6 ms·

"I, too, disregarded Stallman as way too extreme... Only a short while ago I would've declared this as pure paranoia - but with all that's been going on recentl

by spodek 15y ago

"I, too, disregarded Stallman as way too extreme... Only a short while ago I would've declared this as pure paranoia - but with all that's been going on recently, it's no longer paranoia." I considered him extreme until I thought more about it, then came to agree with him on most major points... ... that was in 1993. Glad to see others here.

pyrhho 15y ago
Since you recognised this issue so long ago, I'm sure you have some recommendations regarding how we can solve it?
- lukifer 15y ago
  I'll tell one thing which won't solve it: religious zealotry and advocations for everyone in the world to commit to FSF purity. Open software advocates should treat closed and controlled systems in the same fashion that techies implore content creators to treat piracy: an unstoppable force of nature that must be accepted and competed with, rather than feared and demonized. Also underlying both issues: the need for improved business models to sustain free software and open content. People like to get paid, and t-shirts + donations doesn't always cut it.
  - Stormbringer 15y ago
    Disclaimer: I'm no RMS fanboy by a long stretch of the imagination. What you're saying is that they should throw their arms up in the air and say "welp, that's how the real world works in reality, so might as well give up and accept it". But I think you're being unfair. The normal open advocates don't fear and demonize closed source. They may secretly pity it, they may secretly hate it, I don't know. The RMS vision of open source, when you get right down to it, is that of two sandpits. In one sandpit, everyone shares their toys. In the other sandpit... who cares what they do? If someone comes from the closed source world and wants to play in the open source sandpit, they have to play by the rules (sharing and openness). I think RMS gets frustrated sometimes, because he doesn't want the other people playing in the open playpit giving their stuff away to the people in the selfish (no sharing) playpit. I think his thinking is that it would mean that there is less incentive for them "over there" to examine and repent of their selfish ways. Sometimes the people in the no-sharing playpit have rich relatives that buy them nice toys for Christmas. But RMS views that as okay, if the open playpit turns out to have a need for one of those, he is confident that the open source people have the ability to make something even better, if they can be bothered to do so.
    - lukifer 15y ago
      I am, admittedly, attacking a straw man, though in the case of RMS and a few others, it's not far off from reality. > In one sandpit, everyone shares their toys. In the other sandpit... who cares what they do? That's the attitude I mean. The fact is, a lot of people care: engineers, customers, and investors are making really interesting things happen in that sandpit. For FOSS advocates to avoid the development happening there is a hindrance to progress, not in aid of it. Maybe if RMS let himself own an Android or iPhone (perhaps with SIM removed), he would understand why these new platforms are a big deal, and be better equipped to create truly open equivalents, instead of insisting on living in his purist tech world of the 70's (wget-ing web pages? really?). Closed source isn't evil. It's selfish. And we expect a certain level of selfishness from both individuals and companies. I fully support shifting our values in tech and elsewhere to a greater esteem for community and the commons. But calls for all software to be open and free is unrealistic: many people can't or won't create value without a selfish incentive. Time spent advocating against closed platforms is better spent making open platforms better.
      - Stormbringer 15y ago
        I think that RMS is quite happy to cut all ties with the closed source world in order to build a brave new one that is an idealised programmers paradise. I look at the GPL and it seems to me the clear intent there is to have this separation, this "software apartheid" if you will. You and I on the other hand, might look at it and say "okay, but how do these brave new programmers eat? Who pays their rent?" Back in the day, RMS used to just do some hand waving and point out that if (sorry: "once") the economic benefits of open source are realised that companies will do this because they realise it is in their best interests. I'd be delighted to be wrong, but it seems that only a tiny minority of Open Source developers are actually hired by enlightened companies to work on their Open Source projects full time. Google being an obvious big contributor in that regard. But here's the thing with RMS, he is such an extremist that even Google's contribution isn't enough. He doesn't want a measly couple of buillion dollars worth of commitment, he wants it all, the heart mind body and soul must be dedicated to the cause or you are unworthy. The sandbox metaphor breaks down when we look at one of the things that RMS objects to about Google, that they use Open Source, and they provide 'free(ish)' software services in return, but because those web/software services sit behind the "big-iron" curtain Google are never obligated to release their changes and improvements. Hence the GPL becomes ineffective in that scenario. The problem of course is the risk of ghetto-isation of the open source developers. You and I might be reluctant to leap in boots and all because of petty economic concerns and so keep at least one foot in the closed source world. This lets us see lots of exciting things happening there. But don't forget that there is lots of stuff happening in the open source world. Closed source may look more exciting now, but RMS is taking the long position that in the end his legions of trusty hackers working together will create something much better than the corporations all doing their own small secret things. And something genuinely spectacular happened last year. Last year was (finally) the long predicted, long awaited year of Linux hitting the mainstream. Except of course it wasn't Linux on the desktop, but Linux on mobile (Android). Unfortunately, as open as it might be, it seems to me that Android is deeply flawed as far as alignment with the GNU philosophy of openness, what with the carriers doing all kinds of horrible things (some behind the scenes, some brazenly out in public). I hear stories of Microsoft making more money off Android than the do off Windows mobile (or whatever it is called this week), simply by threatening legal action, and patents of dubious parentage. Not to mention some of the openness being more open than others (e.g. Google releasing the code to some partners but not others, and not the public)
  - stfp 15y ago
    Stallman is a good extreme, in that he creates and lives by an idealized system (call it "pure" if you want), which enables a lot of less ideal, more real-life versions to exist in between his and the "commercial software" world, without any negative side-effect to the world at large.
  - HalibetLector 15y ago
    I used to think this too, until I realized something I didn't thoroughly understand until I read the OP. The reason Stallman wants a "pure" system with no closed source code is because if there's even one proprietary bit of executable code, you can't guarantee your system isn't spying (or capable of spying) on you. Or tracking you or restricting how you use your data. Seen through the argument I just made, when you say closed and controlled systems are an unstoppable force of nature and must be accepted, what you're really saying is digital spying/tracking/restriction is an unstoppable force of nature and must be accepted. It really is an all or nothing proposition at this point.
    - cschwarm 15y ago
      I'd like to remark that your argument is not valid: To know that your system won't spy on you, all you need is open code (transparency). You don't need it to be free. Theoretically, you can have a completely unfree system that is completely open at the same time.
      - HalibetLector 15y ago
        I don't see how that invalidates my argument. I don't mention paid vs unpaid at all, just closed and open.
        cschwarm 15y ago
        I didn't mention paid vs. unpaid, either. I was speaking about 'free' as in 'free software' vs. proprietary. My point was that you can have a proprietary system that is open. For reference, this was the argument I was replying to: > … if there's even one proprietary bit of executable code, you can't guarantee your system isn't spying (or capable of spying) on you.
- joe_the_user 15y ago
  Whatever the poster's ideas might be, I have to point out that it is a fallacy to imply that the person recognizing the problem necessarily can come up with the solution or has an obligation to come up with the solution - even if the person has recognized the problem for a long time.
- spodek 15y ago
  I'm not sure which issue you mean by "this issue," because the freedoms involved in free software touch many issues. I also can't recommend for others not knowing their needs and interests, but I can tell you some things I do. Maybe some things will translate to what you do. I use free software as much as possible, running gnu/linux on my computers since 1996. I stopped dual booting about ten years after that. I give some time to support freedombox -- http://joshuaspodek.com/tag/freedombox http://joshuaspodek.com/tag/freedombox -- when I can. I keep apprised of activities of Stallman, Eben Moglen, and a few others. I attend conferences when I can, like Debconf. I hardly code, but I've released a bit GPL'ed. I support and contribute to Wikipedia. I talk about free software to people who want to know more. My art pieces -- http://joshuaspodek.com/tag/unionsquareinmotion http://joshuaspodek.com/tag/unionsquareinmotion and http://joshuaspodek.com/new_bryant_park_in_motion_videos http://joshuaspodek.com/new_bryant_park_in_motion_videos -- run free software. There's a short list. I'm not trying to save the world all by myself, just to avoid infringing on other people's freedom. All of the above together adds up to a modest amount of time and other resources. I have other priorities for most of my time, but, as I mentioned, I think by making myself aware of the issues, I've reduced how much I'd infringe on others' freedoms. If you're looking for suggestions, I think asking the questions you asked in an open-minded way will start you off. I expect the more you do, the more you'll learn you can do.
- cabalamat 15y ago
  Via the technological route, or the political route. The technological route involves software to enable darknets, and hardware/software to enable ad hoc mesh networking. The political route involves electing representatives that care about these issues, which the Pirate Party have had success doing, e.g. in Germany and Sweden.
adrianbye 15y ago
same for me, except around 2003. RMS is a difficult guy but he tends to be right.
- Zigurd 15y ago
  RMS is difficult because he is consistent, because he is right about difficult topics, and because people have a natural tendency to be comforted by authoritarians. But the issues RMS writes and speaks about are fundamental to human rights, and to the continued ability to create and innovate and create value without getting prior permission.
  - cookiecaper 15y ago
    I think RMS is difficult because he is not cooperative with people who don't share his views in their totality and because like many socially-awkward engineers, he has a penchant for making some really offensive and petty statements over what should simply be an ideological disagreement. I agree with Stallman in many ways but I also have some important and major disagreements. I am sure that he would call me an enemy to free software, even though I regularly contribute to it, and that he would therefore consider my actions absolutely immoral and inexcusable. But I don't think it's immoral and inexcusable to charge money for things in a meaningful way (i.e., a way that actually generates money), at least not in the current context. I've read Stallman's arguments and don't find them particularly convincing. I also don't believe that GNU is entitled to a prefix every time a complete system that uses the Linux kernel and GNU toolchain is mentioned. So where does that leave me? As far as I can tell, Stallman would refuse to work with me, disavow any relationship with me, and consider me an immoral provocateur that harms free software no matter how much good I do for it in actuality (due to my disavowal of freedom 2 as an essential element in moral software). That kind of hardcore, unyielding, exclusive ideology makes it really hard to get anywhere with people. You can't show someone the error of their ways if you refuse to associate or cooperate with them.
  - neilk 15y ago
    No, there are lots of authors who do that and still have a following. 1. As an advocate, RMS scores own goals far too often. RMS seems to go out of his way to present himself as an eccentric who has no comprehension of social norms. I've also seen an entire roomful of people who were ready to eviscerate a new Microsoft technology (this was back when trusted computing was being introduced) suddenly flip around to sympathy with the Microsoft guy when Stallman weighed in. 2. Being RMS' friend is almost as bad as being his enemy. He will condemn someone who has a slightly different position, or has made compromises, with equal vituperation as someone who is directly opposed. I also know someone who got into trouble with his own repressive government due to RMS being unable to keep his mouth shut on issues he didn't understand. (Please don't ask for details.) It's sad because, like the OP, I think RMS is fundamentally right about these issues.
bonch 15y ago
Claiming Richard Stallman was right all along is like claiming the paranoid street preacher predicting natural disasters as God's judgement was right all along when a hurricane hits.
sadfasdf 15y ago
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html That essay is what made me a firm supporter.
- jonhendry 15y ago
  Okay, he wrote a scary story. What has he done to promote laws to prevent what he fears, and to fight laws that lead to what he fears?
  - pingswept 15y ago
    From what I understand, RMS has spent a large fraction of his working life in the last 20 years traveling the world to speak to people about free software. He could be dismissed as too extreme, but dismissing him as someone who hasn't fought for his beliefs is way off. His speaking schedule is often published in the FSF newsletter; he appears to speak to a group about free software around once per week.
    - jonhendry 15y ago
      That's just it, he spoke about free software, not these larger issues. And getting people to adopt free software is an orthogonal issue. Even if GPL software had 99% market share in the US, and everyone in the country were running the same kind of computer as Stallman, the government could still step in and pass all kinds of draconian laws. Getting regular people to adopt the GPL ethos is fine, but if the ethos doesn't permeate government as well, Stallman might as well be touring around promoting the Spice Girls for all governments will be prevented from doing intrusive things.
      - tjr 15y ago
        Richard speaks about more than just free software per se; recent speeches include Copyright vs Community, A Free Digital Society, and The Danger of Software Patents.
      - rjbond3rd 15y ago

by spodek 15y ago

pyrhho 15y ago

Since you recognised this issue so long ago, I'm sure you have some recommendations regarding how we can solve it?

lukifer 15y ago
I'll tell one thing which won't solve it: religious zealotry and advocations for everyone in the world to commit to FSF purity. Open software advocates should treat closed and controlled systems in the same fashion that techies implore content creators to treat piracy: an unstoppable force of nature that must be accepted and competed with, rather than feared and demonized. Also underlying both issues: the need for improved business models to sustain free software and open content. People like to get paid, and t-shirts + donations doesn't always cut it.
- Stormbringer 15y ago
  Disclaimer: I'm no RMS fanboy by a long stretch of the imagination. What you're saying is that they should throw their arms up in the air and say "welp, that's how the real world works in reality, so might as well give up and accept it". But I think you're being unfair. The normal open advocates don't fear and demonize closed source. They may secretly pity it, they may secretly hate it, I don't know. The RMS vision of open source, when you get right down to it, is that of two sandpits. In one sandpit, everyone shares their toys. In the other sandpit... who cares what they do? If someone comes from the closed source world and wants to play in the open source sandpit, they have to play by the rules (sharing and openness). I think RMS gets frustrated sometimes, because he doesn't want the other people playing in the open playpit giving their stuff away to the people in the selfish (no sharing) playpit. I think his thinking is that it would mean that there is less incentive for them "over there" to examine and repent of their selfish ways. Sometimes the people in the no-sharing playpit have rich relatives that buy them nice toys for Christmas. But RMS views that as okay, if the open playpit turns out to have a need for one of those, he is confident that the open source people have the ability to make something even better, if they can be bothered to do so.
  - lukifer 15y ago
    I am, admittedly, attacking a straw man, though in the case of RMS and a few others, it's not far off from reality. > In one sandpit, everyone shares their toys. In the other sandpit... who cares what they do? That's the attitude I mean. The fact is, a lot of people care: engineers, customers, and investors are making really interesting things happen in that sandpit. For FOSS advocates to avoid the development happening there is a hindrance to progress, not in aid of it. Maybe if RMS let himself own an Android or iPhone (perhaps with SIM removed), he would understand why these new platforms are a big deal, and be better equipped to create truly open equivalents, instead of insisting on living in his purist tech world of the 70's (wget-ing web pages? really?). Closed source isn't evil. It's selfish. And we expect a certain level of selfishness from both individuals and companies. I fully support shifting our values in tech and elsewhere to a greater esteem for community and the commons. But calls for all software to be open and free is unrealistic: many people can't or won't create value without a selfish incentive. Time spent advocating against closed platforms is better spent making open platforms better.
    - Stormbringer 15y ago
      I think that RMS is quite happy to cut all ties with the closed source world in order to build a brave new one that is an idealised programmers paradise. I look at the GPL and it seems to me the clear intent there is to have this separation, this "software apartheid" if you will. You and I on the other hand, might look at it and say "okay, but how do these brave new programmers eat? Who pays their rent?" Back in the day, RMS used to just do some hand waving and point out that if (sorry: "once") the economic benefits of open source are realised that companies will do this because they realise it is in their best interests. I'd be delighted to be wrong, but it seems that only a tiny minority of Open Source developers are actually hired by enlightened companies to work on their Open Source projects full time. Google being an obvious big contributor in that regard. But here's the thing with RMS, he is such an extremist that even Google's contribution isn't enough. He doesn't want a measly couple of buillion dollars worth of commitment, he wants it all, the heart mind body and soul must be dedicated to the cause or you are unworthy. The sandbox metaphor breaks down when we look at one of the things that RMS objects to about Google, that they use Open Source, and they provide 'free(ish)' software services in return, but because those web/software services sit behind the "big-iron" curtain Google are never obligated to release their changes and improvements. Hence the GPL becomes ineffective in that scenario. The problem of course is the risk of ghetto-isation of the open source developers. You and I might be reluctant to leap in boots and all because of petty economic concerns and so keep at least one foot in the closed source world. This lets us see lots of exciting things happening there. But don't forget that there is lots of stuff happening in the open source world. Closed source may look more exciting now, but RMS is taking the long position that in the end his legions of trusty hackers working together will create something much better than the corporations all doing their own small secret things. And something genuinely spectacular happened last year. Last year was (finally) the long predicted, long awaited year of Linux hitting the mainstream. Except of course it wasn't Linux on the desktop, but Linux on mobile (Android). Unfortunately, as open as it might be, it seems to me that Android is deeply flawed as far as alignment with the GNU philosophy of openness, what with the carriers doing all kinds of horrible things (some behind the scenes, some brazenly out in public). I hear stories of Microsoft making more money off Android than the do off Windows mobile (or whatever it is called this week), simply by threatening legal action, and patents of dubious parentage. Not to mention some of the openness being more open than others (e.g. Google releasing the code to some partners but not others, and not the public)
- stfp 15y ago
  Stallman is a good extreme, in that he creates and lives by an idealized system (call it "pure" if you want), which enables a lot of less ideal, more real-life versions to exist in between his and the "commercial software" world, without any negative side-effect to the world at large.
- HalibetLector 15y ago
  I used to think this too, until I realized something I didn't thoroughly understand until I read the OP. The reason Stallman wants a "pure" system with no closed source code is because if there's even one proprietary bit of executable code, you can't guarantee your system isn't spying (or capable of spying) on you. Or tracking you or restricting how you use your data. Seen through the argument I just made, when you say closed and controlled systems are an unstoppable force of nature and must be accepted, what you're really saying is digital spying/tracking/restriction is an unstoppable force of nature and must be accepted. It really is an all or nothing proposition at this point.
  - cschwarm 15y ago
    I'd like to remark that your argument is not valid: To know that your system won't spy on you, all you need is open code (transparency). You don't need it to be free. Theoretically, you can have a completely unfree system that is completely open at the same time.
    - HalibetLector 15y ago
      I don't see how that invalidates my argument. I don't mention paid vs unpaid at all, just closed and open.
      - cschwarm 15y ago
        I didn't mention paid vs. unpaid, either. I was speaking about 'free' as in 'free software' vs. proprietary. My point was that you can have a proprietary system that is open. For reference, this was the argument I was replying to: > … if there's even one proprietary bit of executable code, you can't guarantee your system isn't spying (or capable of spying) on you.
joe_the_user 15y ago
Whatever the poster's ideas might be, I have to point out that it is a fallacy to imply that the person recognizing the problem necessarily can come up with the solution or has an obligation to come up with the solution - even if the person has recognized the problem for a long time.
spodek 15y ago
I'm not sure which issue you mean by "this issue," because the freedoms involved in free software touch many issues. I also can't recommend for others not knowing their needs and interests, but I can tell you some things I do. Maybe some things will translate to what you do. I use free software as much as possible, running gnu/linux on my computers since 1996. I stopped dual booting about ten years after that. I give some time to support freedombox -- http://joshuaspodek.com/tag/freedombox http://joshuaspodek.com/tag/freedombox -- when I can. I keep apprised of activities of Stallman, Eben Moglen, and a few others. I attend conferences when I can, like Debconf. I hardly code, but I've released a bit GPL'ed. I support and contribute to Wikipedia. I talk about free software to people who want to know more. My art pieces -- http://joshuaspodek.com/tag/unionsquareinmotion http://joshuaspodek.com/tag/unionsquareinmotion and http://joshuaspodek.com/new_bryant_park_in_motion_videos http://joshuaspodek.com/new_bryant_park_in_motion_videos -- run free software. There's a short list. I'm not trying to save the world all by myself, just to avoid infringing on other people's freedom. All of the above together adds up to a modest amount of time and other resources. I have other priorities for most of my time, but, as I mentioned, I think by making myself aware of the issues, I've reduced how much I'd infringe on others' freedoms. If you're looking for suggestions, I think asking the questions you asked in an open-minded way will start you off. I expect the more you do, the more you'll learn you can do.
cabalamat 15y ago
Via the technological route, or the political route. The technological route involves software to enable darknets, and hardware/software to enable ad hoc mesh networking. The political route involves electing representatives that care about these issues, which the Pirate Party have had success doing, e.g. in Germany and Sweden.

adrianbye 15y ago

same for me, except around 2003. RMS is a difficult guy but he tends to be right.

Zigurd 15y ago
RMS is difficult because he is consistent, because he is right about difficult topics, and because people have a natural tendency to be comforted by authoritarians. But the issues RMS writes and speaks about are fundamental to human rights, and to the continued ability to create and innovate and create value without getting prior permission.
- cookiecaper 15y ago
  I think RMS is difficult because he is not cooperative with people who don't share his views in their totality and because like many socially-awkward engineers, he has a penchant for making some really offensive and petty statements over what should simply be an ideological disagreement. I agree with Stallman in many ways but I also have some important and major disagreements. I am sure that he would call me an enemy to free software, even though I regularly contribute to it, and that he would therefore consider my actions absolutely immoral and inexcusable. But I don't think it's immoral and inexcusable to charge money for things in a meaningful way (i.e., a way that actually generates money), at least not in the current context. I've read Stallman's arguments and don't find them particularly convincing. I also don't believe that GNU is entitled to a prefix every time a complete system that uses the Linux kernel and GNU toolchain is mentioned. So where does that leave me? As far as I can tell, Stallman would refuse to work with me, disavow any relationship with me, and consider me an immoral provocateur that harms free software no matter how much good I do for it in actuality (due to my disavowal of freedom 2 as an essential element in moral software). That kind of hardcore, unyielding, exclusive ideology makes it really hard to get anywhere with people. You can't show someone the error of their ways if you refuse to associate or cooperate with them.
- neilk 15y ago
  No, there are lots of authors who do that and still have a following. 1. As an advocate, RMS scores own goals far too often. RMS seems to go out of his way to present himself as an eccentric who has no comprehension of social norms. I've also seen an entire roomful of people who were ready to eviscerate a new Microsoft technology (this was back when trusted computing was being introduced) suddenly flip around to sympathy with the Microsoft guy when Stallman weighed in. 2. Being RMS' friend is almost as bad as being his enemy. He will condemn someone who has a slightly different position, or has made compromises, with equal vituperation as someone who is directly opposed. I also know someone who got into trouble with his own repressive government due to RMS being unable to keep his mouth shut on issues he didn't understand. (Please don't ask for details.) It's sad because, like the OP, I think RMS is fundamentally right about these issues.

bonch 15y ago

Claiming Richard Stallman was right all along is like claiming the paranoid street preacher predicting natural disasters as God's judgement was right all along when a hurricane hits.

sadfasdf 15y ago

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html That essay is what made me a firm supporter.

jonhendry 15y ago
Okay, he wrote a scary story. What has he done to promote laws to prevent what he fears, and to fight laws that lead to what he fears?
- pingswept 15y ago
  From what I understand, RMS has spent a large fraction of his working life in the last 20 years traveling the world to speak to people about free software. He could be dismissed as too extreme, but dismissing him as someone who hasn't fought for his beliefs is way off. His speaking schedule is often published in the FSF newsletter; he appears to speak to a group about free software around once per week.
  - jonhendry 15y ago
    That's just it, he spoke about free software, not these larger issues. And getting people to adopt free software is an orthogonal issue. Even if GPL software had 99% market share in the US, and everyone in the country were running the same kind of computer as Stallman, the government could still step in and pass all kinds of draconian laws. Getting regular people to adopt the GPL ethos is fine, but if the ethos doesn't permeate government as well, Stallman might as well be touring around promoting the Spice Girls for all governments will be prevented from doing intrusive things.
    - tjr 15y ago
      Richard speaks about more than just free software per se; recent speeches include Copyright vs Community, A Free Digital Society, and The Danger of Software Patents.
    - rjbond3rd 15y ago