8 ms·

It is a good project though...A very elegant account model, Rust in action, engineering practices that make sense for becoming the fastest chain in the market..

by m00dy 4y ago

It is a good project though...A very elegant account model, Rust in action, engineering practices that make sense for becoming the fastest chain in the market...And then, SBF showed up and shit hit the fan.

agd 4y ago
I don’t understand the value of Solana. Crypto’s value (at least in part) depends on it being decentralised. I.e trustless. Solana looks like it was relatively centralised, so what’s the point? And why would it be worth much even before FTX collapse?
- oneoff786 4y ago
  The value of crypto to many people was the fact that other people were willing to give them dollars for it.
  - andirk 4y ago
    Seeing as stonks trade for often >40x the company's actual output, sounds pretty similar, doesn't it? Most coins should be worth a fraction of their traded value, and the same with Wall Street. The keyword is speculation that it will eventually catch up to its bullshit traded value. We learned that in 2008, and a lot of people lost their savings and the roofs over their children, then a few years later we completely forgot and now act like crypto invented the idea of trading bullshit.
    - ffssffss 4y ago
      Sure, it's kind of like really crappy penny stocks that are in danger of being delisted and probably doing fraud. But real companies have cashflows and assets, get audited by real auditors, hire real employees instead of teenage "anons", etc. It's actually pretty different!
      - andirk 4y ago
        Agreed. Shitcoins are like pennny stocks but not even audited or held to much scrutiny at all. It's more like investing in a github repo. There are, however, plenty of real projects backed by real money with real employees, open books, and have proven resilient over these handful of years. If the economy gets pumped full of fakeass USD causing stonks and crypto to triple up, I'm not going to be one to say "Yeah that value is so real". My fave stonk Square (SQ) (I refuse to call it block), has net me several boatloads of money since day 1, and now it's dropped to only a couple boatloads. Does that mean it's now bullshit? No. It means the economy has a mind of its own and let's not pretend it makes much sense. It's more powered by emotion and guessing than actual worth.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        RC_ITR 4y ago
        > There are, however, plenty of real projects backed by real money with real employees, open books, and have proven resilient over these handful of years. Citation needed, especially considering what’s been going on with BNB
      - dinkumthinkum 4y ago
        Well, right. And real companies don’t just have cheer leaders on YouTube making videos of being on team “X-coin” and having tons of followers like a cult trying artificially prop up the value so they can dump it on sone sucker. It’s really amazing.
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      > Seeing as stonks trade for often >40x the company's actual output, sounds pretty similar, doesn't it? Most coins should be worth a fraction of their traded value, and the same with Wall Street. Well for one “40x their output” is meaningless. Ideally stocks are valued at their expected net present value of future dividends; implicitly assuming it’s baked in for growth stocks. Second, I don’t care at all what you think is overvalued. The question was “why was this thing valued without crypto fundamentals?” And the answer is because the market cares very little for those things.
      - andirk 4y ago
        > I don’t care at all what you think is overvalued K that's the topic of this conversation.
        oneoff786 4y ago
        Read again. The topic of this thread is “why do things have value”.
    - dinkumthinkum 4y ago
      What is happening in crypto is that libertarian and other anti-“the system” nerds are just rediscovering scams and schemes from the 1800s.
  - biscottigelato 4y ago
    If you don't count Bitcoin that's true. Bitcoin is used as a tool against French colonial CFA Franc in Africa. A a lifeline to access the outside financial world for citizens of countries under sanction. https://iharare.com/african-countries-are-no-strangers-to-the-use-of-bitcoin/ https://iharare.com/african-countries-are-no-strangers-to-th...
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      The fact that some people have a valid use case does not refute my claim
    - Retric 4y ago
      All of that added up to a trivial number of useful transactions which should be obvious when you consider how few transactions per day the protocol could handle globally and how expensive transaction fees often became.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - hn_zorba 4y ago
      There's no mention of CFA Francs in that article? Also the bitcoin experiment that this article briefly talks about has since become a failure - though that's probably more on the incompetence of the rollout than bitcoin.
    - AnAfrican 4y ago
      >Bitcoin is used as a tool against French colonial CFA Franc in Africa. That's a new one. Sure there are some crypto enthusiasts/ scammers (those are not necessarily the same people) trying to push some convoluted argument related to the CFA but this is super niche at best. And furthermore, if anyone would actually use crypto in the CFA area, it would be as a mean to circumvent the exchange control and acquire Euros/Dollars. That's not exactly fighting "colonial money", is it ?
- honkler 4y ago
  the value of solana was that there were bigger fools out there who would buy your coin from you. We have a word for it, I can't remember...ugh.. something related to pharoah...egypt...scheme..
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
    It's really more of a Ponzi scheme than a pyramid scheme, technically.
    - imtringued 4y ago
      A Ponzi scheme implies that there is someone who manages your investment though. A pyramid scheme only implies that the number of investors must keep growing.
- wmf 4y ago
  Crypto's value depends on the perception of decentralization which is more marketing that science. In crypto, "relatively centralized" is the same as "decentralized enough".
  - vitalurk 4y ago
    In the current take on crypto, sure. Idk if I would call that success though!
- nailer 4y ago
  Solana now has a higher Nakamoto coefficient (decentralisation score) than the Eth L2s.
  - TimJRobinson 4y ago
    Well yea, Ethereum L2s are all just one sequencer ATM. The point an L2s is they are secured by Ethereum, not be their own consensus. They have an escape hatch so if they ever go down / disappear / attempt to steal all the money - then anyone can force a withdraw to Ethereum and be safe. If Solana goes down there's nothing you can do.
    - nailer 4y ago
      I should probably have also pointed out that Sol has a greater Nakamoto coefficient than eth.
- TimJRobinson 4y ago
  - Some people want a chain half way between Ethereum and AWS. Games items for example don't need all the security of Ethereum. - 90% of crypto is still speculators who only care about cashing out before the collapse, if Solana lives only a few years that is fine by them.
  - me_again 4y ago
    The more cynical view: many people had no technical need for a chain whatever, but wanted to “rub some crypto” on their project to get some hype-driven cash.
- dinkumthinkum 4y ago
  The value of crypto is based on the concept of pump and dump.
- nailer 4y ago
  It's fast and cheap, had the most active wallets of any blockchain, and when you actually measure it it's more decentralised than all the eth layer 2s. https://youtu.be/5NDs3Il2J3Q?list=RDCMUC9AdQPUe4BdVJ8M9X7wxHUA&t=316 https://youtu.be/5NDs3Il2J3Q?list=RDCMUC9AdQPUe4BdVJ8M9X7wxH...
shp0ngle 4y ago
Facebook’s Libra was in Rust too
- baby 4y ago
  A lot of cryptocurrencies are in Rust these days. Half of the crypto stack of Mina is, Sui is, Linera is, Grin is, Penumbra is, etc.
  - quotha 4y ago
    Grin? Haven’t heard about grin in ages. I used to run a node, thinking about bringing it back online.
    - tromp 4y ago
      Grin is that rare blockchain focussed on simplicity and fairness [1]. [1] https://np.reddit.com/r/grincoin/comments/ug70ft/are_there_any_public_cryptocurrencyblockchain/ https://np.reddit.com/r/grincoin/comments/ug70ft/are_there_a...
  - sph 4y ago
    In fact, good luck finding a Rust job these days that doesn't involve crypto.
    - philippejara 4y ago
      to be fair it's pretty surprising you can find rust jobs at all, a luxury most languages lack
  - galfarragem 4y ago
    Programming languages of top 100 crypto projects: https://github.com/slowernews/notebook/blob/master/on-crypto.md https://github.com/slowernews/notebook/blob/master/on-crypto...
baby 4y ago
I tried learning a bit more of the project and couldn’t understand the design decision and how it led to the claimed throughput numbers. Then I found Shoup’s take[1] and it all made sense. Highly recommend reading it. [1]: https://www.shoup.net/papers/poh.pdf https://www.shoup.net/papers/poh.pdf
- ChadNauseam 4y ago
  From the paper: > Indeed, a proof-of-stake protocol enjoys many of the benefits, in terms of efficiency, of permissioned protocols; moreover, while it is less centralized than a traditional permissioned protocol, it is not nearly as decentralized as a truly permissionless protocol, such as Bitcoin. I hear this take often, but I have no idea why it would lead to less decentralization in practice. PoS means that someone needs to transfer you some of the native token before you can participate in consensus, but there's no practical way for a cabal of validators to stop someone from doing that if there's even one person with Eth willing to sell to you. That doesn't really seem different in practice from having to find someone willing to sell you a mining rig.
  - TimJRobinson 4y ago
    Solana isn't more centralized because of PoS, it's because it has extremely high validator requirements (including a 300Mbps internet connection, which rules out running one in most homes). You could argue that PoW has natural attrition of validators because ASICS improve over time which gives more opportunity to enter the market, but that is secondary to the high validator requirements.
    - kkielhofner 4y ago
      I used to run a Solana validator. After compiling the Solana perf libs for my installed version of CUDA Solana consistently used at least 75% of my RTX 3090. For a validator. Solana validator hardware requirements are incredibly high compared to anything else I'm familiar with.
      - 4y ago
britneybitch 4y ago
It feels like Solana is moving fast and breaking things a little too much for a project that has to do with money. Uptime should be a competitive advantage for decentralized networks, but the Solana network went down 12 times in the first 6 months of this year[1]. Even Rust couldn't save them. [1]: https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/solana-cryptocurrency-has-second-outage-in-a-month-causing-12-percent-dip-in-value/ https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/solana-cryptocurr...
- ErikAugust 4y ago
  Did it go down 12 times for technical reasons or was it intentionally pulled down? Something to wonder about.
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    Doesn't sound very decentralized at all...
    - nailer 4y ago
      No it just had bugs that got fixed. Decentralisation does not imply perfection.
  - quanticle 4y ago
    Is there a difference? A decentralized protocol that can be DOS'd by a reasonably successful criminal gang isn't all that useful.
  - imtringued 4y ago
    It goes down for an incredibly stupid decision. Transactions on Solana are free so spammers can produce millions of transactions per second and at some point validators simply crash. Solana has subsecond transaction processing so a validator being down for more than a second counts as a downtime whereas with Bitcoin a block taking two hours to mine is completely normal. Bitcoin doesn't have the concept of "downtime" only the concept of delaying the next block.
- 4y ago
wslh 4y ago
At our company we don't think account is an elegant model. There are many different things called account in Solana. This is a presentation from our Spanish speaking team talking about Solana from a critical developer approach: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1icRB_oYx_eIF5ytYTb94XMA3tJcQqbOwv49yk4gaKGY/edit#slide=id.g124fbe5877b_0_75 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1icRB_oYx_eIF5ytYTb94... The slide #6 talks about the different things called account. You can easily translate it if you don't speak Spanish.
- m00dy 4y ago
  Well, the accounting model is not about naming...It is about detecting dependent transactions very early so you can figure out how many can go into a block in parallel. Another one I like is the pricing model, a.k.a rent. You pay the rent, and your account survives in the chain. Once you are done, you stop paying rent, and the runtime sweeps your account under the carpet. (you can also create your account rent-exempt and get all the money back).
sneak 4y ago
You can't run a solana node behind nat, last I looked, because it uses some weird custom udp protocol that doesn't work right behind nat. That's where my experimentation with the chain stopped.
- Galanwe 4y ago
  This is a common problem for any peer to peer protocol. Doesn't really strike me as a problem though, it just means the client has responsibility of opening a port. Considering the complication of adding 1000s of hole punching strategies in the protocol, it's a fine trade-off.
  - sneak 4y ago
    Not really. Bitcoind and geth work just fine behind NAT. They have no hole punching strategies in the protocol at all.
    - Galanwe 4y ago
      Hu yes they do. Last I checked they both had NAT traversal through UPnP. I remember that years ago bitcoin even had peer discovery through IRC channels in case UPnP was disabled.
      - sneak 4y ago
        1) UPnP isn't part of the p2p protocol and 2) even in the case where UPnP fails and there is no inbound connectivity, bitcoind works and syncs fine with only outbound connections Solana won't even sync behind nat.
encryptluks2 4y ago
I don't think so. I don't believe any Blockchain has as much instability as Solana and security breaches as the Solana ecosystem. Then look at how many projects FTX and Alameda owned or were invested in and all the hacks involving their projects and the questionable auditing companies like OtterSec.
- rvz 4y ago
  > Then look at how many projects FTX and Alameda owned or were invested in and all the hacks involving their projects and the questionable auditing companies like OtterSec. I would expect breaches in many Solana projects just as I would in other blockchain projects but after looking at this more in both here [0] and here [1] it is more Ethereum projects that have shown to have these hacks for years (due to it being there longer than other projects). I have not seen the overall blockchain(s) of Ethereum or Solana getting outright hacked at the core. But Polygon comes to mind as a highly centralized chain which got its whole chain breached [2] requiring the developers with access to the chain to force a silent update on validators. That doesn't look 'decentralized' or 'secure' to me on the core level of a blockchain in the case of Polygon which another VC and FTX funded chain. [0] https://web3isgoinggreat.com https://web3isgoinggreat.com [1] https://rekt.news https://rekt.news [2] https://polygon.technology/blog/all-you-need-to-know-about-the-recent-network-upgrade https://polygon.technology/blog/all-you-need-to-know-about-t...

by m00dy 4y ago

agd 4y ago

I don’t understand the value of Solana. Crypto’s value (at least in part) depends on it being decentralised. I.e trustless. Solana looks like it was relatively centralised, so what’s the point? And why would it be worth much even before FTX collapse?

oneoff786 4y ago
The value of crypto to many people was the fact that other people were willing to give them dollars for it.
- andirk 4y ago
  Seeing as stonks trade for often >40x the company's actual output, sounds pretty similar, doesn't it? Most coins should be worth a fraction of their traded value, and the same with Wall Street. The keyword is speculation that it will eventually catch up to its bullshit traded value. We learned that in 2008, and a lot of people lost their savings and the roofs over their children, then a few years later we completely forgot and now act like crypto invented the idea of trading bullshit.
  - ffssffss 4y ago
    Sure, it's kind of like really crappy penny stocks that are in danger of being delisted and probably doing fraud. But real companies have cashflows and assets, get audited by real auditors, hire real employees instead of teenage "anons", etc. It's actually pretty different!
    - andirk 4y ago
      Agreed. Shitcoins are like pennny stocks but not even audited or held to much scrutiny at all. It's more like investing in a github repo. There are, however, plenty of real projects backed by real money with real employees, open books, and have proven resilient over these handful of years. If the economy gets pumped full of fakeass USD causing stonks and crypto to triple up, I'm not going to be one to say "Yeah that value is so real". My fave stonk Square (SQ) (I refuse to call it block), has net me several boatloads of money since day 1, and now it's dropped to only a couple boatloads. Does that mean it's now bullshit? No. It means the economy has a mind of its own and let's not pretend it makes much sense. It's more powered by emotion and guessing than actual worth.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - RC_ITR 4y ago
        > There are, however, plenty of real projects backed by real money with real employees, open books, and have proven resilient over these handful of years. Citation needed, especially considering what’s been going on with BNB
    - dinkumthinkum 4y ago
      Well, right. And real companies don’t just have cheer leaders on YouTube making videos of being on team “X-coin” and having tons of followers like a cult trying artificially prop up the value so they can dump it on sone sucker. It’s really amazing.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    > Seeing as stonks trade for often >40x the company's actual output, sounds pretty similar, doesn't it? Most coins should be worth a fraction of their traded value, and the same with Wall Street. Well for one “40x their output” is meaningless. Ideally stocks are valued at their expected net present value of future dividends; implicitly assuming it’s baked in for growth stocks. Second, I don’t care at all what you think is overvalued. The question was “why was this thing valued without crypto fundamentals?” And the answer is because the market cares very little for those things.
    - andirk 4y ago
      > I don’t care at all what you think is overvalued K that's the topic of this conversation.
      - oneoff786 4y ago
        Read again. The topic of this thread is “why do things have value”.
  - dinkumthinkum 4y ago
    What is happening in crypto is that libertarian and other anti-“the system” nerds are just rediscovering scams and schemes from the 1800s.
- biscottigelato 4y ago
  If you don't count Bitcoin that's true. Bitcoin is used as a tool against French colonial CFA Franc in Africa. A a lifeline to access the outside financial world for citizens of countries under sanction. https://iharare.com/african-countries-are-no-strangers-to-the-use-of-bitcoin/ https://iharare.com/african-countries-are-no-strangers-to-th...
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    The fact that some people have a valid use case does not refute my claim
  - Retric 4y ago
    All of that added up to a trivial number of useful transactions which should be obvious when you consider how few transactions per day the protocol could handle globally and how expensive transaction fees often became.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - hn_zorba 4y ago
    There's no mention of CFA Francs in that article? Also the bitcoin experiment that this article briefly talks about has since become a failure - though that's probably more on the incompetence of the rollout than bitcoin.
  - AnAfrican 4y ago
    >Bitcoin is used as a tool against French colonial CFA Franc in Africa. That's a new one. Sure there are some crypto enthusiasts/ scammers (those are not necessarily the same people) trying to push some convoluted argument related to the CFA but this is super niche at best. And furthermore, if anyone would actually use crypto in the CFA area, it would be as a mean to circumvent the exchange control and acquire Euros/Dollars. That's not exactly fighting "colonial money", is it ?
honkler 4y ago
the value of solana was that there were bigger fools out there who would buy your coin from you. We have a word for it, I can't remember...ugh.. something related to pharoah...egypt...scheme..
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
  It's really more of a Ponzi scheme than a pyramid scheme, technically.
  - imtringued 4y ago
    A Ponzi scheme implies that there is someone who manages your investment though. A pyramid scheme only implies that the number of investors must keep growing.
wmf 4y ago
Crypto's value depends on the perception of decentralization which is more marketing that science. In crypto, "relatively centralized" is the same as "decentralized enough".
- vitalurk 4y ago
  In the current take on crypto, sure. Idk if I would call that success though!
nailer 4y ago
Solana now has a higher Nakamoto coefficient (decentralisation score) than the Eth L2s.
- TimJRobinson 4y ago
  Well yea, Ethereum L2s are all just one sequencer ATM. The point an L2s is they are secured by Ethereum, not be their own consensus. They have an escape hatch so if they ever go down / disappear / attempt to steal all the money - then anyone can force a withdraw to Ethereum and be safe. If Solana goes down there's nothing you can do.
  - nailer 4y ago
    I should probably have also pointed out that Sol has a greater Nakamoto coefficient than eth.
TimJRobinson 4y ago
- Some people want a chain half way between Ethereum and AWS. Games items for example don't need all the security of Ethereum. - 90% of crypto is still speculators who only care about cashing out before the collapse, if Solana lives only a few years that is fine by them.
- me_again 4y ago
  The more cynical view: many people had no technical need for a chain whatever, but wanted to “rub some crypto” on their project to get some hype-driven cash.
dinkumthinkum 4y ago
The value of crypto is based on the concept of pump and dump.
nailer 4y ago
It's fast and cheap, had the most active wallets of any blockchain, and when you actually measure it it's more decentralised than all the eth layer 2s. https://youtu.be/5NDs3Il2J3Q?list=RDCMUC9AdQPUe4BdVJ8M9X7wxHUA&t=316 https://youtu.be/5NDs3Il2J3Q?list=RDCMUC9AdQPUe4BdVJ8M9X7wxH...

shp0ngle 4y ago

Facebook’s Libra was in Rust too

baby 4y ago
A lot of cryptocurrencies are in Rust these days. Half of the crypto stack of Mina is, Sui is, Linera is, Grin is, Penumbra is, etc.
- quotha 4y ago
  Grin? Haven’t heard about grin in ages. I used to run a node, thinking about bringing it back online.
  - tromp 4y ago
    Grin is that rare blockchain focussed on simplicity and fairness [1]. [1] https://np.reddit.com/r/grincoin/comments/ug70ft/are_there_any_public_cryptocurrencyblockchain/ https://np.reddit.com/r/grincoin/comments/ug70ft/are_there_a...
- sph 4y ago
  In fact, good luck finding a Rust job these days that doesn't involve crypto.
  - philippejara 4y ago
    to be fair it's pretty surprising you can find rust jobs at all, a luxury most languages lack
- galfarragem 4y ago
  Programming languages of top 100 crypto projects: https://github.com/slowernews/notebook/blob/master/on-crypto.md https://github.com/slowernews/notebook/blob/master/on-crypto...

baby 4y ago

I tried learning a bit more of the project and couldn’t understand the design decision and how it led to the claimed throughput numbers. Then I found Shoup’s take[1] and it all made sense. Highly recommend reading it. [1]: https://www.shoup.net/papers/poh.pdf https://www.shoup.net/papers/poh.pdf

ChadNauseam 4y ago
From the paper: > Indeed, a proof-of-stake protocol enjoys many of the benefits, in terms of efficiency, of permissioned protocols; moreover, while it is less centralized than a traditional permissioned protocol, it is not nearly as decentralized as a truly permissionless protocol, such as Bitcoin. I hear this take often, but I have no idea why it would lead to less decentralization in practice. PoS means that someone needs to transfer you some of the native token before you can participate in consensus, but there's no practical way for a cabal of validators to stop someone from doing that if there's even one person with Eth willing to sell to you. That doesn't really seem different in practice from having to find someone willing to sell you a mining rig.
- TimJRobinson 4y ago
  Solana isn't more centralized because of PoS, it's because it has extremely high validator requirements (including a 300Mbps internet connection, which rules out running one in most homes). You could argue that PoW has natural attrition of validators because ASICS improve over time which gives more opportunity to enter the market, but that is secondary to the high validator requirements.
  - kkielhofner 4y ago
    I used to run a Solana validator. After compiling the Solana perf libs for my installed version of CUDA Solana consistently used at least 75% of my RTX 3090. For a validator. Solana validator hardware requirements are incredibly high compared to anything else I'm familiar with.
    - 4y ago

britneybitch 4y ago

It feels like Solana is moving fast and breaking things a little too much for a project that has to do with money. Uptime should be a competitive advantage for decentralized networks, but the Solana network went down 12 times in the first 6 months of this year[1]. Even Rust couldn't save them. [1]: https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/solana-cryptocurrency-has-second-outage-in-a-month-causing-12-percent-dip-in-value/ https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/solana-cryptocurr...

ErikAugust 4y ago
Did it go down 12 times for technical reasons or was it intentionally pulled down? Something to wonder about.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  Doesn't sound very decentralized at all...
  - nailer 4y ago
    No it just had bugs that got fixed. Decentralisation does not imply perfection.
- quanticle 4y ago
  Is there a difference? A decentralized protocol that can be DOS'd by a reasonably successful criminal gang isn't all that useful.
- imtringued 4y ago
  It goes down for an incredibly stupid decision. Transactions on Solana are free so spammers can produce millions of transactions per second and at some point validators simply crash. Solana has subsecond transaction processing so a validator being down for more than a second counts as a downtime whereas with Bitcoin a block taking two hours to mine is completely normal. Bitcoin doesn't have the concept of "downtime" only the concept of delaying the next block.
4y ago

wslh 4y ago

At our company we don't think account is an elegant model. There are many different things called account in Solana. This is a presentation from our Spanish speaking team talking about Solana from a critical developer approach: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1icRB_oYx_eIF5ytYTb94XMA3tJcQqbOwv49yk4gaKGY/edit#slide=id.g124fbe5877b_0_75 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1icRB_oYx_eIF5ytYTb94... The slide #6 talks about the different things called account. You can easily translate it if you don't speak Spanish.

m00dy 4y ago
Well, the accounting model is not about naming...It is about detecting dependent transactions very early so you can figure out how many can go into a block in parallel. Another one I like is the pricing model, a.k.a rent. You pay the rent, and your account survives in the chain. Once you are done, you stop paying rent, and the runtime sweeps your account under the carpet. (you can also create your account rent-exempt and get all the money back).

sneak 4y ago

You can't run a solana node behind nat, last I looked, because it uses some weird custom udp protocol that doesn't work right behind nat. That's where my experimentation with the chain stopped.

Galanwe 4y ago
This is a common problem for any peer to peer protocol. Doesn't really strike me as a problem though, it just means the client has responsibility of opening a port. Considering the complication of adding 1000s of hole punching strategies in the protocol, it's a fine trade-off.
- sneak 4y ago
  Not really. Bitcoind and geth work just fine behind NAT. They have no hole punching strategies in the protocol at all.
  - Galanwe 4y ago
    Hu yes they do. Last I checked they both had NAT traversal through UPnP. I remember that years ago bitcoin even had peer discovery through IRC channels in case UPnP was disabled.
    - sneak 4y ago
      1) UPnP isn't part of the p2p protocol and 2) even in the case where UPnP fails and there is no inbound connectivity, bitcoind works and syncs fine with only outbound connections Solana won't even sync behind nat.

encryptluks2 4y ago

I don't think so. I don't believe any Blockchain has as much instability as Solana and security breaches as the Solana ecosystem. Then look at how many projects FTX and Alameda owned or were invested in and all the hacks involving their projects and the questionable auditing companies like OtterSec.

rvz 4y ago
> Then look at how many projects FTX and Alameda owned or were invested in and all the hacks involving their projects and the questionable auditing companies like OtterSec. I would expect breaches in many Solana projects just as I would in other blockchain projects but after looking at this more in both here [0] and here [1] it is more Ethereum projects that have shown to have these hacks for years (due to it being there longer than other projects). I have not seen the overall blockchain(s) of Ethereum or Solana getting outright hacked at the core. But Polygon comes to mind as a highly centralized chain which got its whole chain breached [2] requiring the developers with access to the chain to force a silent update on validators. That doesn't look 'decentralized' or 'secure' to me on the core level of a blockchain in the case of Polygon which another VC and FTX funded chain. [0] https://web3isgoinggreat.com https://web3isgoinggreat.com [1] https://rekt.news https://rekt.news [2] https://polygon.technology/blog/all-you-need-to-know-about-the-recent-network-upgrade https://polygon.technology/blog/all-you-need-to-know-about-t...