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I think the largest issues with the EU is that it is fundamentally flawed for one main reason: all these countries are tied to the hip to each other due to the

I think the largest issues with the EU is that it is fundamentally flawed for one main reason: all these countries are tied to the hip to each other due to the currency and singe market, but cannot control the others economies or spending. It's like splitting bills with your unemployed brother in law. For a common central bank and currency union, each country de facto has to give into a federalism of central debt issuance and budgetary powers. We have this in the United States: the federal government can run a deficit and print money, individual states cannot. We have a republic and California (most populous state) gets more representation than Wyoming (least populous). For the EU to work long term, every country is going to have to give up more and more power / fiscal autonomy to Brussels each year for the currency to work. What happened when Greece was going to default on its debt? Germany stepped in, bailed them out, and started stealing their assets (airports, ports) because they weren't going to let the currency tank. Granted, Greece has some issues but whether they like it or not Greece defaulting on their debt affects the whole currency block. Greece issued its own debt. The reality of the eurozone is that it has made rich countries exports cheaper (Germany, France) and made marginal countries poorer (Italy, Spain, Portugal). If you grew up in Croatia speaking Croat and possibly English, do you really think the Greek labor market is open to you? Could you in all practicality relocate to Belgium and start a business? Anti globalism sentiments are in every country these days. I personally don't see euro countries giving any more power to the European Commission, and I see the project ultimately failing. My 2 cents. I don't have a dog in this race, and don't really think the EU is "good" or "bad."

viraptor 4y ago
> It's like splitting bills with your unemployed brother in law. I don't think that's a great comparison. It's not just a choice for now, but a multi-generation plan. If we don't share now, we're just going to end up with the possibility of poorer countries getting into more extreme governments as requested by suffering population and eventually waves of refugees. It's more of a choice of supporting a neighbour in development with the prospect of better trade in the future, or saying "not my problem, let my grandchild deal with the fallout".
- happyjack 4y ago
  So it's better to subsidize the union now, instead of deal with other countries refugees in the future?
  - viraptor 4y ago
    As one of the examples, yes. Another one is effectively subsidizing the military of others in the union. There's a reason Russian bombs stop just before Polish border, even though that's just a short distance away from where the logistics for arms delivery is happening.
senko 4y ago
> The reality of the eurozone is that it has made rich countries exports cheaper (Germany, France) and made marginal countries poorer (Italy, Spain, Portugal) Italy is not a marginal country. It's the world's 8th largest economy, way larger than such EU heavyweights as Belgium, the Netherlands and Ireland. > If you grew up in Croatia speaking Croat and possibly English, do you really think the Greek labor market is open to you? Could you in all practicality relocate to Belgium and start a business? If you grew up in Croatia, you for sure speak English and possibly German or Italian as well. It would not be as easy to relocate your business as, perhaps from one US state to another, but that's mostly because of local law differences in how a business must operate. I know people who basically just got up and moved (to the Netherlands, Sweden, Ireland and Germany) and they had no problem whatsoever.
- jokethrowaway 4y ago
  I did just that, I have friends trying to do it and it's complete BS. I was able to do it just because I'm in software and I work with english speaking clients outside the EU and I'm just shopping for the best eu country that gives me the best weather / services / lifestyle with the lower taxes. People outside of software have a hard time and are stuck in their country, exactly like they were before the EU.
  - senko 4y ago
    Which country did you move to, and what was the main impediment? Your combo sounds like Portugal. I agree there are probably differences between countries, but from what I've seen if your trade is in demand in the target country, it's relatively easy. And it's even easier if there's an expat community you can reach out to for advice.
  - happyjack 4y ago
    I hope people realize I'm not just shutting on the EU with my post. It is legitimately hard to emigrate ANYWHERE, let alone another country that doesn't speak your language and has cultural differences. Hell, I couldn't live, work, state a business in most of the USA and we all speak the same language and share a lot of the same culture, currency, federal government. Etc.
mejutoco 4y ago
> Anti globalism sentiments are in every country these days. I personally don't see euro countries giving any more power to the European Commission, and I see the project ultimately failing. My personal experience is that after brexit a lot of people are more pro-eu than before. Of course it is just anecdata.
- zirgs 4y ago
  Lots of eurosceptic parties toned down their euroscepticism after Brexit (predictably) turned out to be a disaster. Front National in France is one of the most notable examples.
pydry 4y ago
It's more like forcing your unemployed brother in law to always go to the fancy, expensive restaurant you go to with your high flying lawyer friends and then splitting the bill 50/50. America does fiscal transfers. Poorer states get money from richer states. It wouldnt work if they were all routinely forced to borrow money and declare bankruptcy.
- pavlov 4y ago
  The EU does fiscal transfers too. Its 150 billion EUR budget isn’t anywhere near as large as the US federal one, but it’s definitely used as a tool to level up the poorer member states.
- happyjack 4y ago
  100% true. America subsidizes many states and sectors of the nation. But we are able to do this because there is a common representation.
mynameisnull 4y ago
https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/turnaround-portuguese-economy-two-decades-structural-changes https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/turnaround-portuguese-economy... "Business investment is growing again above the EU average. A strong pipeline of EU co-funded investment projects for the next four years is expected to provide an additional boost to investment. " https://www.rosalux.eu/es/article/1585.the-economic-evolution-of-portugal.html https://www.rosalux.eu/es/article/1585.the-economic-evolutio... " Economic policy was also bolstered by a set of favourable circumstances, including the external depreciation of the euro, the relatively low price of oil, economic growth in the country’s main export destinations, Portugal’s ascent as a tourist destination (partly as a result of the political turmoil and instability in the Middle East) and the ECB’s accommodative monetary policy stance (which helped significantly reduce interest rates and minimise public interest outlay" https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/portugals-economic-recovery-how-much-came-from-ditching-austerity/ https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/portugals-econom... "Gomes also pointed out that the biggest boost Portugal received from Europe’s recovery came via exports, with the continent taking up 75% of the country’s exports of goods and services. " I can link stuff all day here. Increases in quality of education, massive rises in investment, Lisbon has become (again) a world class capital, and if anything, Portugal is overheated from their EU membership. I can never get over Portugal being included in this list and it immediately disqualifies for me all subsequent criticism of the EU as badly misguided. I don’t know the other countries on the list nearly as well, my experience with Portugal makes me suspect the entire anti EU argument is a argument in search of data instead of being based on data.

viraptor 4y ago

> It's like splitting bills with your unemployed brother in law. I don't think that's a great comparison. It's not just a choice for now, but a multi-generation plan. If we don't share now, we're just going to end up with the possibility of poorer countries getting into more extreme governments as requested by suffering population and eventually waves of refugees. It's more of a choice of supporting a neighbour in development with the prospect of better trade in the future, or saying "not my problem, let my grandchild deal with the fallout".

happyjack 4y ago
So it's better to subsidize the union now, instead of deal with other countries refugees in the future?
- viraptor 4y ago
  As one of the examples, yes. Another one is effectively subsidizing the military of others in the union. There's a reason Russian bombs stop just before Polish border, even though that's just a short distance away from where the logistics for arms delivery is happening.

senko 4y ago

> The reality of the eurozone is that it has made rich countries exports cheaper (Germany, France) and made marginal countries poorer (Italy, Spain, Portugal) Italy is not a marginal country. It's the world's 8th largest economy, way larger than such EU heavyweights as Belgium, the Netherlands and Ireland. > If you grew up in Croatia speaking Croat and possibly English, do you really think the Greek labor market is open to you? Could you in all practicality relocate to Belgium and start a business? If you grew up in Croatia, you for sure speak English and possibly German or Italian as well. It would not be as easy to relocate your business as, perhaps from one US state to another, but that's mostly because of local law differences in how a business must operate. I know people who basically just got up and moved (to the Netherlands, Sweden, Ireland and Germany) and they had no problem whatsoever.

jokethrowaway 4y ago
I did just that, I have friends trying to do it and it's complete BS. I was able to do it just because I'm in software and I work with english speaking clients outside the EU and I'm just shopping for the best eu country that gives me the best weather / services / lifestyle with the lower taxes. People outside of software have a hard time and are stuck in their country, exactly like they were before the EU.
- senko 4y ago
  Which country did you move to, and what was the main impediment? Your combo sounds like Portugal. I agree there are probably differences between countries, but from what I've seen if your trade is in demand in the target country, it's relatively easy. And it's even easier if there's an expat community you can reach out to for advice.
- happyjack 4y ago
  I hope people realize I'm not just shutting on the EU with my post. It is legitimately hard to emigrate ANYWHERE, let alone another country that doesn't speak your language and has cultural differences. Hell, I couldn't live, work, state a business in most of the USA and we all speak the same language and share a lot of the same culture, currency, federal government. Etc.

mejutoco 4y ago

> Anti globalism sentiments are in every country these days. I personally don't see euro countries giving any more power to the European Commission, and I see the project ultimately failing. My personal experience is that after brexit a lot of people are more pro-eu than before. Of course it is just anecdata.

zirgs 4y ago
Lots of eurosceptic parties toned down their euroscepticism after Brexit (predictably) turned out to be a disaster. Front National in France is one of the most notable examples.

pydry 4y ago

It's more like forcing your unemployed brother in law to always go to the fancy, expensive restaurant you go to with your high flying lawyer friends and then splitting the bill 50/50. America does fiscal transfers. Poorer states get money from richer states. It wouldnt work if they were all routinely forced to borrow money and declare bankruptcy.

pavlov 4y ago
The EU does fiscal transfers too. Its 150 billion EUR budget isn’t anywhere near as large as the US federal one, but it’s definitely used as a tool to level up the poorer member states.
happyjack 4y ago
100% true. America subsidizes many states and sectors of the nation. But we are able to do this because there is a common representation.

mynameisnull 4y ago

https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/turnaround-portuguese-economy-two-decades-structural-changes https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/turnaround-portuguese-economy... "Business investment is growing again above the EU average. A strong pipeline of EU co-funded investment projects for the next four years is expected to provide an additional boost to investment. " https://www.rosalux.eu/es/article/1585.the-economic-evolution-of-portugal.html https://www.rosalux.eu/es/article/1585.the-economic-evolutio... " Economic policy was also bolstered by a set of favourable circumstances, including the external depreciation of the euro, the relatively low price of oil, economic growth in the country’s main export destinations, Portugal’s ascent as a tourist destination (partly as a result of the political turmoil and instability in the Middle East) and the ECB’s accommodative monetary policy stance (which helped significantly reduce interest rates and minimise public interest outlay" https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/portugals-economic-recovery-how-much-came-from-ditching-austerity/ https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/portugals-econom... "Gomes also pointed out that the biggest boost Portugal received from Europe’s recovery came via exports, with the continent taking up 75% of the country’s exports of goods and services. " I can link stuff all day here. Increases in quality of education, massive rises in investment, Lisbon has become (again) a world class capital, and if anything, Portugal is overheated from their EU membership. I can never get over Portugal being included in this list and it immediately disqualifies for me all subsequent criticism of the EU as badly misguided. I don’t know the other countries on the list nearly as well, my experience with Portugal makes me suspect the entire anti EU argument is a argument in search of data instead of being based on data.