill. Then I read his 'best' works. And then I read them again. It takes a bit to get really used to iambic pentameter, to the old words, to the places and people he was writing for, to his limitations of candlelight and lack of amps, etc. Reader, it is totally worth it. There are very many very good reasons that he is still produced and studied. I encourage you in this new year to give him a solid try. Not just a play or two. Read him and watch the plays at the same time. There are hundreds of productions on YT for every play of his, all free, most very good.
    - satvikpendem 4y ago
      To add to this, Shakespeare might sound dry, but it's the same as if you read a screenplay instead of watching a movie; plays are meant to be seen, not (only) read. Something else that might impact our current understanding is that we are not in their time period, so many things we don't understand might be specific to their time, even if we get the broad strokes and very human themes, such as love or revenge. It's the same as if someone 400 years from now saw the movies we put out, some things are just very specific to the time and place. There's also the change in English and pronunciation too, of course.
- machina_ex_deus 4y ago
  I never hated reading, it's just that I didn't get the point of it. What are we even doing here and why? What's the point? Math has clear purpose. I do enjoy some books. I just didn't get the point of studying them beyond reading. Why are they babbling about ? Is there any use for this information or is it just a torture in memorization? Why would I ever care about all these abstract literature terms? Ironically they missed telling the meta story: why would anyone care about stories. If stories are just something you read for fun, why would anyone care to teach me how to analyze them? EDIT: To be clear, these were the questions that weren't answered back then. Only now, years later with life experience the purpose is clear.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- dehrmann 4y ago
  My issue was the volume we were expected to read, or at least volume on top of books I wasn't interested in reading.
- kamaal 4y ago
  And exams. Learning is one thing, being tested on facts and trivia is totally something else.
  - grogenaut 4y ago
    I woudl get so far ahead on the books I'd forget trivial things thye'd ask on the quizz. In high school our teacher made us read The Sword of Shanarah (~1991). I remember missing a question on a quizz because it was about a first encounter with Allanon where I answered about later in the book. But the teacher was a smart person, he just gave me the final exam on the book which I passed. So I got opted out of the quizzes. He had a whole group of nerds who were way onto scions of Shanarah or later. But this was a private school. He told me that the reason he chose that book was that it was actually easy and a page turner, but also different than what most kids read. But most of all he chose it cause it's a big honking bok. To that point at the end of the class 90% of the kids had near on finished the book. Even the laziest kid in class had to agree that no it wasn't a big chore to read that big of a book if you broke it down and they weren't afraid of big books anymore.
satvikpendem 4y ago
Regarding literature, I'll give an opposite opinion. Being forced to read the classics in school led me to not caring about them at all because I just couldn't relate at all, I had not had the requisite life experience for them to make an impact on me. Now, being an adult and having the life experience, reading them again makes me think more deeply and I can actually relate. So I think in school, we actually shouldn't read high literature lest we hate reading them as adults, which is really when they should be read, not before.
- therealdrag0 4y ago
  The vast majority of adults read almost 0 books. I think there’s some value in forcing classic cultural capital when we can even if it’s lost on some.
  - grogenaut 4y ago
    There's always "that book" for everyone. That one they finally click with. And then they can't shut up about it, such as the davinci-code... or outliers (my daughter's first)... but so few books hit you like lightning... I think part of it is just trying to get to that point where one hits you so expose people to books, who know what will stick. Worked for my daughter. For me it was axctually the first novel I read. My aunt gave me The Malloreon. I was bored in winter break in the late 80s and I felt guilty I hadn't used my aunt's gift. So I read it. Now I recall spending an entire day curled up with a quick trip insulated mug in our breakfast nook when it was below freezing out reading the next book next to my mom. It'd take about 3 hours to finish that herbal tea. Shortly after my dad gave me unlimited allowance for books. It was a smart but mildly costly move.
    - 16Sinker 4y ago
      My dad did the same, and I have to thank him for that. It may have been expensive but no more so than doing some equivalent with video games or the like, none of which would have aided me as much as reading did.
  - latexr 4y ago
thewebcount 4y ago
I was fine with literature, but yeah, history, what a snooze-fest. Why do I care who fought what war 1,500 years ago and who won? It seemed like it mostly came down to a bunch of pompous elites having dick-measuring contests a lot of the time. Then one day the teacher didn’t want to teach and instead showed an episode of Connections, and I was blown away. Learning about how and why our science and technology became what it is was something I could related to and seemed actually useful. I still don’t care for military history, though.
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  Even if there is no connection to our own time, history is one of the most effective teachers of the process of empathy out there. It requires you to be able to place yourself in another time, place, and context. I'll also note that military history and "elites having dick-measuring contests" is far from the trendy side of the last four or so decades of history research and writing. Cultural history, microhistory, and even history of science are all hot topics.
- Balgair 4y ago
  Free to watch here: https://archive.org/details/ConnectionsByJamesBurke https://archive.org/details/ConnectionsByJamesBurke
MichaelDickens 4y ago
> You can't tell someone what it means to be good or bad, or to give them a course in philosophy and they will become good people. But you can tell them a good story, that engages with them emotionally, and it will change their perception. Is that actually true? Do we have good reason to believe that people who study history/literature behave more ethically?
Akronymus 4y ago
> Learning history / literature in school is important. Really depends on HOW you learn it IME. If it's just regurgitating dates/names/whatever it isn't helpful at all, at least for me. If you establish that event x led to y because of z, it just clicks and suddenly makes sense. For example, let's take hitlers rise to power: "He became the chancellor of germany in 1933" That is just about useless. "Hitler rose to power with the help of the nazi party, which was partially formed in response to the treaty of versailles' excessively harsh terms, leading to an extreme amount of inflation and a harsh drop in industry. This set the stage for hitler arguing to use a war as a means of getting rid of the penalties of versailles and bringing germany out from the slump" For me, in school I was mostly taught the first variation.
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  This is true for literally everything you can possibly learn in school. You can learn math badly. You can learn physics badly. You can learn programming badly. You can learn personal finance badly. Professionals who work on history pedagogy work hard to prevent the sort of "memorize names and dates" approach. This shouldn't be considered a unique problem with history as a discipline.
chestervonwinch 4y ago
Additionally, I would say more historical emphasis within STEM itself would be beneficial. Motivate through context. Show students that the concepts arose from people solving problems.

9804 4y ago

I think people come out of school hating reading because nobody likes being forced to read specific books, as everyone's tastes are different. It sounds like this might have been what happened to you.

mabbo 4y ago
I completely agree with this. I loathed Shakespeare in school. Now I try to get a visit every year to the Stratford Festival (in Stratford, Canada) to see at least one or two Shakespearean plays. I also remember reading 1984 on my own time in high school- it wasn't in the curriculum the year I might have. It blew me away. But if I'd been forced to read it, I probably would have been bored.
- Balgair 4y ago
  For other HN readers: I was like this too. I had no interest in ol' Bill. Then I read his 'best' works. And then I read them again. It takes a bit to get really used to iambic pentameter, to the old words, to the places and people he was writing for, to his limitations of candlelight and lack of amps, etc. Reader, it is totally worth it. There are very many very good reasons that he is still produced and studied. I encourage you in this new year to give him a solid try. Not just a play or two. Read him and watch the plays at the same time. There are hundreds of productions on YT for every play of his, all free, most very good.
  - satvikpendem 4y ago
    To add to this, Shakespeare might sound dry, but it's the same as if you read a screenplay instead of watching a movie; plays are meant to be seen, not (only) read. Something else that might impact our current understanding is that we are not in their time period, so many things we don't understand might be specific to their time, even if we get the broad strokes and very human themes, such as love or revenge. It's the same as if someone 400 years from now saw the movies we put out, some things are just very specific to the time and place. There's also the change in English and pronunciation too, of course.
machina_ex_deus 4y ago
I never hated reading, it's just that I didn't get the point of it. What are we even doing here and why? What's the point? Math has clear purpose. I do enjoy some books. I just didn't get the point of studying them beyond reading. Why are they babbling about ? Is there any use for this information or is it just a torture in memorization? Why would I ever care about all these abstract literature terms? Ironically they missed telling the meta story: why would anyone care about stories. If stories are just something you read for fun, why would anyone care to teach me how to analyze them? EDIT: To be clear, these were the questions that weren't answered back then. Only now, years later with life experience the purpose is clear.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
dehrmann 4y ago
My issue was the volume we were expected to read, or at least volume on top of books I wasn't interested in reading.
kamaal 4y ago
And exams. Learning is one thing, being tested on facts and trivia is totally something else.
- grogenaut 4y ago
  I woudl get so far ahead on the books I'd forget trivial things thye'd ask on the quizz. In high school our teacher made us read The Sword of Shanarah (~1991). I remember missing a question on a quizz because it was about a first encounter with Allanon where I answered about later in the book. But the teacher was a smart person, he just gave me the final exam on the book which I passed. So I got opted out of the quizzes. He had a whole group of nerds who were way onto scions of Shanarah or later. But this was a private school. He told me that the reason he chose that book was that it was actually easy and a page turner, but also different than what most kids read. But most of all he chose it cause it's a big honking bok. To that point at the end of the class 90% of the kids had near on finished the book. Even the laziest kid in class had to agree that no it wasn't a big chore to read that big of a book if you broke it down and they weren't afraid of big books anymore.

satvikpendem 4y ago

Regarding literature, I'll give an opposite opinion. Being forced to read the classics in school led me to not caring about them at all because I just couldn't relate at all, I had not had the requisite life experience for them to make an impact on me. Now, being an adult and having the life experience, reading them again makes me think more deeply and I can actually relate. So I think in school, we actually shouldn't read high literature lest we hate reading them as adults, which is really when they should be read, not before.

therealdrag0 4y ago
The vast majority of adults read almost 0 books. I think there’s some value in forcing classic cultural capital when we can even if it’s lost on some.
- grogenaut 4y ago
  There's always "that book" for everyone. That one they finally click with. And then they can't shut up about it, such as the davinci-code... or outliers (my daughter's first)... but so few books hit you like lightning... I think part of it is just trying to get to that point where one hits you so expose people to books, who know what will stick. Worked for my daughter. For me it was axctually the first novel I read. My aunt gave me The Malloreon. I was bored in winter break in the late 80s and I felt guilty I hadn't used my aunt's gift. So I read it. Now I recall spending an entire day curled up with a quick trip insulated mug in our breakfast nook when it was below freezing out reading the next book next to my mom. It'd take about 3 hours to finish that herbal tea. Shortly after my dad gave me unlimited allowance for books. It was a smart but mildly costly move.
  - 16Sinker 4y ago
    My dad did the same, and I have to thank him for that. It may have been expensive but no more so than doing some equivalent with video games or the like, none of which would have aided me as much as reading did.
- latexr 4y ago

thewebcount 4y ago

I was fine with literature, but yeah, history, what a snooze-fest. Why do I care who fought what war 1,500 years ago and who won? It seemed like it mostly came down to a bunch of pompous elites having dick-measuring contests a lot of the time. Then one day the teacher didn’t want to teach and instead showed an episode of Connections, and I was blown away. Learning about how and why our science and technology became what it is was something I could related to and seemed actually useful. I still don’t care for military history, though.

UncleMeat 4y ago
Even if there is no connection to our own time, history is one of the most effective teachers of the process of empathy out there. It requires you to be able to place yourself in another time, place, and context. I'll also note that military history and "elites having dick-measuring contests" is far from the trendy side of the last four or so decades of history research and writing. Cultural history, microhistory, and even history of science are all hot topics.
Balgair 4y ago
Free to watch here: https://archive.org/details/ConnectionsByJamesBurke https://archive.org/details/ConnectionsByJamesBurke

MichaelDickens 4y ago

> You can't tell someone what it means to be good or bad, or to give them a course in philosophy and they will become good people. But you can tell them a good story, that engages with them emotionally, and it will change their perception. Is that actually true? Do we have good reason to believe that people who study history/literature behave more ethically?

Akronymus 4y ago

> Learning history / literature in school is important. Really depends on HOW you learn it IME. If it's just regurgitating dates/names/whatever it isn't helpful at all, at least for me. If you establish that event x led to y because of z, it just clicks and suddenly makes sense. For example, let's take hitlers rise to power: "He became the chancellor of germany in 1933" That is just about useless. "Hitler rose to power with the help of the nazi party, which was partially formed in response to the treaty of versailles' excessively harsh terms, leading to an extreme amount of inflation and a harsh drop in industry. This set the stage for hitler arguing to use a war as a means of getting rid of the penalties of versailles and bringing germany out from the slump" For me, in school I was mostly taught the first variation.

UncleMeat 4y ago
This is true for literally everything you can possibly learn in school. You can learn math badly. You can learn physics badly. You can learn programming badly. You can learn personal finance badly. Professionals who work on history pedagogy work hard to prevent the sort of "memorize names and dates" approach. This shouldn't be considered a unique problem with history as a discipline.

chestervonwinch 4y ago

Additionally, I would say more historical emphasis within STEM itself would be beneficial. Motivate through context. Show students that the concepts arose from people solving problems.