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> fall asleep right away if around someone this... with my first kid I didn't know how to handle, advice was 'to leave it cry to sleep', but it felt like tortu

> fall asleep right away if around someone this... with my first kid I didn't know how to handle, advice was 'to leave it cry to sleep', but it felt like torture to me, inhumane, letting it cry for so long. A little baby just doesn't want to be alone. I discovered just sitting in the same room, reading something on my tablet was enough to fall a sleep after like 20 minutes, 90% of the time. And yes, there are those nights nothing works. Just take him/her out, watch same television and have the baby on your belly to relax. A kid is not a robot, you can't expect it to go asleep when you say it's time for bed, there's no on/off button. I'm often amazed by parents who expect the kid to be tired at exactly 19.00 each evening. That's not how it works, the first year is horrible. You as a new parent will be exhausted by the amount of not-sleeping you'll get, and the amount of attention the kid needs. Expect nothing less, things will get better when the kid grows older. I think it is something of western culture to put a baby in a separate room and leave it alone, and thinking it feels comfortable and save and you can mind your own business.

TeMPOraL 4y ago
> That's not how it works, the first year is horrible. (...) things will get better when the kid grows older. Except when they won't. Our older daughter started having real sleep issues around when she was 1.5 years old. From that point on, every night was one of "those nights nothing works". Her sleeping schedule became quite consistent: roughly 21:00 - 05:00 if she didn't nap during the day, or 23:30 - 05:00 if she slept even as little as 15 minutes at any point during the day. We went through pretty much every trick in the book. Less attention. More attention. Earlier supper. Rituals. Toning down lights an hour before bedtime. Music. Singing. White noise. We consulted a psychologist specializing in small children. But nothing helped - in fact, the more we tried, the worse it would get, with our daughter often going to sleep past midnight, only to wake up at 05:00 sharp. Now I'm going to admit to something that's AFAIK seen as even worse than the "cry it out" method. Something I was very surprised wasn't even mentioned in the entire article. After half a year of unending torture that started to very negatively impact our marriage, in an act of desperation, we gave our daughter melatonin drops. This solved the problem instantly. We all slept very well that night. And the next one. And the next one. Sleep again became something reliable. Obligatory YMMV, IANADoctor, consult your pediatrician, etc. But the point is, every kid is different, and sometimes things don't get better (and it's very hurtful when others try to reassure you they will).
- ravi-delia 4y ago
  I mean melatonin is super safe and fairly effective. Definitely less suffering than crying all night for all parties. It's reasonable to assume a baby would like not to be miserable- so why not!
- jack_pp 4y ago
  IANAD, I don't have kids but I'm curious why melatonin properly dosed would be seen as worse than crying to sleep. From what I've learned about melatonin it seems to me you did the right thing
  - TeMPOraL 4y ago
    Because it's a chemical! A hormone! Because you're dosing your kid with a drug! You're taking the easy way out! You're using a shortcut to cover for your inability to endure the first few days of ${sleep training method}! These and similar kinds of bullshit judgements.
    - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
      While I reserve any judgement on GP’s use of melatonin to help their child sleep, I think the tone of your comment indicates a confidence in pharmacology that is difficult to justify, or at least betrays significant immaturity about the complexity of these sorts of decisions…
      - Aeolun 4y ago
        I think the argument is more along the lines of a lot of people automatically assuming something like this would be bad without any direct justification. The same people that will then feed their kids heaps of antibiotics for a viral infection.
      - TeMPOraL 4y ago
        > I think the tone of your comment indicates a confidence in pharmacology that is difficult to justify, Hey, being condescending about magical thinking and pseudo-reasoning does not automatically imply a special confidence in pharmacology. That said, I do have perhaps above-average confidence in pharmacology, based on some experience and paying attention to details. Much like scientific papers, pharmaceutical products have specific effects and ranges of applicability. If you're aware of those and the trade-offs you'll be making, then pharmaceutical becomes a very effective tool - one that works reliably and consistently, unlike magical / naturalistic thinking. > betrays significant immaturity about the complexity of these sorts of decisions… I think it's the other way around. The example responses I provided are, to me, how immaturity looks like in the reasoning department. A lot of complexity in these sorts of decisions is created by people giving such replies, as now parents have to also trade off effective solutions against being judged by others.
philliphaydon 4y ago
> That's not how it works, the first year is horrible. … things will get better when the kid grows older. My first daughter would wake, have a bottle, fall asleep within a few minutes for 3-4 hours. Wake, bottle, fall asleep for 3-4 hours. The first year was sooooooo easy. The 2nd year I wake, make bottle, hand it to her, she drinks and falls asleep. She’s 4 now and can’t stay in a room alone during the day or night. That’s harder because now I can’t go toilet because she will scream at the top of her lungs until someone is in the room. But sleeping is me staying in the room for 5-20 minutes till she’s asleep.
- FooBarWidget 4y ago
  I moved my child to his own room when he was past 3 years old. I had to, because a second child was coming. Before that age, I also tried several times, but each time I gave up because he protested too much. It was just easier to let him sleep in the same room. When he started sleeping in his own room at 3.5 years old he had to adjust psychologically. I had to convince him that monsters don't exist, or if he still believes they exist, at least that they can't get in because they don't have the key. I also got a night lamp for him so he would be less scared. He would still get up frequently and seek me out because he was scared. The counselor advised us to put him back in bed and be consistent about it. If he gets up 20 times, put him back 20 times, no matter the protests. He accepted this after a few weeks. I also told him that I won't stay until he falls asleep because I have to sleep too. I said I'll stay with him for max 5m, even if he's not asleep. After a few weeks and many protests he finally accepted.
  - philliphaydon 4y ago
    Thanks for the info! Currently I’m in Taiwan staying with family and the plan is to move to New Zealand at the end of next year. Until then we have no space lol so daughter sleeps in her own bed next to ours. But in NZ she will have her own room so that’s when she will need to adjust. I hope the 2nd one is easier. She’s only 4 weeks and wakes only twice a night to feed.

TeMPOraL 4y ago

> That's not how it works, the first year is horrible. (...) things will get better when the kid grows older. Except when they won't. Our older daughter started having real sleep issues around when she was 1.5 years old. From that point on, every night was one of "those nights nothing works". Her sleeping schedule became quite consistent: roughly 21:00 - 05:00 if she didn't nap during the day, or 23:30 - 05:00 if she slept even as little as 15 minutes at any point during the day. We went through pretty much every trick in the book. Less attention. More attention. Earlier supper. Rituals. Toning down lights an hour before bedtime. Music. Singing. White noise. We consulted a psychologist specializing in small children. But nothing helped - in fact, the more we tried, the worse it would get, with our daughter often going to sleep past midnight, only to wake up at 05:00 sharp. Now I'm going to admit to something that's AFAIK seen as even worse than the "cry it out" method. Something I was very surprised wasn't even mentioned in the entire article. After half a year of unending torture that started to very negatively impact our marriage, in an act of desperation, we gave our daughter melatonin drops. This solved the problem instantly. We all slept very well that night. And the next one. And the next one. Sleep again became something reliable. Obligatory YMMV, IANADoctor, consult your pediatrician, etc. But the point is, every kid is different, and sometimes things don't get better (and it's very hurtful when others try to reassure you they will).

ravi-delia 4y ago
I mean melatonin is super safe and fairly effective. Definitely less suffering than crying all night for all parties. It's reasonable to assume a baby would like not to be miserable- so why not!
jack_pp 4y ago
IANAD, I don't have kids but I'm curious why melatonin properly dosed would be seen as worse than crying to sleep. From what I've learned about melatonin it seems to me you did the right thing
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  Because it's a chemical! A hormone! Because you're dosing your kid with a drug! You're taking the easy way out! You're using a shortcut to cover for your inability to endure the first few days of ${sleep training method}! These and similar kinds of bullshit judgements.
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    While I reserve any judgement on GP’s use of melatonin to help their child sleep, I think the tone of your comment indicates a confidence in pharmacology that is difficult to justify, or at least betrays significant immaturity about the complexity of these sorts of decisions…
    - Aeolun 4y ago
      I think the argument is more along the lines of a lot of people automatically assuming something like this would be bad without any direct justification. The same people that will then feed their kids heaps of antibiotics for a viral infection.
    - TeMPOraL 4y ago
      > I think the tone of your comment indicates a confidence in pharmacology that is difficult to justify, Hey, being condescending about magical thinking and pseudo-reasoning does not automatically imply a special confidence in pharmacology. That said, I do have perhaps above-average confidence in pharmacology, based on some experience and paying attention to details. Much like scientific papers, pharmaceutical products have specific effects and ranges of applicability. If you're aware of those and the trade-offs you'll be making, then pharmaceutical becomes a very effective tool - one that works reliably and consistently, unlike magical / naturalistic thinking. > betrays significant immaturity about the complexity of these sorts of decisions… I think it's the other way around. The example responses I provided are, to me, how immaturity looks like in the reasoning department. A lot of complexity in these sorts of decisions is created by people giving such replies, as now parents have to also trade off effective solutions against being judged by others.

philliphaydon 4y ago

> That's not how it works, the first year is horrible. … things will get better when the kid grows older. My first daughter would wake, have a bottle, fall asleep within a few minutes for 3-4 hours. Wake, bottle, fall asleep for 3-4 hours. The first year was sooooooo easy. The 2nd year I wake, make bottle, hand it to her, she drinks and falls asleep. She’s 4 now and can’t stay in a room alone during the day or night. That’s harder because now I can’t go toilet because she will scream at the top of her lungs until someone is in the room. But sleeping is me staying in the room for 5-20 minutes till she’s asleep.

FooBarWidget 4y ago
I moved my child to his own room when he was past 3 years old. I had to, because a second child was coming. Before that age, I also tried several times, but each time I gave up because he protested too much. It was just easier to let him sleep in the same room. When he started sleeping in his own room at 3.5 years old he had to adjust psychologically. I had to convince him that monsters don't exist, or if he still believes they exist, at least that they can't get in because they don't have the key. I also got a night lamp for him so he would be less scared. He would still get up frequently and seek me out because he was scared. The counselor advised us to put him back in bed and be consistent about it. If he gets up 20 times, put him back 20 times, no matter the protests. He accepted this after a few weeks. I also told him that I won't stay until he falls asleep because I have to sleep too. I said I'll stay with him for max 5m, even if he's not asleep. After a few weeks and many protests he finally accepted.
- philliphaydon 4y ago
  Thanks for the info! Currently I’m in Taiwan staying with family and the plan is to move to New Zealand at the end of next year. Until then we have no space lol so daughter sleeps in her own bed next to ours. But in NZ she will have her own room so that’s when she will need to adjust. I hope the 2nd one is easier. She’s only 4 weeks and wakes only twice a night to feed.