7 ms·

Why allow anyone to own multiple houses then? Providing rental properties is a valuable service

wildrhythms 4y ago
> Providing rental properties is a valuable service Carpenters and bricklayers provide a service. Plumbers and electricians provide a service. Simply holding a deed is not a service.
- metadat 4y ago
  Maintaining the property is certainly a service.
  - crote 4y ago
    Landlords virtually always hire maintenance companies to maintain the property - and you're paying for it via your rent. You could hire the same maintenance companies if you owned it yourself.
  - the_gastropod 4y ago
    I have been a renter my entire adult life, and over the decades have plowed several hundred thousand dollars into the pockets of the various landlords I’ve rented from. The total maintenance done during all my tenancy is: 1. A broken seal on a washing machine was replaced 2. A leaky toilet was repaired 3. A broken kitchen drawer was replaced I don’t believe my case is particularly uncommon. In ~20 years of renting, ~$500k of rent paid, the total maintenance done on the units I’ve rented probably cost under $100. Toss in the most expensive paint and cleaning regimen after I’ve vacated, and let’s call it a cool $1,000. If the value landlords are providing is “maintaining properties”, their margins here are colossal.
    - metadat 4y ago
      Agree 100%, the margins tend to favor the owner. It varies by property, some are much higher maintenance. My point is simply that these things don't take care of themselves and need to be managed one way or another.
    - eulers_secret 4y ago
      Depends on how you rent. I went through and calculated my total housing expenses for the last 15 years- they’re about $120,000; in my area that’s a (minimal) down payment. It’s less than a year of salary. I’ve had all appliances replaced, a new roof (and a new ceiling when this leaked), the parking lot resurfaced twice, and a new water heater, endless bits and bobs (sink disposal, all new light switches, door knobs, fully new shower enclosure and faucets). Maintenance shovels snow, cleans up leaves, and de-ices. I have never mowed a lawn, shoveled snow nor done any physical labor at all- I’m still in good shape, there’s a gym and pool on premises. My apartment is small, that’s why it’s inexpensive. But I won’t have kids and don’t need >1 bedroom. Already married for the whole time as well. Depends on how one wants to live their life.
      - spacemadness 4y ago
        I think we’re all just completely forgetting that rent price is a function of where you live. Just throwing out numbers like this isn’t helpful.
        the_gastropod 4y ago
        Yea, exactly. My $500k number was primarily for rent in NYC. $120k over 15 years averages $666/mo—an unlikely situation in NY, SF, etc.
    - quesera 4y ago
      Major expenses you're not including, though: - Property taxes - Hazard insurance - Debt service - Some utilities (water, trash, sometimes even electricity and HVAC, depending on your rental agreement) - Maintenance and repair of exterior and common spaces - Repairs and updates after you move out, and before you move in (assuming you have not been in the same apartment for 20 years) Yes of course you're paying for these things via rent. But the owner's margin is probably much smaller than your math would suggest. The value provided to you in the owner's margin includes: - Someone to call if *anything* goes wrong. (Oven broken? faucet dripping? window stuck? Disposal burned out? All problems have one simple solution: Call this number.) - Flexibility of movement. Want to move at the end of your lease? No problem. (Need to sell to move? That will be a long and/or exhausting process, and will cost you 6% of the property sale price!) - The security of knowing that you will never be hit by surprise maintenance costs. $30K for a new roof? $20K for a new furnace? $250K for a seismic retrofit? Never going to be your problem. - The ability to live where you want to! In many locations, there are no apartment-equivalent units for sale. Some property owners are terrible to do business with, and in some markets/neighborhoods only terrible owners are easily found (there's a reason for this! See also hiring, dating, etc). But as an exchange of cash for services, the equation is more balanced than you might realize.
    - quartesixte 4y ago
      You, yourself, might not have had any maintenance required, but you're also somewhat subsidizing anyone else in your complex who might. In exchange for a fraction of what the real maintenance cost of a large repair will be, you get peace of mind that you will never be actually responsible for fixing it or footing the whole bill. The landlord gets to collect profits but one day will have to fix a major problem (and this is guaranteed -- houses wear down over time) that will require them to dip into said profits. And then you have risk. There are levels of damage that will render the unit or units uninhabitable, wiping out possible years if not decades of gains. The margin is to (theoretically) protect against that. Not saying this is the perfect system, and definitely greed has inflated these margins while reducing the value of services rendered, but this is the core idea behind it.
- erik_seaberg 4y ago
  If you don’t personally have $200K burning a hole in your pocket, or you might want to move out next year, getting underwritten and committing to a mortgage in your place is a valuable service.
ehnto 4y ago
I don't disagree. I think we would benefit from a survey that shows how many people actually want to be renting. Since property is so expensive, thanks to how lucrative of an investment property has become, individuals are struggling to buy since they are competing with deeper pockets. I argue this isn't a free market, it's a market slowly being cornered by investors. Not a problem for say, fancy watches. A big problem for a core living utility.

> Providing rental properties is a valuable service Carpenters and bricklayers provide a service. Plumbers and electricians provide a service. Simply holding a deed is not a service.

metadat 4y ago
Maintaining the property is certainly a service.
- crote 4y ago
  Landlords virtually always hire maintenance companies to maintain the property - and you're paying for it via your rent. You could hire the same maintenance companies if you owned it yourself.
- the_gastropod 4y ago
  I have been a renter my entire adult life, and over the decades have plowed several hundred thousand dollars into the pockets of the various landlords I’ve rented from. The total maintenance done during all my tenancy is: 1. A broken seal on a washing machine was replaced 2. A leaky toilet was repaired 3. A broken kitchen drawer was replaced I don’t believe my case is particularly uncommon. In ~20 years of renting, ~$500k of rent paid, the total maintenance done on the units I’ve rented probably cost under $100. Toss in the most expensive paint and cleaning regimen after I’ve vacated, and let’s call it a cool $1,000. If the value landlords are providing is “maintaining properties”, their margins here are colossal.
  - metadat 4y ago
    Agree 100%, the margins tend to favor the owner. It varies by property, some are much higher maintenance. My point is simply that these things don't take care of themselves and need to be managed one way or another.
  - eulers_secret 4y ago
    Depends on how you rent. I went through and calculated my total housing expenses for the last 15 years- they’re about $120,000; in my area that’s a (minimal) down payment. It’s less than a year of salary. I’ve had all appliances replaced, a new roof (and a new ceiling when this leaked), the parking lot resurfaced twice, and a new water heater, endless bits and bobs (sink disposal, all new light switches, door knobs, fully new shower enclosure and faucets). Maintenance shovels snow, cleans up leaves, and de-ices. I have never mowed a lawn, shoveled snow nor done any physical labor at all- I’m still in good shape, there’s a gym and pool on premises. My apartment is small, that’s why it’s inexpensive. But I won’t have kids and don’t need >1 bedroom. Already married for the whole time as well. Depends on how one wants to live their life.
    - spacemadness 4y ago
      I think we’re all just completely forgetting that rent price is a function of where you live. Just throwing out numbers like this isn’t helpful.
      - the_gastropod 4y ago
        Yea, exactly. My $500k number was primarily for rent in NYC. $120k over 15 years averages $666/mo—an unlikely situation in NY, SF, etc.
  - quesera 4y ago
    Major expenses you're not including, though: - Property taxes - Hazard insurance - Debt service - Some utilities (water, trash, sometimes even electricity and HVAC, depending on your rental agreement) - Maintenance and repair of exterior and common spaces - Repairs and updates after you move out, and before you move in (assuming you have not been in the same apartment for 20 years) Yes of course you're paying for these things via rent. But the owner's margin is probably much smaller than your math would suggest. The value provided to you in the owner's margin includes: - Someone to call if *anything* goes wrong. (Oven broken? faucet dripping? window stuck? Disposal burned out? All problems have one simple solution: Call this number.) - Flexibility of movement. Want to move at the end of your lease? No problem. (Need to sell to move? That will be a long and/or exhausting process, and will cost you 6% of the property sale price!) - The security of knowing that you will never be hit by surprise maintenance costs. $30K for a new roof? $20K for a new furnace? $250K for a seismic retrofit? Never going to be your problem. - The ability to live where you want to! In many locations, there are no apartment-equivalent units for sale. Some property owners are terrible to do business with, and in some markets/neighborhoods only terrible owners are easily found (there's a reason for this! See also hiring, dating, etc). But as an exchange of cash for services, the equation is more balanced than you might realize.
  - quartesixte 4y ago
    You, yourself, might not have had any maintenance required, but you're also somewhat subsidizing anyone else in your complex who might. In exchange for a fraction of what the real maintenance cost of a large repair will be, you get peace of mind that you will never be actually responsible for fixing it or footing the whole bill. The landlord gets to collect profits but one day will have to fix a major problem (and this is guaranteed -- houses wear down over time) that will require them to dip into said profits. And then you have risk. There are levels of damage that will render the unit or units uninhabitable, wiping out possible years if not decades of gains. The margin is to (theoretically) protect against that. Not saying this is the perfect system, and definitely greed has inflated these margins while reducing the value of services rendered, but this is the core idea behind it.
erik_seaberg 4y ago
If you don’t personally have $200K burning a hole in your pocket, or you might want to move out next year, getting underwritten and committing to a mortgage in your place is a valuable service.

ehnto 4y ago

I don't disagree. I think we would benefit from a survey that shows how many people actually want to be renting. Since property is so expensive, thanks to how lucrative of an investment property has become, individuals are struggling to buy since they are competing with deeper pockets. I argue this isn't a free market, it's a market slowly being cornered by investors. Not a problem for say, fancy watches. A big problem for a core living utility.