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> It's not critical infrastructure in the same way that OpenSSL or LLVM or WebKit are. libcurl is for sure

IshKebab 4y ago
It's not. The main application of libcurl could be very easily replaced. Just because it is widely used (assuming it is) doesn't mean it is valuable. You wouldn't say `ls` is critical infrastructure.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  I would absolutely call coreutils critical.
  - IshKebab 4y ago
    Ok maybe "critical" doesn't convey what I mean. What I mean is it's not something that would be difficult to replace. It's like... you might use your phone's timer app all the time. But if it suddenly started nagging you for donations all the time you aren't going to donate; you'd just switch to a different timer app. It isn't uniquely valuable.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
      "Fetch files over HTTP/S" is easy to replace, but lib/curl is a lot more than that, both in protocols and in the endless "fun" edge cases that pop up in the wild west that is the internet.
      - IshKebab 4y ago
        Yeah but almost nobody is using it for any of those weird protocols.
        xena 4y ago
        Cars use it and they're almost always not connected to the internet constantly. I am willing to bet they use weird protocols all the time.
    - npteljes 4y ago
      >it's not something that would be difficult to replace That's very naive. It's just not something that hard to imagine to replicate. Why do you think a 26 year old project exists, if it's something that could be replaced by a 100 lines something? Is the author stupid, or does he just include a lot of cruft and boilerplate? Are Apple and all the other users wrong?
      - IshKebab 4y ago
        Because it's useful and it works? Also we didn't have as many HTTP implementations available in the past. How old do you think `cat` is? Does that mean it would be hard to replace? > Is the author stupid, or does he just include a lot of cruft and boilerplate? I never suggested that. Curl had it's own HTTP implementation. A replacement would obviously not do that. Also curl supports a gazillion protocols that almost nobody uses.
        charles_f 4y ago
        Cat is an interesting example because it's not as trivial as it seems, especially when it comes to performance and resilience: https://endler.dev/2018/fastcat/ https://endler.dev/2018/fastcat/ https://ariadne.space/2022/07/17/how-efficient-can-cat1-be/ https://ariadne.space/2022/07/17/how-efficient-can-cat1-be/ I think this is one of these "not built here" discussions. It's very easy to underestimate the number of edge-cases to support especially in the case of network transfer. You start implementing your own, then you've got to handle non standard certificates, 300 redirects, temporary failures, backoff strategies, optimizing chunk size, handling proxy calls, etc. Using a standard library makes sense.
- mro_name 4y ago
  have you ever tried? How was it complexity-wise? (And critical IMO means 'important in fact' not 'not replaceable in theory'.)

It's not. The main application of libcurl could be very easily replaced. Just because it is widely used (assuming it is) doesn't mean it is valuable. You wouldn't say `ls` is critical infrastructure.

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
I would absolutely call coreutils critical.
- IshKebab 4y ago
  Ok maybe "critical" doesn't convey what I mean. What I mean is it's not something that would be difficult to replace. It's like... you might use your phone's timer app all the time. But if it suddenly started nagging you for donations all the time you aren't going to donate; you'd just switch to a different timer app. It isn't uniquely valuable.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    "Fetch files over HTTP/S" is easy to replace, but lib/curl is a lot more than that, both in protocols and in the endless "fun" edge cases that pop up in the wild west that is the internet.
    - IshKebab 4y ago
      Yeah but almost nobody is using it for any of those weird protocols.
      - xena 4y ago
        Cars use it and they're almost always not connected to the internet constantly. I am willing to bet they use weird protocols all the time.
  - npteljes 4y ago
    >it's not something that would be difficult to replace That's very naive. It's just not something that hard to imagine to replicate. Why do you think a 26 year old project exists, if it's something that could be replaced by a 100 lines something? Is the author stupid, or does he just include a lot of cruft and boilerplate? Are Apple and all the other users wrong?
    - IshKebab 4y ago
      Because it's useful and it works? Also we didn't have as many HTTP implementations available in the past. How old do you think `cat` is? Does that mean it would be hard to replace? > Is the author stupid, or does he just include a lot of cruft and boilerplate? I never suggested that. Curl had it's own HTTP implementation. A replacement would obviously not do that. Also curl supports a gazillion protocols that almost nobody uses.
      - charles_f 4y ago
        Cat is an interesting example because it's not as trivial as it seems, especially when it comes to performance and resilience: https://endler.dev/2018/fastcat/ https://endler.dev/2018/fastcat/ https://ariadne.space/2022/07/17/how-efficient-can-cat1-be/ https://ariadne.space/2022/07/17/how-efficient-can-cat1-be/ I think this is one of these "not built here" discussions. It's very easy to underestimate the number of edge-cases to support especially in the case of network transfer. You start implementing your own, then you've got to handle non standard certificates, 300 redirects, temporary failures, backoff strategies, optimizing chunk size, handling proxy calls, etc. Using a standard library makes sense.
mro_name 4y ago
have you ever tried? How was it complexity-wise? (And critical IMO means 'important in fact' not 'not replaceable in theory'.)