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A language is only good when the zealots don't have to constantly push it and persuade people to adopt it, it happens on it's own due to it's usability and feat

by jbirer 4y ago

A language is only good when the zealots don't have to constantly push it and persuade people to adopt it, it happens on it's own due to it's usability and features.

waboremo 4y ago
That isn't true and hasn't worked on numerous great languages, which are now often ignored entirely.
ranger207 4y ago
It seems contradictory that a good language wouldn't have proponents trying to get people to use it. I'm not sure I've ever heard of a language people think is good but don't think other people should use.
jraph 4y ago
Something (ideas, tools, languages) often needs to be pushed to spread.
howinteresting 4y ago
This is not true. You need a healthy balance of 10x improvements (which Rust has with the whole borrow checking business) and aggressive advocacy.
itsautomatisch 4y ago
If people aren't pushing then people won't use it. There are plenty of niche and esoteric languages that could be considered "good" (whatever that means) but aren't being actively used.
pjmlp 4y ago
A language that isn't pushed in some form, big corporation, zealots or killer framework, usually dies. No famous mainstream language in use today, has ever been adopted based on "it happens on it's own due to it's usability and features". Before you rush out to write something like C, remember that it only came to use thanks to AT&T, Bell Labs and UNIX.
- moloch-hai 4y ago
  Even a language pushed by corporations, zealots, and a framework usually dies. Fizzling is absolutely the normal fate of any new language, absent a miracle. Even a language that seems to have everything going for it can fade out. Ruby's success used to be thought assured. Then it suddenly wasn't. Python has run the oddest course. It plodded along for two decades, almost imploded on the 2->3 transition, and then got its miracle.
  - andsoitis 4y ago
    > Fizzling is absolutely the normal fate of any new language, absent a miracle. There are more ways to be dead than being alive.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Ah the Python example from people that weren't there I guess. Zope in the early 2000's, Guido's employment at NIST, CNRI, Google, Dropbox and now Microsoft. CERN and Fermilab pushing for it during 2003 onwards. Ruby suffered the same fate as languages that are tied to a killer framework, then the killer framework is no longer seen as the new hottest thing to have on the CV. Yet, without Rails, no one would have cared enough for Ruby to matter.
- Kukumber 4y ago
  exactly, and so far rust is being pushed by evangelists and pseudo-journalists rust wants to penetrate the industry by-proxy rather than with interesting tech/projects Mozilla gave up rewriting firefox in rust Embark gave up writing their new game engine in rust
  - unrealhoang 4y ago
    Google put up 1.5M Rust LOC in Android runtime and seeing number of serious exploitations reduced, a single developer created a stable gpu kernel driver in only 3 months are definitely interesting results. Even in your example, firefox’s Rust code amount is catching up with C/C++. You just don’t see what you don’t wanna see.
habitue 4y ago
I mean, this pretty much describes rust. Its merits speak for themselves, and people who were skeptical of it and try it very quickly find out the language is really well designed and pleasant to use (once you get used to the borrow checker). There are a ton of niche languages that have very enthusiastic fanbases, but they don't get the same snowball effect rust has gotten because it's a great language on so many dimensions.

by jbirer 4y ago

A language is only good when the zealots don't have to constantly push it and persuade people to adopt it, it happens on it's own due to it's usability and features.

waboremo 4y ago

That isn't true and hasn't worked on numerous great languages, which are now often ignored entirely.

ranger207 4y ago

It seems contradictory that a good language wouldn't have proponents trying to get people to use it. I'm not sure I've ever heard of a language people think is good but don't think other people should use.

jraph 4y ago

Something (ideas, tools, languages) often needs to be pushed to spread.

howinteresting 4y ago

This is not true. You need a healthy balance of 10x improvements (which Rust has with the whole borrow checking business) and aggressive advocacy.

itsautomatisch 4y ago

If people aren't pushing then people won't use it. There are plenty of niche and esoteric languages that could be considered "good" (whatever that means) but aren't being actively used.

pjmlp 4y ago

A language that isn't pushed in some form, big corporation, zealots or killer framework, usually dies. No famous mainstream language in use today, has ever been adopted based on "it happens on it's own due to it's usability and features". Before you rush out to write something like C, remember that it only came to use thanks to AT&T, Bell Labs and UNIX.

moloch-hai 4y ago
Even a language pushed by corporations, zealots, and a framework usually dies. Fizzling is absolutely the normal fate of any new language, absent a miracle. Even a language that seems to have everything going for it can fade out. Ruby's success used to be thought assured. Then it suddenly wasn't. Python has run the oddest course. It plodded along for two decades, almost imploded on the 2->3 transition, and then got its miracle.
- andsoitis 4y ago
  > Fizzling is absolutely the normal fate of any new language, absent a miracle. There are more ways to be dead than being alive.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Ah the Python example from people that weren't there I guess. Zope in the early 2000's, Guido's employment at NIST, CNRI, Google, Dropbox and now Microsoft. CERN and Fermilab pushing for it during 2003 onwards. Ruby suffered the same fate as languages that are tied to a killer framework, then the killer framework is no longer seen as the new hottest thing to have on the CV. Yet, without Rails, no one would have cared enough for Ruby to matter.
Kukumber 4y ago
exactly, and so far rust is being pushed by evangelists and pseudo-journalists rust wants to penetrate the industry by-proxy rather than with interesting tech/projects Mozilla gave up rewriting firefox in rust Embark gave up writing their new game engine in rust
- unrealhoang 4y ago
  Google put up 1.5M Rust LOC in Android runtime and seeing number of serious exploitations reduced, a single developer created a stable gpu kernel driver in only 3 months are definitely interesting results. Even in your example, firefox’s Rust code amount is catching up with C/C++. You just don’t see what you don’t wanna see.

habitue 4y ago

I mean, this pretty much describes rust. Its merits speak for themselves, and people who were skeptical of it and try it very quickly find out the language is really well designed and pleasant to use (once you get used to the borrow checker). There are a ton of niche languages that have very enthusiastic fanbases, but they don't get the same snowball effect rust has gotten because it's a great language on so many dimensions.