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People who love remote work seem to be senior, well established employees who were already fully ramped up and had a social foundation in SV before the pandemic

People who love remote work seem to be senior, well established employees who were already fully ramped up and had a social foundation in SV before the pandemic. I left my entire life behind after college to relocate to SV; I loved working with talented engineers and gained so much experience and mentorship in 2019. But remote work was isolating and lonely, mentorship went to zero, and it has caused me a lot of stress realizing that remote work is never going away. It was very sad, but I had to leave SV behind to find a career with people who cared about my success again, rather than preferring remote work for themselves at the expense of less experience engineers having to ping and zoom for every question, with less authentic relationships being formed. Remote work might seem like employees vs the boss, but there are people like me who actually loved their jobs, and now can only do them through a screen alone in a bedroom.

pcurve 4y ago
I'm in my 40s, unattached. Strong introvert. I didn't realize how much I missed going into the office until a few of us had half day in person meeting at office. I wanted to do more of it. Sadly, the office was still mostly empty, so there was no point going in. I left the job. There were other reasons of course, but I want my next job to be at least in-person 3 days a week.
- amalgamated_inc 4y ago
  Try just going to a coffee shop every day as a routine, just to see some actual faces. Works for me.
- yodsanklai 4y ago
  I'm a bit in the same boat. I recently switched to full remote work. In retrospect, I think it was a bad decision. I don't feel I'm a part of the company anymore, and staying home feels lonely. Ironically, I liked to go to the office when my team actually wasn't there! I like to socialise with people from different teams but seeing my teammates is sometimes stressful. Also, I'm a slow thinker and I often prefer to work on problems asynchronously.
  - pcurve 4y ago
    You know, pre-covid when everyone worked at office Mon-Thursday, I also liked going into the office on Friday when no one was around. Something calming about working in a deserted 1500 person office building. I'm also slow thinker as well. I do terrible during those post-it note brainstorming sessions where you have to come up with ideas in response to something. Sometimes I wonder how I managed to work my way up to management.:)
  - bart_spoon 4y ago
    > Ironically, I liked to go to the office when my team actually wasn't there! I like to socialise with people from different teams but seeing my teammates is sometimes stressful. Have you considered a coworking space? Some of the criticisms I see of remote work basically boil down to being completely isolated at home, or a home not being a conducive working environment (as opposed to feeling like they are more productive in office, enjoy being around their coworkers, etc.) I think in these cases the solution isn't necessarily to go into the office, but to simply get out of the house to work. For many this might be a happy medium, allowing you to get out of your home for a good chunk of the day, into an environment with amenities for working, and possibilities for socializing with others, while allowing flexibility to live far away from the office, shortening commutes or housing costs, and not having your daily social life tied to coworkers, which has downsides.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  I'm a remote worker who likes a good (emphasis good) office environment better than working at home. But I prefer WFH nonetheless—because I don't like the office enough to pay five stressful hours of my waking time for it per week (for the commute). That's nearly five percent of my waking hours per week (does hit 5%, if traffic's unusually bad one or two of those days), including weekends. It's more than 6% of my waking hours on a weekday. That's a pretty steep cost, especially since the activity's in no way pleasant and I'm not compensated for it. Then factor in how many hours I'd spend working just to pay for the means to commute....
Manuel_D 4y ago
Remote work is definitely not going to be universal. My company (in Seattle) shifted away from remote work starting in July 2021, and formally went back to 5 days in the office per week as the norm July 2022. My friends on the east coast report that their companies are also moving back to in-person work at least 3 days a week. I do like that COVID has normalized WFH when I have an appointment or something else I need to get done during the day. But I do think that working in person is better and I'm glad it's returning.
MH15 4y ago
I'm finding myself in a similar situation. Moved across the country to an LA tech job for a mostly in-person team less than a year ago. We had a reorg and now most of the new team is remote, manager in eastern time, office empty most days etc. Unsure what to do now to balance career goals.
Operyl 4y ago
I frequently do day trips, or at one point monthly rentals, to various cowork offices to get that interaction with “more senior people.” While I couldn’t ask overly specific questions of those around me, we all tend to help each other the best we could. I don’t live in SV (Florida here), but it was kind of interesting. It’s not a complete solution to the problem you’re describing, of course, but it built network and I have some friendships that grew from it. Also YMMV on how social people are around you, we kind of had an unofficial card system, red meant don’t interrupt and green meant I was open for chatting.
suzzer99 4y ago
As a senior engineer I completely agree with this. A few days/week remote is fine. But full time remote is a disaster for junior engineers. As you alluded to, it's not just easier access to senior engineers. It's also feeling like you're part of something that matters. I've been lucky to have those kinds of jobs in the past. Now I just have a job, I'm fully remote, and I hate it. It would be even worse if I was just starting out. I suspect that some companies will eventually migrate back to a hybrid model because of this. I can't be the only senior engineer who feels this way.
- ericmay 4y ago
  > It's also feeling like you're a part of something that matters. Maybe this assumption needs to change? I do think you and the OP you replied to are correct about it being more difficult for junior engineers, but at the same time it selects for people who don’t need someone to tell them what to do, which would be a good thing for a company depending on the role and such.
  - suzzer99 4y ago
    If a junior engineer isn't pestering me with questions, I know they aren't learning much. Also they overhear stuff and get drawn into conversations. Or more senior engineers join in conversations between them and another senior. All of this is a challenge over zoom. As far as being a part of something that matters, if I'm going to do a job for 8 hours a day, I'd like for it be as fulfilling as possible. For me that means pressure, teamwork, and at least some in-person interaction. I realize not everyone is the same.
    - ericmay 4y ago
      It depends and it’s a balance. Too many questions is a bad sign because it means they aren’t investing time into solving problems on their own (like math, try for 3 minutes give up and look at the back of the book). The nice thing about Slack/Zoom combo is that if you have a highly self-directed engineer and a self-starter then they can spend time working until they truly feel stuck and then connect and share code snippets and do screen shares and calls. Instead of everything having to be a “stop the world” Q/A session you get a nice async communication channel that allows for various levels of triage. That being said I certainly find in-person collaboration to be very valuable, but not so valuable as to drive a car and sit in an office where I can’t wear sweatpants or get up whenever I want to make an espresso or run an errand if I’m stuck on a problem for a bit.
pts_ 4y ago
The problem is workplaces wanting all day presence like a prison and letting families including elder parents go to the dogs. Workplaces should be flexible.
monero-xmr 4y ago
New companies will be formed that are remote-only from Day 1 and stay that way forever. Employees who like remote work should go to these companies. I believe remote-only is superior, as I observe mentorship and frequent communication within my company, as everyone is dedicated to the remote-only mode. I believe that in-person office work is not about communication or mentorship but mostly about providing socialization benefits (chatting, going out to lunch) that are not needed for a company to succeed. "Less authentic relationships" has nothing to do with company success and everything to do with your own personal well-being. The correct move is to build a social life outside of your work - family, friends, community. As a remote only worker my social life is excellent because I did not tie my social well being to any company.
- bcrosby95 4y ago
  One thing to recognize is that people who moved to SV for work, pretty much by definition, put career ahead of friends, community, and likely family. So it shouldn't be surprising that many of them will not like remote work if the whole reason they moved is nullified. I feel lucky to have been born and raised in SV. I can have my cake and eat it too - remote work, in person work, whatever - and I can still go out and have lunch with friends I've had for 30+ years.
  - gumby 4y ago
    > One thing to recognize is that people who moved ... for work, pretty much by definition, put career ahead of friends, community, and likely family. That's a broad and unfair generalization and implication. People decide to move for all sorts of reasons, and then perhaps a job determines a destination. People who move to a cheaper location (which can be young people starting a family or retirees or any life stage in between) are also putting cost or quality of life "ahead of friends, community, and likely family." If you are a person who makes friends you will make friends in your new community. Ubiquitous networking lets you keep in touch to the level you wish with friends and family. When I go back to my home country I see friends with whom we just pick up mid-conversation as if I'd just been over their home the day before. Life has been so for thousands of years. Not necessarily a sacrifice as you frame it.
fhd2 4y ago
It seems a bit cynical to imply that people who care about mentoring juniors prefer to work in an office and selfish people prefer to work remote. Having mentored dozens of engineers, remotely and onsite, my evidence suggests neither approach is entirely superior for everyone, it depends on mentor and mentee. It's just that, your preference - it doesn't have to be sinister or heroic, more or less effective. Some people prefer an office and some don't. That's valid enough on its own, isn't it?
granshaw 4y ago
I think the picture is pretty clear at this point and further discussion is pretty pointless as it just results in the same points keep being brought up: Junior/single/ADHD/work-is-social-circle: REMOTE BAD Senior/married (esp with kids)/prefers-non-work-social-circle: REMOTE GOOD
- suzzer99 4y ago
  Yeah that's basically it. I'm single/senior/ADHD/work-was-social-circle (at previous job). Hate remote full time.
- repeekad 4y ago
  But then how do companies capture both? Offices with only junior, single, social seekers kind of defeats all the benefits that those people are searching for. Do we just leave the first group behind to better benefit the second group?
  - gedy 4y ago
    I'd gladly live near office if I could afford a decent house and schools for a family. Companies won't pay that to make it happen, so yes, I guess it's sorry/not sorry junior devs?
  - treis 4y ago
    I don't think you do. This falls under "irreconcilable differences" and the solution is for people to work at companies that match their preferences.
  - granshaw 4y ago
    Companies will just have to accept more of one of the other depending on their policies. Alternatively they could become such an attractive place to work via other factors that they can attract employees whether remote or not
  - philippejara 4y ago
    I'd be willing to bet a lot more would prefer to have only remote than only in person work, on both demographics. And even if not, seniors are just more important to retain anyway.
synu 4y ago
I realise we are both sharing anecdotes, but I was at GitLab from about 250 employees to 1500 or so. It was all remote from the beginning, and it definitely wasn’t all senior, fully ramped employees with pre-established work social networks in Silicon Valley (or any other single place for that matter). There was mentorship, as well as social events and travel. I’m sure your experience is factual, but maybe it’s not a universal truth or something generally applicable about remote work. One thing for sure I would feel down about is if I moved somewhere I didn’t like to advance my career, and then everyone there started working remotely making the whole move pointless.
- repeekad 4y ago
  SF is disgusting, and SV in general is so expensive to live in and enjoy. It feels unsustainable for a region to profit so much from remote work that itself is so bad to live in if you aren’t already successful. People can just ignore the homeless WFH and uber to their bars and restaurants, with staff who can’t even afford to live there, I had to leave.
deeptote 4y ago
[flagged]
- repeekad 4y ago
  It’s not about a social life outside my job, it’s about also loving my work and enjoying what I do. Anyone can trade time for money and use that money outside work. But true success to me is loving both, and to me that’s not possible without authentic relationships at work.
- dang 4y ago
  We've banned this account for repeatedly posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments, and this time breaking the site guidelines extremely badly. Seriously not cool. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
As a long time software developer, I completely agree on this. I don't necessarily believe that "the office" and long commutes are the right way to employee workers, but I strongly believe that in person relationships tend to work a lot better for knowledge transfer and leveling up skills of junior employees. A solution, the feasibility of which I'm still actively researching, is a network of decentralized much smaller offices managed by a senior employee to meet other people in the area in person, at least once a week or more if deemed necessary by the group. The other thing I completely agree on is that it's not employee vs boss. Many of my colleagues have agreed to a cut of their paycheck to work remotely, which is a net win for every boss out there, they love to pay less for the same output, while also transferring all the expenses and the disadvantages of building a place suited to work at home to the employer. Kinda like a gig economy worker that has to buy a car, pay for the insurance and the maintenance to become a "self employed" Uber driver.
yamtaddle 4y ago
> People who love remote work seem to be senior, well established employees who were already fully ramped up and had a social foundation in SV before the pandemic. I left my entire life behind after college to relocate to SV The other ones who love it are the vast sea of workers who chose to stay near family and friends rather than leaving to chase money in expensive coastal cities. Not being constrained to 3rd-tier-landlocked-city rates is great. [EDIT] Ah, you mean specifically the ones already in (or recently-late-of) SV who love it. I'll leave the comment but it's less-on-topic than I thought on my first reading.
marricks 4y ago
Why do we talk about how it's good for people to have choices except when it comes to choosing to work remotely? It seems like big tech companies are forcing people back into the office so if you need mentorship it's available from established channels. On the other side of the coin, if you're junior, what's it like uprooting your life and social network for a job at a location with probably much higher rent and no existing social network? "Lamenting the junior dev" is pretty much the only compassionate argument for in-person work so of course it's brought up a dozen times on any remote thread on HN. It gets unnerving.
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  Work inherently limits your choices. That’s why they pay you money, it’s an exchange. Likewise I might want to code on Python but my employee has a legacy Java codebase so I’m forced to work with that instead.
almost_usual 4y ago
People who love remote work usually have families. Time is a very limited resource when you have kids. Commuting and socializing with coworkers at lunch or at happy hours gets deprioritized.
- unity1001 4y ago
  > People who love remote work usually have families There are also a lot of people who just want to avoid the commute. With all its loss of time, cognitive load, wear & tear included. Even the non-introvert people do.
jasmer 4y ago
Great point. And I'll bet $100 that people wouldn't mind the office if it was literally across the street. We don't always 'hate the commute' but what if you could just pop in and out as needed? No waiting? Pick up the kids, drop them at home, then back to the office if you want? Home for lunch? No brutal traffic? And - people need their own spaces. The cost of squeezing in everyone on a bench is being born a bit in people not wanting to come back. I literally could not get anything done.
unity1001 4y ago
> People who love remote work seem to be senior, well established employees Being a senior dev also enables you to act almost fully autonomous, making you capable of carrying out a lot of stuff from idea to execution. Its naturally conducive to remote work. > But remote work was isolating and lonely, mentorship went to zero That's the one downside of remote work - one has to amp up interactions via online collaboration tools and also non-work social interactions. > it has caused me a lot of stress realizing that remote work is never going away. Take heart - you can eventually make remote work work out, or a mixture of hybrid that you prefer. Then the benefits outweigh the disadvantages a lot. Even being able to avoid the commute is a major win.
ksec 4y ago
It is funny to read on HN over the past 5 years went from full everything should be remote, non-Remote is for stupid people to now may be going back to in person collaboration has some remote benefits.
- acdha 4y ago
  That’s oversimplifying a lot of the discussions people had about how remote work needs to be organized to be productive. Very few people deny that in-person collaboration is useful but there’s more debate about what fraction of in-office time is actually productive.
nazka 4y ago
I agree. A solution not that great to this but still better than full remote alone is to find a coworking place and start relationships there. You won’t find all the mentorship and it will feel like they can be coworker but unfortunately you will never work with them. But you will still be able to have some social interactions, talk about tech, ask questions, etc…

pcurve 4y ago

I'm in my 40s, unattached. Strong introvert. I didn't realize how much I missed going into the office until a few of us had half day in person meeting at office. I wanted to do more of it. Sadly, the office was still mostly empty, so there was no point going in. I left the job. There were other reasons of course, but I want my next job to be at least in-person 3 days a week.

amalgamated_inc 4y ago
Try just going to a coffee shop every day as a routine, just to see some actual faces. Works for me.
yodsanklai 4y ago
I'm a bit in the same boat. I recently switched to full remote work. In retrospect, I think it was a bad decision. I don't feel I'm a part of the company anymore, and staying home feels lonely. Ironically, I liked to go to the office when my team actually wasn't there! I like to socialise with people from different teams but seeing my teammates is sometimes stressful. Also, I'm a slow thinker and I often prefer to work on problems asynchronously.
- pcurve 4y ago
  You know, pre-covid when everyone worked at office Mon-Thursday, I also liked going into the office on Friday when no one was around. Something calming about working in a deserted 1500 person office building. I'm also slow thinker as well. I do terrible during those post-it note brainstorming sessions where you have to come up with ideas in response to something. Sometimes I wonder how I managed to work my way up to management.:)
- bart_spoon 4y ago
  > Ironically, I liked to go to the office when my team actually wasn't there! I like to socialise with people from different teams but seeing my teammates is sometimes stressful. Have you considered a coworking space? Some of the criticisms I see of remote work basically boil down to being completely isolated at home, or a home not being a conducive working environment (as opposed to feeling like they are more productive in office, enjoy being around their coworkers, etc.) I think in these cases the solution isn't necessarily to go into the office, but to simply get out of the house to work. For many this might be a happy medium, allowing you to get out of your home for a good chunk of the day, into an environment with amenities for working, and possibilities for socializing with others, while allowing flexibility to live far away from the office, shortening commutes or housing costs, and not having your daily social life tied to coworkers, which has downsides.
yamtaddle 4y ago
I'm a remote worker who likes a good (emphasis good) office environment better than working at home. But I prefer WFH nonetheless—because I don't like the office enough to pay five stressful hours of my waking time for it per week (for the commute). That's nearly five percent of my waking hours per week (does hit 5%, if traffic's unusually bad one or two of those days), including weekends. It's more than 6% of my waking hours on a weekday. That's a pretty steep cost, especially since the activity's in no way pleasant and I'm not compensated for it. Then factor in how many hours I'd spend working just to pay for the means to commute....

Manuel_D 4y ago

Remote work is definitely not going to be universal. My company (in Seattle) shifted away from remote work starting in July 2021, and formally went back to 5 days in the office per week as the norm July 2022. My friends on the east coast report that their companies are also moving back to in-person work at least 3 days a week. I do like that COVID has normalized WFH when I have an appointment or something else I need to get done during the day. But I do think that working in person is better and I'm glad it's returning.

MH15 4y ago

I'm finding myself in a similar situation. Moved across the country to an LA tech job for a mostly in-person team less than a year ago. We had a reorg and now most of the new team is remote, manager in eastern time, office empty most days etc. Unsure what to do now to balance career goals.

Operyl 4y ago

I frequently do day trips, or at one point monthly rentals, to various cowork offices to get that interaction with “more senior people.” While I couldn’t ask overly specific questions of those around me, we all tend to help each other the best we could. I don’t live in SV (Florida here), but it was kind of interesting. It’s not a complete solution to the problem you’re describing, of course, but it built network and I have some friendships that grew from it. Also YMMV on how social people are around you, we kind of had an unofficial card system, red meant don’t interrupt and green meant I was open for chatting.

suzzer99 4y ago

As a senior engineer I completely agree with this. A few days/week remote is fine. But full time remote is a disaster for junior engineers. As you alluded to, it's not just easier access to senior engineers. It's also feeling like you're part of something that matters. I've been lucky to have those kinds of jobs in the past. Now I just have a job, I'm fully remote, and I hate it. It would be even worse if I was just starting out. I suspect that some companies will eventually migrate back to a hybrid model because of this. I can't be the only senior engineer who feels this way.

ericmay 4y ago
> It's also feeling like you're a part of something that matters. Maybe this assumption needs to change? I do think you and the OP you replied to are correct about it being more difficult for junior engineers, but at the same time it selects for people who don’t need someone to tell them what to do, which would be a good thing for a company depending on the role and such.
- suzzer99 4y ago
  If a junior engineer isn't pestering me with questions, I know they aren't learning much. Also they overhear stuff and get drawn into conversations. Or more senior engineers join in conversations between them and another senior. All of this is a challenge over zoom. As far as being a part of something that matters, if I'm going to do a job for 8 hours a day, I'd like for it be as fulfilling as possible. For me that means pressure, teamwork, and at least some in-person interaction. I realize not everyone is the same.
  - ericmay 4y ago
    It depends and it’s a balance. Too many questions is a bad sign because it means they aren’t investing time into solving problems on their own (like math, try for 3 minutes give up and look at the back of the book). The nice thing about Slack/Zoom combo is that if you have a highly self-directed engineer and a self-starter then they can spend time working until they truly feel stuck and then connect and share code snippets and do screen shares and calls. Instead of everything having to be a “stop the world” Q/A session you get a nice async communication channel that allows for various levels of triage. That being said I certainly find in-person collaboration to be very valuable, but not so valuable as to drive a car and sit in an office where I can’t wear sweatpants or get up whenever I want to make an espresso or run an errand if I’m stuck on a problem for a bit.

pts_ 4y ago

The problem is workplaces wanting all day presence like a prison and letting families including elder parents go to the dogs. Workplaces should be flexible.

monero-xmr 4y ago

New companies will be formed that are remote-only from Day 1 and stay that way forever. Employees who like remote work should go to these companies. I believe remote-only is superior, as I observe mentorship and frequent communication within my company, as everyone is dedicated to the remote-only mode. I believe that in-person office work is not about communication or mentorship but mostly about providing socialization benefits (chatting, going out to lunch) that are not needed for a company to succeed. "Less authentic relationships" has nothing to do with company success and everything to do with your own personal well-being. The correct move is to build a social life outside of your work - family, friends, community. As a remote only worker my social life is excellent because I did not tie my social well being to any company.

bcrosby95 4y ago
One thing to recognize is that people who moved to SV for work, pretty much by definition, put career ahead of friends, community, and likely family. So it shouldn't be surprising that many of them will not like remote work if the whole reason they moved is nullified. I feel lucky to have been born and raised in SV. I can have my cake and eat it too - remote work, in person work, whatever - and I can still go out and have lunch with friends I've had for 30+ years.
- gumby 4y ago
  > One thing to recognize is that people who moved ... for work, pretty much by definition, put career ahead of friends, community, and likely family. That's a broad and unfair generalization and implication. People decide to move for all sorts of reasons, and then perhaps a job determines a destination. People who move to a cheaper location (which can be young people starting a family or retirees or any life stage in between) are also putting cost or quality of life "ahead of friends, community, and likely family." If you are a person who makes friends you will make friends in your new community. Ubiquitous networking lets you keep in touch to the level you wish with friends and family. When I go back to my home country I see friends with whom we just pick up mid-conversation as if I'd just been over their home the day before. Life has been so for thousands of years. Not necessarily a sacrifice as you frame it.

fhd2 4y ago

It seems a bit cynical to imply that people who care about mentoring juniors prefer to work in an office and selfish people prefer to work remote. Having mentored dozens of engineers, remotely and onsite, my evidence suggests neither approach is entirely superior for everyone, it depends on mentor and mentee. It's just that, your preference - it doesn't have to be sinister or heroic, more or less effective. Some people prefer an office and some don't. That's valid enough on its own, isn't it?

granshaw 4y ago

I think the picture is pretty clear at this point and further discussion is pretty pointless as it just results in the same points keep being brought up: Junior/single/ADHD/work-is-social-circle: REMOTE BAD Senior/married (esp with kids)/prefers-non-work-social-circle: REMOTE GOOD

suzzer99 4y ago
Yeah that's basically it. I'm single/senior/ADHD/work-was-social-circle (at previous job). Hate remote full time.
repeekad 4y ago
But then how do companies capture both? Offices with only junior, single, social seekers kind of defeats all the benefits that those people are searching for. Do we just leave the first group behind to better benefit the second group?
- gedy 4y ago
  I'd gladly live near office if I could afford a decent house and schools for a family. Companies won't pay that to make it happen, so yes, I guess it's sorry/not sorry junior devs?
- treis 4y ago
  I don't think you do. This falls under "irreconcilable differences" and the solution is for people to work at companies that match their preferences.
- granshaw 4y ago
  Companies will just have to accept more of one of the other depending on their policies. Alternatively they could become such an attractive place to work via other factors that they can attract employees whether remote or not
- philippejara 4y ago
  I'd be willing to bet a lot more would prefer to have only remote than only in person work, on both demographics. And even if not, seniors are just more important to retain anyway.

synu 4y ago

I realise we are both sharing anecdotes, but I was at GitLab from about 250 employees to 1500 or so. It was all remote from the beginning, and it definitely wasn’t all senior, fully ramped employees with pre-established work social networks in Silicon Valley (or any other single place for that matter). There was mentorship, as well as social events and travel. I’m sure your experience is factual, but maybe it’s not a universal truth or something generally applicable about remote work. One thing for sure I would feel down about is if I moved somewhere I didn’t like to advance my career, and then everyone there started working remotely making the whole move pointless.

repeekad 4y ago
SF is disgusting, and SV in general is so expensive to live in and enjoy. It feels unsustainable for a region to profit so much from remote work that itself is so bad to live in if you aren’t already successful. People can just ignore the homeless WFH and uber to their bars and restaurants, with staff who can’t even afford to live there, I had to leave.

deeptote 4y ago

[flagged]

repeekad 4y ago
It’s not about a social life outside my job, it’s about also loving my work and enjoying what I do. Anyone can trade time for money and use that money outside work. But true success to me is loving both, and to me that’s not possible without authentic relationships at work.
dang 4y ago
We've banned this account for repeatedly posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments, and this time breaking the site guidelines extremely badly. Seriously not cool. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

As a long time software developer, I completely agree on this. I don't necessarily believe that "the office" and long commutes are the right way to employee workers, but I strongly believe that in person relationships tend to work a lot better for knowledge transfer and leveling up skills of junior employees. A solution, the feasibility of which I'm still actively researching, is a network of decentralized much smaller offices managed by a senior employee to meet other people in the area in person, at least once a week or more if deemed necessary by the group. The other thing I completely agree on is that it's not employee vs boss. Many of my colleagues have agreed to a cut of their paycheck to work remotely, which is a net win for every boss out there, they love to pay less for the same output, while also transferring all the expenses and the disadvantages of building a place suited to work at home to the employer. Kinda like a gig economy worker that has to buy a car, pay for the insurance and the maintenance to become a "self employed" Uber driver.

yamtaddle 4y ago

> People who love remote work seem to be senior, well established employees who were already fully ramped up and had a social foundation in SV before the pandemic. I left my entire life behind after college to relocate to SV The other ones who love it are the vast sea of workers who chose to stay near family and friends rather than leaving to chase money in expensive coastal cities. Not being constrained to 3rd-tier-landlocked-city rates is great. [EDIT] Ah, you mean specifically the ones already in (or recently-late-of) SV who love it. I'll leave the comment but it's less-on-topic than I thought on my first reading.

marricks 4y ago

Why do we talk about how it's good for people to have choices except when it comes to choosing to work remotely? It seems like big tech companies are forcing people back into the office so if you need mentorship it's available from established channels. On the other side of the coin, if you're junior, what's it like uprooting your life and social network for a job at a location with probably much higher rent and no existing social network? "Lamenting the junior dev" is pretty much the only compassionate argument for in-person work so of course it's brought up a dozen times on any remote thread on HN. It gets unnerving.

zeroonetwothree 4y ago
Work inherently limits your choices. That’s why they pay you money, it’s an exchange. Likewise I might want to code on Python but my employee has a legacy Java codebase so I’m forced to work with that instead.

almost_usual 4y ago

People who love remote work usually have families. Time is a very limited resource when you have kids. Commuting and socializing with coworkers at lunch or at happy hours gets deprioritized.

unity1001 4y ago
> People who love remote work usually have families There are also a lot of people who just want to avoid the commute. With all its loss of time, cognitive load, wear & tear included. Even the non-introvert people do.

jasmer 4y ago

Great point. And I'll bet $100 that people wouldn't mind the office if it was literally across the street. We don't always 'hate the commute' but what if you could just pop in and out as needed? No waiting? Pick up the kids, drop them at home, then back to the office if you want? Home for lunch? No brutal traffic? And - people need their own spaces. The cost of squeezing in everyone on a bench is being born a bit in people not wanting to come back. I literally could not get anything done.

unity1001 4y ago

> People who love remote work seem to be senior, well established employees Being a senior dev also enables you to act almost fully autonomous, making you capable of carrying out a lot of stuff from idea to execution. Its naturally conducive to remote work. > But remote work was isolating and lonely, mentorship went to zero That's the one downside of remote work - one has to amp up interactions via online collaboration tools and also non-work social interactions. > it has caused me a lot of stress realizing that remote work is never going away. Take heart - you can eventually make remote work work out, or a mixture of hybrid that you prefer. Then the benefits outweigh the disadvantages a lot. Even being able to avoid the commute is a major win.

ksec 4y ago

It is funny to read on HN over the past 5 years went from full everything should be remote, non-Remote is for stupid people to now may be going back to in person collaboration has some remote benefits.

acdha 4y ago
That’s oversimplifying a lot of the discussions people had about how remote work needs to be organized to be productive. Very few people deny that in-person collaboration is useful but there’s more debate about what fraction of in-office time is actually productive.

nazka 4y ago

I agree. A solution not that great to this but still better than full remote alone is to find a coworking place and start relationships there. You won’t find all the mentorship and it will feel like they can be coworker but unfortunately you will never work with them. But you will still be able to have some social interactions, talk about tech, ask questions, etc…