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https://twitter.com/AppleSupport/status/1461330383425970180 https://twitter.com/AppleSupport/status/1461330383425970180 > Thanks for contacting us. To get help

https://twitter.com/AppleSupport/status/1461330383425970180 https://twitter.com/AppleSupport/status/1461330383425970180 > Thanks for contacting us. To get help with this issue, please reach out to Curl: https://curl.se/gethelp.html https://curl.se/gethelp.html The original tweet was deleted. If this were a bug report related to the system distribution of curl on M1 macOS (apple's proprietary platform), it seems somewhat entitled that Apple would pass the support burden to the curl author without providing resources to debug on their proprietary platform

Waterluvian 4y ago
If I publish a program to run on a Mac, Apple should give me resources for debugging issues?
- Hizonner 4y ago
  If Apple includes your program as part of the software it sells along with the Mac, then Apple should be sending you well-tested pull requests for any problems its users find, not just giving you debugging resources.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Or fork the project and fix it themselves. I expect the software included in Windows as default to work correctly. I don't see any reason why that wouldn't apply to all products I buy like that.
- TAForObvReasons 4y ago
  If Apple is distributing free and open source software as part of the base operating system, certainly they should be taking on some of the support burden. This would be a different story if Apple wasn't shipping curl directly.
  - Waterluvian 4y ago
    Ah. I accept that argument. I feel that Apple is still acting perfectly legally and perhaps the solution is for developers to be clear about their expectations by way of licensing. But that’s often hard to do once the license ship has sailed and then your program becomes included in something like MacOS. The gist of what rubs me the wrong way is that Apple is following curl’s license precisely and people are still unhappy.
    - thfuran 4y ago
      There's plenty of room for being a dick without breaking a law.
    - wahnfrieden 4y ago
      what's legality got to do with decent society?
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      > The gist of what rubs me the wrong way is that Apple is following curl’s license precisely and people are still unhappy. I view Apple's behavior the same as I do people who leave their shopping carts loose in the parking lot instead of returning them to the corrals. Sure, they aren't legally required to provide any form of support to curl, but they would anyway if they had any decency.
    - morganf 4y ago
      As a human being, it can be very useful to separate out “moral” behavior from “legal” behavior. Even if Apple or John Smith acts perfectly legally, that doesn’t mean they’re acting in a kind or good or well-intentioned or fair way. The law - no matter how comprehensive - can never legislate kindness. In fact, if you are sophisticated about it, you can be a world-class Greatest Of All Time A—-hole while still technically complying with every law in your jurisdiction.
  - doctor_eval 4y ago
    But isn’t there always a kind of quid pro quo in free software? It’s not as if Apple refuses to participate in the free software ecosystem. Doesn’t Apple also publish some important open source software? Sure, Apple ships curl, and maybe doesn’t support it (are you sure? Don’t they build and test it from source on their own servers? Isn’t that a form of support?). But Apple also ships and supports WebKit, which - as the original basis for Chromium - has arguably had a bigger impact on the world than curl has. And I suspect that Apple also contributed to some of the standards that curl relies on. Of course, Apple built WebKit as a fork of KHTML… but if memory serves, they didn’t have to make the fork open source. I’m not trying to defend Apple in any way, I just think that the conversation can be a bit more sophisticated than just “big company ships free software and gives nothing back”. Apple has shipped some really cool open source software in the past, and I think it’s disingenuous to suggest that they owe something to every package that they ship. That is not really in the spirit of free software.
cldellow 4y ago
The original tweet can be seen at https://web.archive.org/web/20211119123038/https://twitter.com/AppleSupport/status/1461330383425970180 https://web.archive.org/web/20211119123038/https://twitter.c... It's hard to tell, but it sounds like the user had a question about how to use the `-E` flag. Directing them to https://curl.se/gethelp.html https://curl.se/gethelp.html seems... reasonable? The first link on that URL is to the curl-users mailing list, which seems like a reasonable venue for such a question.

Waterluvian 4y ago

If I publish a program to run on a Mac, Apple should give me resources for debugging issues?

Hizonner 4y ago
If Apple includes your program as part of the software it sells along with the Mac, then Apple should be sending you well-tested pull requests for any problems its users find, not just giving you debugging resources.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Or fork the project and fix it themselves. I expect the software included in Windows as default to work correctly. I don't see any reason why that wouldn't apply to all products I buy like that.
TAForObvReasons 4y ago
If Apple is distributing free and open source software as part of the base operating system, certainly they should be taking on some of the support burden. This would be a different story if Apple wasn't shipping curl directly.
- Waterluvian 4y ago
  Ah. I accept that argument. I feel that Apple is still acting perfectly legally and perhaps the solution is for developers to be clear about their expectations by way of licensing. But that’s often hard to do once the license ship has sailed and then your program becomes included in something like MacOS. The gist of what rubs me the wrong way is that Apple is following curl’s license precisely and people are still unhappy.
  - thfuran 4y ago
    There's plenty of room for being a dick without breaking a law.
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    what's legality got to do with decent society?
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    > The gist of what rubs me the wrong way is that Apple is following curl’s license precisely and people are still unhappy. I view Apple's behavior the same as I do people who leave their shopping carts loose in the parking lot instead of returning them to the corrals. Sure, they aren't legally required to provide any form of support to curl, but they would anyway if they had any decency.
  - morganf 4y ago
    As a human being, it can be very useful to separate out “moral” behavior from “legal” behavior. Even if Apple or John Smith acts perfectly legally, that doesn’t mean they’re acting in a kind or good or well-intentioned or fair way. The law - no matter how comprehensive - can never legislate kindness. In fact, if you are sophisticated about it, you can be a world-class Greatest Of All Time A—-hole while still technically complying with every law in your jurisdiction.
- doctor_eval 4y ago
  But isn’t there always a kind of quid pro quo in free software? It’s not as if Apple refuses to participate in the free software ecosystem. Doesn’t Apple also publish some important open source software? Sure, Apple ships curl, and maybe doesn’t support it (are you sure? Don’t they build and test it from source on their own servers? Isn’t that a form of support?). But Apple also ships and supports WebKit, which - as the original basis for Chromium - has arguably had a bigger impact on the world than curl has. And I suspect that Apple also contributed to some of the standards that curl relies on. Of course, Apple built WebKit as a fork of KHTML… but if memory serves, they didn’t have to make the fork open source. I’m not trying to defend Apple in any way, I just think that the conversation can be a bit more sophisticated than just “big company ships free software and gives nothing back”. Apple has shipped some really cool open source software in the past, and I think it’s disingenuous to suggest that they owe something to every package that they ship. That is not really in the spirit of free software.

cldellow 4y ago

The original tweet can be seen at https://web.archive.org/web/20211119123038/https://twitter.com/AppleSupport/status/1461330383425970180 https://web.archive.org/web/20211119123038/https://twitter.c... It's hard to tell, but it sounds like the user had a question about how to use the `-E` flag. Directing them to https://curl.se/gethelp.html https://curl.se/gethelp.html seems... reasonable? The first link on that URL is to the curl-users mailing list, which seems like a reasonable venue for such a question.