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This is terrible, possibly toxic advice. Software devs are people too. They burn out, take time off to travel, reflect, take care of family, or just down on the

This is terrible, possibly toxic advice. Software devs are people too. They burn out, take time off to travel, reflect, take care of family, or just down on their luck being unemployed. The only advice I'd consider paramount is to take stock of themselves financially and mentally, to assure themselves that they can take on the chaos and uncertainty that follows. Honestly, if someone showed up with a gap in their resume and claimed that they were doing start-up, open source, etc. for an interview, I'd dig deep into that hard. The open source contribution/project would have to have a sufficiently high bar for it to be even considered. Else, I'd just assume they were being less than honest. I'd rather someone tell me they spent a year working on themselves, playing video games, hiking, etc.

ignoramous 4y ago
> This is terrible, possibly toxic advice. There are two sides to every coin. Possibly toxic advice for some, but why should anyone give up platforms or avenues that make them standout from the crowd? OP's suggestion is a perfectly valid piece of advice for anyone who has the energy, time, resources, ability, will, and integrity to keep chopping at a meaningful side project. It is not easy, sure. But I don't think we can say it is toxic, either. > The open source contribution/project would have to have a sufficiently high bar for it to be even considered. We'd do well to not write this advice off by subjecting it to the most extreme possible treatment?
- drewcoo 4y ago
  > There are two sides to every coin And there are six sides to every cube. In a world of tortured dichotomies, nobody ever mentions those.
  - undreren 4y ago
    I couldn’t have said it better myself. With three kids, my current side project is my day job, at least if measuring by workload. Taking on more work, voluntarily or not, will be at a significant personal cost for me. I don’t get the constant peddling of hussle porn in SWE circles.
throwuwu 4y ago
> The open source contribution/project would have to have a sufficiently high bar for it to be even considered. Else, I'd just assume they were being less than honest. I'd rather someone tell me they spent a year working on themselves, playing video games, hiking, etc. You think working on a passion project and trying out a startup is toxic and then you come out with this pessimistic bucket crab viewpoint? You’d be doing people a favour not hiring them, I’d feel bad for anyone working for you.
- the_af 4y ago
  The comment you're replying to said the advice was toxic, not the activity itself. That is, making people feel guilty for not doing "enough" (contributing to side projects, open source, etc) is the arguably toxic thing. I don't know if I agree, but let's not twist the words of the comment.
Ialdaboth 4y ago
Terrible advice. One year of lazing around and playing videogames is a good way to lose any self-discipline you would been building up to this point. There is nothing toxic in working to improve yourself and/or building projects you are passionate about - quite the contrary. The feeling of accomplishment can do wonders to one's mental health.
- thunky 4y ago
  > One year of lazing around and playing videogames is a good way to lose any self-discipline you would been building up to this point Do you really want people to devote their life to their jobs, even while unemployed? I don't see a thing wrong with spending your down time doing whatever makes you happy.
- kelnos 4y ago
  Speaking of toxicity, this idea that the primary means of valuing ourselves and being "healthy" should be through our job or independent job-related work... ugh, super toxic. I don't think the grandparent was suggesting they literally sit around for a year and do nothing buy play video games. But, hell, taking time off between jobs is a great idea, and if video games are your thing, spending a chunk of that time off playing sounds like it could be great for your mental health. But, just like anything else, moderation!
sangnoir 4y ago
> Honestly, if someone showed up with a gap in their resume and claimed that they were doing start-up, open source, etc. for an interview, I'd dig deep into that hard Hah, and you called gp's advice toxic! Taking stock if your financial well-being after being laid off is too late. I fear your advice (take time off) may be toxic - depending on circumstances. My advice is this: as a general rule, avoid interviewing while desperate. Getting an offer generally takes longer than one might think, so interview early and often, before you get near the end of your mental/financial runway.
- kelnos 4y ago
  I think we're abusing the word "toxic" here. Sure, for someone who hasn't planned out their finances and built a cushion, advising them to take some time off would be... well, bad advice. But "toxic"? That's a bit hyperbolic.
yoyonamite 4y ago
> Honestly, if someone showed up with a gap in their resume and claimed that they were doing start-up, open source, etc. for an interview, I'd dig deep into that hard. This is just as, if not more toxic than the advice that you're opposed to. I've had similar experiences with interviewers for non-technical questions, and it comes off as aggressive, antagonistic and traumatizing; especially in your example where they left it off their resume as a gap. The interviewee's perspective might have been to say that they've been spending some of their spare time keeping their skills sharp and now you're hammering them to see if a project left off their resume qualifies for some "high bar," while all they see is a negative and dismissive attitude. Personally, I would much rather be programming my own projects or doing leetcode than play video games, but I wouldn't judge someone negatively if they told me they played games on their own time.
brailsafe 4y ago
As someone who's been in that position at least twice (been fired or laid off and haven't been able to find _anything_ for over a year), I wouldn't go so far as to say it's wholly terrible or toxic, but at least partially so, or a little naive in some way. I'd say you should take at least a few months of personal time if you can afford it, and it's worth having something to chip away on eventually, but not necessarily to have something on your resume. Doing this full-time is borderline stupid advice, it will very likely not be worth trading your otherwise personal time for, unless you're literally charging for consulting services or something. Even still, if you're aiming for employment, just take your time. Looking back on the times I've had to deal with this, and looking forward to the times I almost certainly will again, I'd do nothing different than what you've recommended or that I've done, with the exception of haplessly paying rent hoping for that next absurdly long and thoughtlessly designed interview process to work out.
chadash 4y ago
> Honestly, if someone showed up with a gap in their resume and claimed that they were doing start-up, open source, etc. for an interview, I'd dig deep into that hard. As a counterpoint, I probably wouldn't dig into this too much. But even if I did, would I find it strange that someone got laid off and then used their time to build up a company that didn't work out? Probably not. And if I realized that it was a half-assed effort... so what? Why is that worse than time spent playing video games? Sure, if you told me you were working on building a company and you didn't have any progress, I might feel that you were dishonest. But if you've got at least something to show for it (a basic product, even with zero sales), I think it's fair game.
optymizer 4y ago
If you're not passionate about coding, that advice isn't for you. There is a class of people for whom coding is 'work', as in the actual act of coding is work and they would prefer to be doing anything else, but they have bills to pay. There is another class of developers who like to code so much, that 'work' is merely a project that they don't have directional control over, but the act of coding is a relaxing activity. I know because I'm one of them. I am pretty relaxed at work when I can just sit down and code, then I go home and if I get some free time to work on my own code, I find it relaxing too. It's not that I don't enjoy work and have to supplement with a personal project, I just like the feeling of having absolute control over the project and trying to write the best code possible, because making money or providing some shareholder value is not the goal. For people like me, I think this is a great advice. I am always thinking of side-projects that can become startups anyway, and I'm tinkering every day to the extent that time allows. I've been doing that for 20+ years. If I ever got laid off, my only hope is that at that point I will have a side-project that can magically be launched to make enough money to keep paying the bills.
- shrimp_emoji 4y ago
  >There is another class of developers who like to code so much, that 'work' is merely a project that they don't have directional control over, but the act of coding is a relaxing activity. I'm in the middle. Imagine you like playing football. You do it for fun. But, if you do it too much, you'll be exhausted and maybe strain a muscle or something. I code for fun, but it still wears me out; it's still a kind of "work" psychologically distinct from, and more taxing than, watching a show. The only way I would describe it as "relaxing" is if I put little-to-no thought into it, but that's how you end up with very buggy code.
- mindentropy 4y ago
  >There is a class of people for whom coding is 'work', as in the actual act of coding is work and they would prefer to be doing anything else, but they have bills to pay. I always see this set of people highly vocal and against people who actually like to code. It is like they have a tough time accepting that a lot of technical people love to build things.
atomicnumber3 4y ago
What if they showed up with a gap and simply said "I have plenty of money and took the time to myself, my family and my interests"? (I've never had a resume gap but that's going to be my explanation if/when I do.)
- Beaver117 4y ago
  It's bad to say that. Companies don't want their employees to be financially secure and have the leverage to quit at any time.
LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
> This is terrible, possibly toxic advice. [Continuing working] is the single biggest thing someone can do to avoid depression after a layoff. The best idea is a paying job because it fills both requirements. It also keeps you ready to interview and ready to start immediately. When you're on the couch it's always easy to wait till tomorrow. > I'd rather someone tell me they spent a year working on themselves, playing video games, hiking, etc. If they were independently wealthy that might be okay but for most people this is self-destructive behavior.
harshalizee 4y ago
Edit/Addendum : Uff this blew up. If I came on too strong, that wasn’t my intention and I’m sorry. I was primarily replying to this particular line from OP : > If you get laid off, immediately start doing a startup, open-source project, or volunteering full time. The ‘immediately’ didn’t really jive with me. A job loss can be very traumatic to an individual, and I still believe in taking time to recuperate from it rather than diving head long into yet another thing. I’ve interviewed quite a lot for my employers, big and small, including two of FAANMG companies for about 7 years now. From my perspective, I’m interviewing a candidate to see if they’re a competent engineer and a pleasant team member. I have absolutely no issues with passion projects / open-source and startups, just not if it’s aim is to be a resume filler. >Focusing full-time on contributing to pytorch? Yes! That is amazing and I already know that they’re a far more adept engineer than I am. But, if we were to dive in and I find out it was mostly fixing typos and nits in the codebase to show GitHub greens, then someone else who did something else entirely during their time off would come off better.

ignoramous 4y ago

> This is terrible, possibly toxic advice. There are two sides to every coin. Possibly toxic advice for some, but why should anyone give up platforms or avenues that make them standout from the crowd? OP's suggestion is a perfectly valid piece of advice for anyone who has the energy, time, resources, ability, will, and integrity to keep chopping at a meaningful side project. It is not easy, sure. But I don't think we can say it is toxic, either. > The open source contribution/project would have to have a sufficiently high bar for it to be even considered. We'd do well to not write this advice off by subjecting it to the most extreme possible treatment?

drewcoo 4y ago
> There are two sides to every coin And there are six sides to every cube. In a world of tortured dichotomies, nobody ever mentions those.
- undreren 4y ago
  I couldn’t have said it better myself. With three kids, my current side project is my day job, at least if measuring by workload. Taking on more work, voluntarily or not, will be at a significant personal cost for me. I don’t get the constant peddling of hussle porn in SWE circles.

throwuwu 4y ago

> The open source contribution/project would have to have a sufficiently high bar for it to be even considered. Else, I'd just assume they were being less than honest. I'd rather someone tell me they spent a year working on themselves, playing video games, hiking, etc. You think working on a passion project and trying out a startup is toxic and then you come out with this pessimistic bucket crab viewpoint? You’d be doing people a favour not hiring them, I’d feel bad for anyone working for you.

the_af 4y ago
The comment you're replying to said the advice was toxic, not the activity itself. That is, making people feel guilty for not doing "enough" (contributing to side projects, open source, etc) is the arguably toxic thing. I don't know if I agree, but let's not twist the words of the comment.

Ialdaboth 4y ago

Terrible advice. One year of lazing around and playing videogames is a good way to lose any self-discipline you would been building up to this point. There is nothing toxic in working to improve yourself and/or building projects you are passionate about - quite the contrary. The feeling of accomplishment can do wonders to one's mental health.

thunky 4y ago
> One year of lazing around and playing videogames is a good way to lose any self-discipline you would been building up to this point Do you really want people to devote their life to their jobs, even while unemployed? I don't see a thing wrong with spending your down time doing whatever makes you happy.
kelnos 4y ago
Speaking of toxicity, this idea that the primary means of valuing ourselves and being "healthy" should be through our job or independent job-related work... ugh, super toxic. I don't think the grandparent was suggesting they literally sit around for a year and do nothing buy play video games. But, hell, taking time off between jobs is a great idea, and if video games are your thing, spending a chunk of that time off playing sounds like it could be great for your mental health. But, just like anything else, moderation!

sangnoir 4y ago

> Honestly, if someone showed up with a gap in their resume and claimed that they were doing start-up, open source, etc. for an interview, I'd dig deep into that hard Hah, and you called gp's advice toxic! Taking stock if your financial well-being after being laid off is too late. I fear your advice (take time off) may be toxic - depending on circumstances. My advice is this: as a general rule, avoid interviewing while desperate. Getting an offer generally takes longer than one might think, so interview early and often, before you get near the end of your mental/financial runway.

kelnos 4y ago
I think we're abusing the word "toxic" here. Sure, for someone who hasn't planned out their finances and built a cushion, advising them to take some time off would be... well, bad advice. But "toxic"? That's a bit hyperbolic.

yoyonamite 4y ago

> Honestly, if someone showed up with a gap in their resume and claimed that they were doing start-up, open source, etc. for an interview, I'd dig deep into that hard. This is just as, if not more toxic than the advice that you're opposed to. I've had similar experiences with interviewers for non-technical questions, and it comes off as aggressive, antagonistic and traumatizing; especially in your example where they left it off their resume as a gap. The interviewee's perspective might have been to say that they've been spending some of their spare time keeping their skills sharp and now you're hammering them to see if a project left off their resume qualifies for some "high bar," while all they see is a negative and dismissive attitude. Personally, I would much rather be programming my own projects or doing leetcode than play video games, but I wouldn't judge someone negatively if they told me they played games on their own time.

brailsafe 4y ago

As someone who's been in that position at least twice (been fired or laid off and haven't been able to find _anything_ for over a year), I wouldn't go so far as to say it's wholly terrible or toxic, but at least partially so, or a little naive in some way. I'd say you should take at least a few months of personal time if you can afford it, and it's worth having something to chip away on eventually, but not necessarily to have something on your resume. Doing this full-time is borderline stupid advice, it will very likely not be worth trading your otherwise personal time for, unless you're literally charging for consulting services or something. Even still, if you're aiming for employment, just take your time. Looking back on the times I've had to deal with this, and looking forward to the times I almost certainly will again, I'd do nothing different than what you've recommended or that I've done, with the exception of haplessly paying rent hoping for that next absurdly long and thoughtlessly designed interview process to work out.

chadash 4y ago

> Honestly, if someone showed up with a gap in their resume and claimed that they were doing start-up, open source, etc. for an interview, I'd dig deep into that hard. As a counterpoint, I probably wouldn't dig into this too much. But even if I did, would I find it strange that someone got laid off and then used their time to build up a company that didn't work out? Probably not. And if I realized that it was a half-assed effort... so what? Why is that worse than time spent playing video games? Sure, if you told me you were working on building a company and you didn't have any progress, I might feel that you were dishonest. But if you've got at least something to show for it (a basic product, even with zero sales), I think it's fair game.

optymizer 4y ago

If you're not passionate about coding, that advice isn't for you. There is a class of people for whom coding is 'work', as in the actual act of coding is work and they would prefer to be doing anything else, but they have bills to pay. There is another class of developers who like to code so much, that 'work' is merely a project that they don't have directional control over, but the act of coding is a relaxing activity. I know because I'm one of them. I am pretty relaxed at work when I can just sit down and code, then I go home and if I get some free time to work on my own code, I find it relaxing too. It's not that I don't enjoy work and have to supplement with a personal project, I just like the feeling of having absolute control over the project and trying to write the best code possible, because making money or providing some shareholder value is not the goal. For people like me, I think this is a great advice. I am always thinking of side-projects that can become startups anyway, and I'm tinkering every day to the extent that time allows. I've been doing that for 20+ years. If I ever got laid off, my only hope is that at that point I will have a side-project that can magically be launched to make enough money to keep paying the bills.

shrimp_emoji 4y ago
>There is another class of developers who like to code so much, that 'work' is merely a project that they don't have directional control over, but the act of coding is a relaxing activity. I'm in the middle. Imagine you like playing football. You do it for fun. But, if you do it too much, you'll be exhausted and maybe strain a muscle or something. I code for fun, but it still wears me out; it's still a kind of "work" psychologically distinct from, and more taxing than, watching a show. The only way I would describe it as "relaxing" is if I put little-to-no thought into it, but that's how you end up with very buggy code.
mindentropy 4y ago
>There is a class of people for whom coding is 'work', as in the actual act of coding is work and they would prefer to be doing anything else, but they have bills to pay. I always see this set of people highly vocal and against people who actually like to code. It is like they have a tough time accepting that a lot of technical people love to build things.

atomicnumber3 4y ago

What if they showed up with a gap and simply said "I have plenty of money and took the time to myself, my family and my interests"? (I've never had a resume gap but that's going to be my explanation if/when I do.)

Beaver117 4y ago
It's bad to say that. Companies don't want their employees to be financially secure and have the leverage to quit at any time.

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago

> This is terrible, possibly toxic advice. [Continuing working] is the single biggest thing someone can do to avoid depression after a layoff. The best idea is a paying job because it fills both requirements. It also keeps you ready to interview and ready to start immediately. When you're on the couch it's always easy to wait till tomorrow. > I'd rather someone tell me they spent a year working on themselves, playing video games, hiking, etc. If they were independently wealthy that might be okay but for most people this is self-destructive behavior.

harshalizee 4y ago

Edit/Addendum : Uff this blew up. If I came on too strong, that wasn’t my intention and I’m sorry. I was primarily replying to this particular line from OP : > If you get laid off, immediately start doing a startup, open-source project, or volunteering full time. The ‘immediately’ didn’t really jive with me. A job loss can be very traumatic to an individual, and I still believe in taking time to recuperate from it rather than diving head long into yet another thing. I’ve interviewed quite a lot for my employers, big and small, including two of FAANMG companies for about 7 years now. From my perspective, I’m interviewing a candidate to see if they’re a competent engineer and a pleasant team member. I have absolutely no issues with passion projects / open-source and startups, just not if it’s aim is to be a resume filler. >Focusing full-time on contributing to pytorch? Yes! That is amazing and I already know that they’re a far more adept engineer than I am. But, if we were to dive in and I find out it was mostly fixing typos and nits in the codebase to show GitHub greens, then someone else who did something else entirely during their time off would come off better.