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Failure to create and enforce laws that prevent human trafficking fall squarely on government, and subsequently the people who choose cost as the main priority

Failure to create and enforce laws that prevent human trafficking fall squarely on government, and subsequently the people who choose cost as the main priority when purchasing a product or service and then vote for representatives that ensure cheap goods continue to flow. Blaming “the market” is similar to not taking responsibility for climate change by demanding government action and changing your own habits. Until we look in the mirror, there can be no change or progress.

michaelt 4y ago
Yes and no. If modern slavery has slaves picking fruit in the UK or working in brothels in Germany or washing cars in France, that's absolutely something those governments could crack down on, I agree. On the other hand, if some lithium is mined by slaves and, after going through a complex supply chain spread across a bunch of countries, some of it ends up in devices that make their way to the Spain, or lowers world lithium prices benefiting Spanish consumers indirectly - the fact the slavery happened outside of Spain's jurisdiction makes it far more difficult for Spain to to throw the slavers in jail.
- ericmay 4y ago
  If Spain doesn’t know that it is occurring there isn’t anything they can do. If Spain does know that it’s occurring they can ban products or fine/jail the manufacturer. As an example (and not one I largely agree with) if Nike is using child labor in a sweatshop to build shoes, Nike has a HQ in the US, the executives and corporate workers live in the US, and they import products to the US. Enough said there. That’s strictly a failure of the US government to regulate and enforce regulations. Nike may be morally apprehensive, but like a parent, you are responsible for your child. On the other end if a country is engaging in slavery or various derivatives of it, it’s still the fault of that government for allowing slavery to take place. If it’s a failed state then we have an obligation to not trade with that state, or perhaps even engage in nation building activities in an extreme case. There are always things we can do. We simply choose not to as a people and by extension as a government. Unfortunately human nature and cognitive dissonance play a leading role in this and they are very, very good actors on the stage.
  - michaelt 4y ago
    > If Spain does know that it’s occurring they can ban products or fine/jail the manufacturer. Spain has heard that some slavery is used by Subcontractor A at Mine B in Zimbabwe, which sells to Distributor C which also works with Mines D, E and F and sells bulk lithium on the international lithium markets where distributors G and H also sell, and where Battery Factory I buys some of their lithium but they also buy from J and K, and they manufacture cells under contract for battery brand L which sells them to home solar battery assembler M who also buy cells from brands N and O and actually only sell things ex-works in China, and Reseller P imports them into the EU. Subcontractor A says the reports of slavery were wrong, that was actually perfectly legal prison labour. Mine B says actually they no longer work with Subcontractor A, and a local government inspector has certified them as slavery-free. Between C and O all the bulk materials get commingled, records occasionally get a bit mixed up, and precise sourcing details are commercially confidential. The battery reaches the shores of the EU with no known links to slavery.
    - ericmay 4y ago
      > If Spain doesn’t know that it is occurring there isn’t anything they can do.
      - chii 4y ago
        > It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It -- Upton Sinclair
Frost1x 4y ago
>Failure to create and enforce laws that prevent human trafficking fall squarely on government, and subsequently the people who choose cost as the main priority when purchasing a product or service and then vote for representatives that ensure cheap goods continue to flow. Producers have responsibility as well. Government should enforce such laws and consumers, in an idealistic sense, should be able to choose products and services that don't require slavery. Meanwhile, pretending that as a producer or supplier, I have no power or choice in the selection of labor is a farce at best. Every participant in a given market has some degree of responsibility. The market itself is a system of policies, regulations, actions, and so on contributed to not solely by government or its constituents but also by private entities that have financial influence in policy making, often more than the people we're looking at in the mirror. Yes, as a consumer I have some responsibility and yes, governments have some responsibility as well, but so do other players like businesses and the very structure of the policies, regulations, and even incentives in a given market structure. Ignoring these is just passing blame along to others. It's critically important to realize that not everyone has the same weight of influence in a given market. I can look in the mirror all day but the influence in my choice of a my potential future EV purchase has miniscule sway relative to the opinions of someone like, say Elon Musk with a mountain of resources and influence.
- ericmay 4y ago
  This is the “my vote doesn’t count” syndrome. Nobody will do anything because they think someone else will save them or make the decision for them such that their lifestyle doesn’t have to change. The truth is that the people demand cheap goods based on slavery and human suffering. It’s what society actually wants. I’m not saying businesses are absolved of responsibility, but if they are acting poorly it’s our responsibility to change that behavior. But how can we do that when we don’t actually want them to change? Until the US government makes Nike stop using child labor to make sneakers, I’m not going to get mad at Nike either. Everyone is getting what they want except those who we treat poorly (oversimplification). Nike makes money, you get your new shoes every year for cheap, and the US government doesn’t have to do anything or risk have people voted out of office. The more quickly we all come to understand this and stop trying to shift blame the more quickly we can actually solve problems. Until then we will keep buying our Nike shoes and complain about child labor and not actually do anything. If you don’t like these things like child labor, you can minimize what products you buy and where you buy them from. If you don’t like factory farming then yea suck it up like I do and pay more for eggs. Put your money where your morals are.

michaelt 4y ago

Yes and no. If modern slavery has slaves picking fruit in the UK or working in brothels in Germany or washing cars in France, that's absolutely something those governments could crack down on, I agree. On the other hand, if some lithium is mined by slaves and, after going through a complex supply chain spread across a bunch of countries, some of it ends up in devices that make their way to the Spain, or lowers world lithium prices benefiting Spanish consumers indirectly - the fact the slavery happened outside of Spain's jurisdiction makes it far more difficult for Spain to to throw the slavers in jail.

ericmay 4y ago
If Spain doesn’t know that it is occurring there isn’t anything they can do. If Spain does know that it’s occurring they can ban products or fine/jail the manufacturer. As an example (and not one I largely agree with) if Nike is using child labor in a sweatshop to build shoes, Nike has a HQ in the US, the executives and corporate workers live in the US, and they import products to the US. Enough said there. That’s strictly a failure of the US government to regulate and enforce regulations. Nike may be morally apprehensive, but like a parent, you are responsible for your child. On the other end if a country is engaging in slavery or various derivatives of it, it’s still the fault of that government for allowing slavery to take place. If it’s a failed state then we have an obligation to not trade with that state, or perhaps even engage in nation building activities in an extreme case. There are always things we can do. We simply choose not to as a people and by extension as a government. Unfortunately human nature and cognitive dissonance play a leading role in this and they are very, very good actors on the stage.
- michaelt 4y ago
  > If Spain does know that it’s occurring they can ban products or fine/jail the manufacturer. Spain has heard that some slavery is used by Subcontractor A at Mine B in Zimbabwe, which sells to Distributor C which also works with Mines D, E and F and sells bulk lithium on the international lithium markets where distributors G and H also sell, and where Battery Factory I buys some of their lithium but they also buy from J and K, and they manufacture cells under contract for battery brand L which sells them to home solar battery assembler M who also buy cells from brands N and O and actually only sell things ex-works in China, and Reseller P imports them into the EU. Subcontractor A says the reports of slavery were wrong, that was actually perfectly legal prison labour. Mine B says actually they no longer work with Subcontractor A, and a local government inspector has certified them as slavery-free. Between C and O all the bulk materials get commingled, records occasionally get a bit mixed up, and precise sourcing details are commercially confidential. The battery reaches the shores of the EU with no known links to slavery.
  - ericmay 4y ago
    > If Spain doesn’t know that it is occurring there isn’t anything they can do.
    - chii 4y ago
      > It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It -- Upton Sinclair

Frost1x 4y ago

>Failure to create and enforce laws that prevent human trafficking fall squarely on government, and subsequently the people who choose cost as the main priority when purchasing a product or service and then vote for representatives that ensure cheap goods continue to flow. Producers have responsibility as well. Government should enforce such laws and consumers, in an idealistic sense, should be able to choose products and services that don't require slavery. Meanwhile, pretending that as a producer or supplier, I have no power or choice in the selection of labor is a farce at best. Every participant in a given market has some degree of responsibility. The market itself is a system of policies, regulations, actions, and so on contributed to not solely by government or its constituents but also by private entities that have financial influence in policy making, often more than the people we're looking at in the mirror. Yes, as a consumer I have some responsibility and yes, governments have some responsibility as well, but so do other players like businesses and the very structure of the policies, regulations, and even incentives in a given market structure. Ignoring these is just passing blame along to others. It's critically important to realize that not everyone has the same weight of influence in a given market. I can look in the mirror all day but the influence in my choice of a my potential future EV purchase has miniscule sway relative to the opinions of someone like, say Elon Musk with a mountain of resources and influence.

ericmay 4y ago
This is the “my vote doesn’t count” syndrome. Nobody will do anything because they think someone else will save them or make the decision for them such that their lifestyle doesn’t have to change. The truth is that the people demand cheap goods based on slavery and human suffering. It’s what society actually wants. I’m not saying businesses are absolved of responsibility, but if they are acting poorly it’s our responsibility to change that behavior. But how can we do that when we don’t actually want them to change? Until the US government makes Nike stop using child labor to make sneakers, I’m not going to get mad at Nike either. Everyone is getting what they want except those who we treat poorly (oversimplification). Nike makes money, you get your new shoes every year for cheap, and the US government doesn’t have to do anything or risk have people voted out of office. The more quickly we all come to understand this and stop trying to shift blame the more quickly we can actually solve problems. Until then we will keep buying our Nike shoes and complain about child labor and not actually do anything. If you don’t like these things like child labor, you can minimize what products you buy and where you buy them from. If you don’t like factory farming then yea suck it up like I do and pay more for eggs. Put your money where your morals are.