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As a senior engineer I completely agree with this. A few days/week remote is fine. But full time remote is a disaster for junior engineers. As you alluded to,

As a senior engineer I completely agree with this. A few days/week remote is fine. But full time remote is a disaster for junior engineers. As you alluded to, it's not just easier access to senior engineers. It's also feeling like you're part of something that matters. I've been lucky to have those kinds of jobs in the past. Now I just have a job, I'm fully remote, and I hate it. It would be even worse if I was just starting out. I suspect that some companies will eventually migrate back to a hybrid model because of this. I can't be the only senior engineer who feels this way.

ericmay 4y ago
> It's also feeling like you're a part of something that matters. Maybe this assumption needs to change? I do think you and the OP you replied to are correct about it being more difficult for junior engineers, but at the same time it selects for people who don’t need someone to tell them what to do, which would be a good thing for a company depending on the role and such.
- suzzer99 4y ago
  If a junior engineer isn't pestering me with questions, I know they aren't learning much. Also they overhear stuff and get drawn into conversations. Or more senior engineers join in conversations between them and another senior. All of this is a challenge over zoom. As far as being a part of something that matters, if I'm going to do a job for 8 hours a day, I'd like for it be as fulfilling as possible. For me that means pressure, teamwork, and at least some in-person interaction. I realize not everyone is the same.
  - ericmay 4y ago
    It depends and it’s a balance. Too many questions is a bad sign because it means they aren’t investing time into solving problems on their own (like math, try for 3 minutes give up and look at the back of the book). The nice thing about Slack/Zoom combo is that if you have a highly self-directed engineer and a self-starter then they can spend time working until they truly feel stuck and then connect and share code snippets and do screen shares and calls. Instead of everything having to be a “stop the world” Q/A session you get a nice async communication channel that allows for various levels of triage. That being said I certainly find in-person collaboration to be very valuable, but not so valuable as to drive a car and sit in an office where I can’t wear sweatpants or get up whenever I want to make an espresso or run an errand if I’m stuck on a problem for a bit.
    - akavi 4y ago
      In my experience, there’s no such thing as too many questions, so long as they’re of good quality. The best intern I’ve ever had was would hit me every single morning with a laundry list of questions, but, crucially they were almost 100% things she didn’t yet have the tools or context to find out on her own. By the end she was asking me questions I hadn’t even thought to ask
      - ericmay 4y ago
        I think there is. Asking for things you can look up how to do on the Internet just isn’t a good question, for example. (Like something generic like how to install a package with NPM or something).
        warkdarrior 4y ago
        > Asking for things you can look up how to do on the Internet just isn’t a good question That is becoming less true by the day, as forums, blogs, etc., are filled with AI-generated pablum or with simply incorrect content. You still need an expert to tell you right from wrong, and the best option is to have a senior person in your team be that expert.
        novok 4y ago
        Either way, you need to bother to try to look up stuff for 5 minutes and figure it out yourself, and for technical content that isn't really the case much. Otherwise you make your mentor annoyed because you didn't even bother to put in the minimum effort and your essentially disrespecting them which creates emotional fallout. Even the bad content gives you some context and will make your question asking work better. This is a great guide to give to everyone: https://quick-answers.kronis.dev/ https://quick-answers.kronis.dev/
        ericmay 4y ago
        > That is becoming less true by the day, as forums, blogs, etc., are filled with AI-generated pablum or with simply incorrect content. I’d contend if you can’t tell as a junior engineer that’s a problem.
  - turdprincess 4y ago
    I think this attitude of making sure each junior engineer has someone senior answer every question as soon as it comes up is doing a disservice to our junior engineers. One of the most important qualities of a senior engineer is that they can independently solve an open ended problem, especially one they haven't solved before. Being senior means you have learned how to learn. You don't get this skill by asking a bunch of questions, you get it by answering your own questions without having someone else to rely on. This is a skill we should foster in our junior engineers as early as possible, and being available as a shoulder to tap on every 15 minutes actively prevents that skill from developing. I think it is perfectly resonable to mentor a junior developer using a single, daily video meeting of 30 minutes or 1 hour. This is a time they can use to ask questions about their previous day, bounce ideas, etc. If a question comes up later, they can spend the day trying to solve it and report on it in the next daily meeting. The best thing you can do for your junior engineer is to find a stream of work which challenges them at the right level (not too much, but just enough), and let them go independently while keeping some guard rails. This should not require many hours of 1:1 face time. I understand this approach might not work for some juniors who can only learn in a highly social context with a mentor in the room. But I think it can work for many juniors, and actually be beneficial in the long run.
  - donmaq 4y ago
    > [junior engineers] overhear stuff and get drawn into conversations. Or more senior engineers join in conversations between them and another senior Even on-prem before 2020, this happened most often in slack at least in the tech startups I was in(?)
- mym1990 4y ago
  This is like a high school or college classroom where no one asks any question...you know no one understands what is going on. What I would look for is juniors who can ask questions, take a morsel of feedback, run with it for a bit, and then ask another question. (But avoiding giving away solutions right away, since you want it to be a learning experience).
lumost 4y ago
The challenge is finding enough people to go into the office. Companies got used to hiring anyone in their region, commute stopped being a consideration. How many people are willing to pay an extra 1-2k per month to live closer to their job? How many of those people are the people you want to hire?
- TuringNYC 4y ago
  >> How many people are willing to pay an extra 1-2k per month to live closer to their job? I dont think it is as simple as "willing to pay an extra 1-2k per month". It is with junior engineers w/o families. Once you have families, living closer to the job is way, way harder, esp for tech jobs concentrated in expensive cities. You cant just share a room with a friend when you have children. Also, things like schooling become considerations -- in NYC for example, you arent even guaranteed a seat in your local school (you're guaranteed a seat at "a" school.) It isnt surprising that SWE salaries ballooned in expensive metro areas and there are constantly "shortages" -- the huge premiums either go into super-expensive family housing near the city, private schools, a pied-e-tierre in the city, or some other acrobatics
  - lumost 4y ago
    Aye - I don’t think policy makers have internalized the degree to which wages have become coupled to housing costs. I strongly suspect the recent increase in interest rates may accelerate wage increases as individuals demand more salary to pay for mortgages or rent.
    - notfromhere 4y ago
      I don't think there's been a year where wage growth has actually outpaced cost of living. Interest wage increases are going to decrease wage increases by softening the labor market
      - lumost 4y ago
        At some point, you either get a recession/depression where prices reset - or wage growth must match cost of living increases. People can’t allocate greater than 100% of income to cost of living indefinitely.
TuringNYC 4y ago
> It's also feeling like you're a part of something that matters. I feel the same way w/r/t something that matters. The trade-off there is when you look at when you - Find parking at a commuter station - Wait for a 6:50AM commuter train (which especially on the return trip can be mysteriously cancelled) - Arrive at the city and then transfer to a subway, which some-times doesnt even run well - Realize you've paid ~$48 for the day's commute
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  This article is about Silicon Valley which doesn’t have this experience.
- HDThoreaun 4y ago
  Right, seniors who live in the suburbs like remote. Juniors who tend to live near the office have less to gain in a remote environment and a lot more to lose.
  - klooney 4y ago
    Ten years ago I was a junior and never quite managed to have a good commute- it was always too expensive, or my startup collapsed and then I had to go somewhere else, etc.
optimalsolver 4y ago
> It's also feeling like you're part of something that matters. This is where I realise I’m dealing with a completely different mindset. Work is something I reluctantly do to fund the things I actually care about. It sure as hell isn’t my entire life or cause for existence. This probably explains why I love being remote.
- rowanajmarshall 4y ago
  Equally, someone who moves straight to SV (or equivalent tech hub) is probably significantly more career-focused than someone who stays put, or moves to a city, so it's unsurprisingly SV is seeing more office work than other regions.
- janosett 4y ago
  > Work is something I reluctantly do to fund the things I actually care about. It sure as hell isn’t my entire life or cause for existence. Some of us prefer to care about our work. 40 hours per week is a lot of time to spend on something you don’t care about. Caring about your work isn’t the same as it being your “entire life or cause for existence”. Our lives can consist of many different interests.
  - bobkazamakis 4y ago
    >Caring about your work isn’t the same as it being your “entire life or cause for existence”. Nor is all work "things you care about" even if you love your job, unless you own the entity. Even if you had a passion for picking up garbage, you'd rather be doing it your way than the way your boss is doing it. There's nothing wrong with wanting to spend non-working hours on something that isn't exploiting you...
    - lazide 4y ago
      The issue is seeing employment as exploitation instead of a trade, and giving up (or denying?) one’s own agency in it. An Exchange of someone’s time and focus for predictability, direction, and money. Most people who do janitorial work would hate having to run a janitorial business. It’s a lot of work organizing everything, doing sales, dealing with legal issues, etc. etc. If someone wants to do a days work and get a days pay, that’s all stuff that gets in the way. It’s also a lot of stuff that is waaaay outside the skill set required to do the work they are able and willing to do.
tnel77 4y ago
I think employers should strive for flexibility. My employer allows full remote, but flies us in twice a year for what mostly boils down to “team building.” More local employees have the option to go into the office as much/little as they would like. It seems to be a good balance and I feel like I have decent relationship with the entire team even though I live across the country.
nugget 4y ago
The trend I'm seeing companies settle into is one where Monday and Friday are work from home days, with Friday being more like a half day or optional day. Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday are default in-office days. I'm curious how this will impact commercial real estate prices, because while there's less overall utilization, the peak load remains more or less the same.
torben-friis 4y ago
> But full time remote is a disaster for junior engineers. I think this is a cultural problem. There is no reason why you can’t pair or engage with people just as effectively in a remote setup. But the change is not magical, it requires having a system for things that previously happened in an improvised manner.
- Shindi 4y ago
  I think you're right, my comment isnt to disagree with you. You can make pairing and constant communication work remotely. However you have to make it work so to speak. Meaning, there is a little bit more friction. You have to harangue senior engs to pair, you have to be posting in slack more, you have to do all these little things. But when you're in person there is less friction and so it gets done more naturally. Like if a task is taking longer than expected, sometimes its because it takes longer than expected. In remote world, you have to know when to ask for help. In person, you might be casually complaining about a task and someone who knows a better way can chime in and get you unstuck without you realizing you're stuck.
AuthorizedCust 4y ago
> But full time remote is a disaster for junior engineers. Nonsense. If you have a good boss, you’ll be mentored to success in person or remotely. Source: I’m the boss who’s done that! Before you say “but but but”, all the buts will point back to a bad boss, who isn’t fixed by in-person presence.
- vidarh 4y ago
  There is a severe problem of promoting engineers into management positions and providing no or insufficient training in line management or mentoring, though. A lot of companies with poor training and mentoring culture will get caught out by remote work and struggle to adapt fast enough.
- mym1990 4y ago
  Caveat being that not many people get to pick who their boss is, and quite frankly I don't know that I've met too many good bosses that toot their own horn. At the end of the day, people should have full accountability for their career and actions, but at a junior level there is a poor baseline for what a good trajectory and a bad trajectory looks like, so room for mistakes is bigger...which should allow people to learn faster.
  - AuthorizedCust 4y ago
    > Caveat being that not many people get to pick who their boss is… Orthogonal to my premise. Being in person doesn’t entitle you to pick your boss, either.
    - _vertigo 4y ago
      No, but at least in person it's easier and much more natural to facilitate mentorship opportunities for yourself if your boss isn't so good.
    - mym1990 4y ago
      I am specifically zeroing in on that because there just aren't that many good "bosses" out there, and even fewer great leaders...as much as most bosses think they may be good. If you do have a great boss that takes the time and energy to do mentorship, wonderful! But that leaves us with the rest of the workforce that has average and bad managers...I would bet that remote outcomes for that part of the workforce are not great.
irrational 4y ago
In my opinion, none of it matters. And all of us are expendable. I’ve seen so many projects closed up - and nobody missed them. I’ve seen so many people retire or move on, and they are never missed. Companies are just machines and neither their output nor the cogs of the machine really matter or are missed once they are gone. That is my experience, anyway.
- theGnuMe 4y ago
  My personal observation is that all companies that succeed, succeed despite themselves. This is basically why you need Product Market Fit. It forgives all sins. It is all that matters. You can even completely fuck up a la Southwest and be totally fine.
908B64B197 4y ago
> But full time remote is a disaster for junior engineers. I used to think the same but realized it's more nuanced than that. There are basically two markets for junior hires: those who can prosper in a remote-first environment (capable of debugging on their own, read doc and ask relevant questions) and those who can't. The contrast is striking. A lot of businesses tried to cut programmer salaried with junior hires from "diverse" pipelines (codeword for bootcamps and certificates) and are now struggling onboarding them in a remote-first environment because of the required handholding. Of course, what the market hasn't figured out yet, is that there's a premium for the later.
tedmiston 4y ago
> But full time remote is a disaster for junior engineers. This is very handwavy. As a principal engineer, I've worked with junior engineers that have adapted just fine and thrived, even as their first or second job out of college. But for that to happen, the company's culture has to be willing and able to shift to remote-first and/or fully remote. The more senior people need to role model the way of how to do remote well in a way that counters its (few) disadvantages. There is definitely a personal component too though. I've also worked with junior engineers that do not work well remotely. But I think that is more personality-based or perhaps maturity-based than seniority-based.
- birdymcbird 4y ago
  another pe here. i have different opinion. few college new hires already personal trait and past life experiences that give them solid work ethic and ability to focus. some see themselves struggle and have awareness to really see this. many of most of them in my experience want to be in office. then you have remainder who isnt able to dive into company (team) culture or influence it, understand need to deliver and have impact, and become independent contributors. these are good engineers but haven’t figured out that you do have to put in the work. id say the company I was at and the company I joined are both remote first. remote first means different things to different companies, orgs, and even teams. there’s no canonical definition, if you know one please share it. I think group 3 I described desperately needs to be in office. these are like the high school kids who didn’t get to experience high school during COVID. unfortunately the environment is so hyper politicized that this wfh thing is sensitive topic and many companies don’t want to properly address problem head on. its being told as binary choice without taking more nuanced approach
mempko 4y ago
It's true co-located teams do better. Remote is worse. But, for the sake of the climate and environment, we need to eliminate commutes and wasted resources on office buildings.

ericmay 4y ago

> It's also feeling like you're a part of something that matters. Maybe this assumption needs to change? I do think you and the OP you replied to are correct about it being more difficult for junior engineers, but at the same time it selects for people who don’t need someone to tell them what to do, which would be a good thing for a company depending on the role and such.

suzzer99 4y ago
If a junior engineer isn't pestering me with questions, I know they aren't learning much. Also they overhear stuff and get drawn into conversations. Or more senior engineers join in conversations between them and another senior. All of this is a challenge over zoom. As far as being a part of something that matters, if I'm going to do a job for 8 hours a day, I'd like for it be as fulfilling as possible. For me that means pressure, teamwork, and at least some in-person interaction. I realize not everyone is the same.
- ericmay 4y ago
  It depends and it’s a balance. Too many questions is a bad sign because it means they aren’t investing time into solving problems on their own (like math, try for 3 minutes give up and look at the back of the book). The nice thing about Slack/Zoom combo is that if you have a highly self-directed engineer and a self-starter then they can spend time working until they truly feel stuck and then connect and share code snippets and do screen shares and calls. Instead of everything having to be a “stop the world” Q/A session you get a nice async communication channel that allows for various levels of triage. That being said I certainly find in-person collaboration to be very valuable, but not so valuable as to drive a car and sit in an office where I can’t wear sweatpants or get up whenever I want to make an espresso or run an errand if I’m stuck on a problem for a bit.
  - akavi 4y ago
    In my experience, there’s no such thing as too many questions, so long as they’re of good quality. The best intern I’ve ever had was would hit me every single morning with a laundry list of questions, but, crucially they were almost 100% things she didn’t yet have the tools or context to find out on her own. By the end she was asking me questions I hadn’t even thought to ask
    - ericmay 4y ago
      I think there is. Asking for things you can look up how to do on the Internet just isn’t a good question, for example. (Like something generic like how to install a package with NPM or something).
      - warkdarrior 4y ago
        > Asking for things you can look up how to do on the Internet just isn’t a good question That is becoming less true by the day, as forums, blogs, etc., are filled with AI-generated pablum or with simply incorrect content. You still need an expert to tell you right from wrong, and the best option is to have a senior person in your team be that expert.
        novok 4y ago
        Either way, you need to bother to try to look up stuff for 5 minutes and figure it out yourself, and for technical content that isn't really the case much. Otherwise you make your mentor annoyed because you didn't even bother to put in the minimum effort and your essentially disrespecting them which creates emotional fallout. Even the bad content gives you some context and will make your question asking work better. This is a great guide to give to everyone: https://quick-answers.kronis.dev/ https://quick-answers.kronis.dev/
        ericmay 4y ago
        > That is becoming less true by the day, as forums, blogs, etc., are filled with AI-generated pablum or with simply incorrect content. I’d contend if you can’t tell as a junior engineer that’s a problem.
- turdprincess 4y ago
  I think this attitude of making sure each junior engineer has someone senior answer every question as soon as it comes up is doing a disservice to our junior engineers. One of the most important qualities of a senior engineer is that they can independently solve an open ended problem, especially one they haven't solved before. Being senior means you have learned how to learn. You don't get this skill by asking a bunch of questions, you get it by answering your own questions without having someone else to rely on. This is a skill we should foster in our junior engineers as early as possible, and being available as a shoulder to tap on every 15 minutes actively prevents that skill from developing. I think it is perfectly resonable to mentor a junior developer using a single, daily video meeting of 30 minutes or 1 hour. This is a time they can use to ask questions about their previous day, bounce ideas, etc. If a question comes up later, they can spend the day trying to solve it and report on it in the next daily meeting. The best thing you can do for your junior engineer is to find a stream of work which challenges them at the right level (not too much, but just enough), and let them go independently while keeping some guard rails. This should not require many hours of 1:1 face time. I understand this approach might not work for some juniors who can only learn in a highly social context with a mentor in the room. But I think it can work for many juniors, and actually be beneficial in the long run.
- donmaq 4y ago
  > [junior engineers] overhear stuff and get drawn into conversations. Or more senior engineers join in conversations between them and another senior Even on-prem before 2020, this happened most often in slack at least in the tech startups I was in(?)
mym1990 4y ago
This is like a high school or college classroom where no one asks any question...you know no one understands what is going on. What I would look for is juniors who can ask questions, take a morsel of feedback, run with it for a bit, and then ask another question. (But avoiding giving away solutions right away, since you want it to be a learning experience).

lumost 4y ago

The challenge is finding enough people to go into the office. Companies got used to hiring anyone in their region, commute stopped being a consideration. How many people are willing to pay an extra 1-2k per month to live closer to their job? How many of those people are the people you want to hire?

TuringNYC 4y ago
>> How many people are willing to pay an extra 1-2k per month to live closer to their job? I dont think it is as simple as "willing to pay an extra 1-2k per month". It is with junior engineers w/o families. Once you have families, living closer to the job is way, way harder, esp for tech jobs concentrated in expensive cities. You cant just share a room with a friend when you have children. Also, things like schooling become considerations -- in NYC for example, you arent even guaranteed a seat in your local school (you're guaranteed a seat at "a" school.) It isnt surprising that SWE salaries ballooned in expensive metro areas and there are constantly "shortages" -- the huge premiums either go into super-expensive family housing near the city, private schools, a pied-e-tierre in the city, or some other acrobatics
- lumost 4y ago
  Aye - I don’t think policy makers have internalized the degree to which wages have become coupled to housing costs. I strongly suspect the recent increase in interest rates may accelerate wage increases as individuals demand more salary to pay for mortgages or rent.
  - notfromhere 4y ago
    I don't think there's been a year where wage growth has actually outpaced cost of living. Interest wage increases are going to decrease wage increases by softening the labor market
    - lumost 4y ago
      At some point, you either get a recession/depression where prices reset - or wage growth must match cost of living increases. People can’t allocate greater than 100% of income to cost of living indefinitely.

TuringNYC 4y ago

> It's also feeling like you're a part of something that matters. I feel the same way w/r/t something that matters. The trade-off there is when you look at when you - Find parking at a commuter station - Wait for a 6:50AM commuter train (which especially on the return trip can be mysteriously cancelled) - Arrive at the city and then transfer to a subway, which some-times doesnt even run well - Realize you've paid ~$48 for the day's commute

zeroonetwothree 4y ago
This article is about Silicon Valley which doesn’t have this experience.
HDThoreaun 4y ago
Right, seniors who live in the suburbs like remote. Juniors who tend to live near the office have less to gain in a remote environment and a lot more to lose.
- klooney 4y ago
  Ten years ago I was a junior and never quite managed to have a good commute- it was always too expensive, or my startup collapsed and then I had to go somewhere else, etc.

optimalsolver 4y ago

> It's also feeling like you're part of something that matters. This is where I realise I’m dealing with a completely different mindset. Work is something I reluctantly do to fund the things I actually care about. It sure as hell isn’t my entire life or cause for existence. This probably explains why I love being remote.

rowanajmarshall 4y ago
Equally, someone who moves straight to SV (or equivalent tech hub) is probably significantly more career-focused than someone who stays put, or moves to a city, so it's unsurprisingly SV is seeing more office work than other regions.
janosett 4y ago
> Work is something I reluctantly do to fund the things I actually care about. It sure as hell isn’t my entire life or cause for existence. Some of us prefer to care about our work. 40 hours per week is a lot of time to spend on something you don’t care about. Caring about your work isn’t the same as it being your “entire life or cause for existence”. Our lives can consist of many different interests.
- bobkazamakis 4y ago
  >Caring about your work isn’t the same as it being your “entire life or cause for existence”. Nor is all work "things you care about" even if you love your job, unless you own the entity. Even if you had a passion for picking up garbage, you'd rather be doing it your way than the way your boss is doing it. There's nothing wrong with wanting to spend non-working hours on something that isn't exploiting you...
  - lazide 4y ago
    The issue is seeing employment as exploitation instead of a trade, and giving up (or denying?) one’s own agency in it. An Exchange of someone’s time and focus for predictability, direction, and money. Most people who do janitorial work would hate having to run a janitorial business. It’s a lot of work organizing everything, doing sales, dealing with legal issues, etc. etc. If someone wants to do a days work and get a days pay, that’s all stuff that gets in the way. It’s also a lot of stuff that is waaaay outside the skill set required to do the work they are able and willing to do.

tnel77 4y ago

I think employers should strive for flexibility. My employer allows full remote, but flies us in twice a year for what mostly boils down to “team building.” More local employees have the option to go into the office as much/little as they would like. It seems to be a good balance and I feel like I have decent relationship with the entire team even though I live across the country.

nugget 4y ago

The trend I'm seeing companies settle into is one where Monday and Friday are work from home days, with Friday being more like a half day or optional day. Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday are default in-office days. I'm curious how this will impact commercial real estate prices, because while there's less overall utilization, the peak load remains more or less the same.

torben-friis 4y ago

> But full time remote is a disaster for junior engineers. I think this is a cultural problem. There is no reason why you can’t pair or engage with people just as effectively in a remote setup. But the change is not magical, it requires having a system for things that previously happened in an improvised manner.

Shindi 4y ago
I think you're right, my comment isnt to disagree with you. You can make pairing and constant communication work remotely. However you have to make it work so to speak. Meaning, there is a little bit more friction. You have to harangue senior engs to pair, you have to be posting in slack more, you have to do all these little things. But when you're in person there is less friction and so it gets done more naturally. Like if a task is taking longer than expected, sometimes its because it takes longer than expected. In remote world, you have to know when to ask for help. In person, you might be casually complaining about a task and someone who knows a better way can chime in and get you unstuck without you realizing you're stuck.

AuthorizedCust 4y ago

> But full time remote is a disaster for junior engineers. Nonsense. If you have a good boss, you’ll be mentored to success in person or remotely. Source: I’m the boss who’s done that! Before you say “but but but”, all the buts will point back to a bad boss, who isn’t fixed by in-person presence.

vidarh 4y ago
There is a severe problem of promoting engineers into management positions and providing no or insufficient training in line management or mentoring, though. A lot of companies with poor training and mentoring culture will get caught out by remote work and struggle to adapt fast enough.
mym1990 4y ago
Caveat being that not many people get to pick who their boss is, and quite frankly I don't know that I've met too many good bosses that toot their own horn. At the end of the day, people should have full accountability for their career and actions, but at a junior level there is a poor baseline for what a good trajectory and a bad trajectory looks like, so room for mistakes is bigger...which should allow people to learn faster.
- AuthorizedCust 4y ago
  > Caveat being that not many people get to pick who their boss is… Orthogonal to my premise. Being in person doesn’t entitle you to pick your boss, either.
  - _vertigo 4y ago
    No, but at least in person it's easier and much more natural to facilitate mentorship opportunities for yourself if your boss isn't so good.
  - mym1990 4y ago
    I am specifically zeroing in on that because there just aren't that many good "bosses" out there, and even fewer great leaders...as much as most bosses think they may be good. If you do have a great boss that takes the time and energy to do mentorship, wonderful! But that leaves us with the rest of the workforce that has average and bad managers...I would bet that remote outcomes for that part of the workforce are not great.

irrational 4y ago

In my opinion, none of it matters. And all of us are expendable. I’ve seen so many projects closed up - and nobody missed them. I’ve seen so many people retire or move on, and they are never missed. Companies are just machines and neither their output nor the cogs of the machine really matter or are missed once they are gone. That is my experience, anyway.

theGnuMe 4y ago
My personal observation is that all companies that succeed, succeed despite themselves. This is basically why you need Product Market Fit. It forgives all sins. It is all that matters. You can even completely fuck up a la Southwest and be totally fine.

908B64B197 4y ago

> But full time remote is a disaster for junior engineers. I used to think the same but realized it's more nuanced than that. There are basically two markets for junior hires: those who can prosper in a remote-first environment (capable of debugging on their own, read doc and ask relevant questions) and those who can't. The contrast is striking. A lot of businesses tried to cut programmer salaried with junior hires from "diverse" pipelines (codeword for bootcamps and certificates) and are now struggling onboarding them in a remote-first environment because of the required handholding. Of course, what the market hasn't figured out yet, is that there's a premium for the later.

tedmiston 4y ago

> But full time remote is a disaster for junior engineers. This is very handwavy. As a principal engineer, I've worked with junior engineers that have adapted just fine and thrived, even as their first or second job out of college. But for that to happen, the company's culture has to be willing and able to shift to remote-first and/or fully remote. The more senior people need to role model the way of how to do remote well in a way that counters its (few) disadvantages. There is definitely a personal component too though. I've also worked with junior engineers that do not work well remotely. But I think that is more personality-based or perhaps maturity-based than seniority-based.

birdymcbird 4y ago
another pe here. i have different opinion. few college new hires already personal trait and past life experiences that give them solid work ethic and ability to focus. some see themselves struggle and have awareness to really see this. many of most of them in my experience want to be in office. then you have remainder who isnt able to dive into company (team) culture or influence it, understand need to deliver and have impact, and become independent contributors. these are good engineers but haven’t figured out that you do have to put in the work. id say the company I was at and the company I joined are both remote first. remote first means different things to different companies, orgs, and even teams. there’s no canonical definition, if you know one please share it. I think group 3 I described desperately needs to be in office. these are like the high school kids who didn’t get to experience high school during COVID. unfortunately the environment is so hyper politicized that this wfh thing is sensitive topic and many companies don’t want to properly address problem head on. its being told as binary choice without taking more nuanced approach

mempko 4y ago

It's true co-located teams do better. Remote is worse. But, for the sake of the climate and environment, we need to eliminate commutes and wasted resources on office buildings.