4 ms·

Do we need something better or is USB-C "good enough"? Micro-USB was clearly terrible and had to be replaced that much was clear since its very introduction, bu

by mort96 4y ago

Do we need something better or is USB-C "good enough"? Micro-USB was clearly terrible and had to be replaced that much was clear since its very introduction, but USB-C seems pretty good. I don't see it as desirable to move to something "better" in the coming decades, considering the immense cost of switching connector interface on something like this. (That cost also applies to micro-USB FWIW, micro-USB is just so bad that it's worth it.)

dijit 4y ago
I can already imagine that USB-C could be superseded by something that allows surface mounting the pins (similar to magsafe 1&2? like the old pebble watches had: https://www.joom.com/sv/products/1491901009384399338-201-1-26341-1267484219 https://www.joom.com/sv/products/1491901009384399338-201-1-2... ). USB-Cs limitations (that I am already aware of) are: that it consumes a lot of internal space on devices (which we’re feeling less and less as our phones get bigger: but our watches are relegated to wireless charging with no data pins for example), that it's not clear what cable/device can do what (something original USB tried to address with "host" and "client" connector classes) and that it handles comparatively fewer insertion/removal cycles (than lightning, at least). Regardless: I’m not sure that I am ever happy saying something is “good enough” in perpetuity, even if I cant see all the potential shortcomings of device requirements right now. You are absolutely right though, the switching cost is high: and monopoly makes it higher. (FWIW I agree with the EU on this decision, I remember phones before the common charger mandate and that was a nightmare)
tzs 4y ago
> Do we need something better or is USB-C "good enough"? USB-C won't be reasonably "good enough" until all I need to reasonably use USB-C devices with USB-C computers is USB-C cables. Suppose I have a computer with a USB-C port, and half a dozen USB-C peripherals that I want to connect at the same time. Before USB-C it was simple when I had way more devices than ports. I'd buy an inexpensive USB hub. The hub connected to a computer's type A port using the same kind of cable that my peripherals used to connect to the computer's A port. The hub had several type A ports that could then by used for my peripherals, using that same kind of cable. If the peripherals needed more total power than my computer's type A port could provide, I could buy an inexpensive powered hub. Now, with USB-C, the inexpensive USB-C hubs connect to the computer with a C to C cable but usually only have one (or zero) fully functional USB-C ports for peripherals. The rest are type A ports. To actually get a hub that adds multiple fully functional USB-C ports to a computer it seems the right now you have to buy an expensive Thunderbolt 3 or 4 hub. The best I've seen for inexpensive USB-C port expansion is this [1] or this [2]. The first provides 4 downstream USB-C ports, but they are data only, with no power or video support. The second is the same as the first except it also provides a fifth USB-C port that appears to be a power input only you can use with a USB charger to provide power to allow the hub to power or charge your computer. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Minisopuru-Ports-USB-Hub-Chromebook/dp/B0B3J2JS1Q https://www.amazon.com/Minisopuru-Ports-USB-Hub-Chromebook/d... [2] https://www.amazon.com/Minisopuru-Ports-USB-Hub-Chromebook/dp/B0BP81NSNZ https://www.amazon.com/Minisopuru-Ports-USB-Hub-Chromebook/d...
Nullabillity 4y ago
In retrospect, there's no way that USB-C was worth it! Let's look at what it added over B… - Reversible: Useless gimmick that nobody asked for - DisplayPort alt mode: Useful in theory, but no phones support it in practice - Symmetric: Host-side USB-C never ended up being mainstream anyway (and AB ports already existed anyway) - USB3: micro-B already had the "3.0 appendage", if anything turning it internal made it easier for manufacturers to silently revert to USB2 - Power Delivery: Qualcomm QuickCharge already existed and could have been standardized without a new connector
- mort96 4y ago
  - Reversible: Important feature everyone asked for. One of the main application for a device-side USB connector is to plug the device in to a charger at night. That usually happens in a dark room, where reversibility is incredibly important. It was literally touted as the main reason why Apple shouldn't switch to micro-USB. But more importantly, micro-USB is a garbage connector even for being non-reversible, it's harder than necessary to insert without looking, it breaks way too easily and seems to take very few connection cycles before it stops making a good connection. - DisplayPort alt mode: Every laptop uses this. It's what lets us have docks with display outputs. - Symmetric: Every laptop has host-side USB-C. - USB3: The micro-B "3.0 appendage" is ridiculous and huge, and no device which uses micro-B ended up supporting it in practice (except for I believe a couple Samsung phones?) - Power delivery: Qualcomm QuickCharge is proprietary garbage. It could have been standardized yes, but is there any reason to believe Qualcomm would have wanted that? - And it turns out it's incredibly useful to have both Power Delivery and DisplayPort and data transfer in one cable. It allows the world we currently live in where you can have one dock connected via one cable which handles video, power, USB, networking, audio, etc. (And yes, docks are generally too finicky, there's a lot to complain about in terms of implementation. But the idea is solid.)
  - cesarb 4y ago
    > USB3: The micro-B "3.0 appendage" is ridiculous and huge, and no device which uses micro-B ended up supporting it in practice (except for I believe a couple Samsung phones?) Nearly every external portable HDD I've seen has these (and comes with a corresponding short USB 3.0 micro-B to A cable).

by mort96 4y ago

dijit 4y ago

I can already imagine that USB-C could be superseded by something that allows surface mounting the pins (similar to magsafe 1&2? like the old pebble watches had: https://www.joom.com/sv/products/1491901009384399338-201-1-26341-1267484219 https://www.joom.com/sv/products/1491901009384399338-201-1-2... ). USB-Cs limitations (that I am already aware of) are: that it consumes a lot of internal space on devices (which we’re feeling less and less as our phones get bigger: but our watches are relegated to wireless charging with no data pins for example), that it's not clear what cable/device can do what (something original USB tried to address with "host" and "client" connector classes) and that it handles comparatively fewer insertion/removal cycles (than lightning, at least). Regardless: I’m not sure that I am ever happy saying something is “good enough” in perpetuity, even if I cant see all the potential shortcomings of device requirements right now. You are absolutely right though, the switching cost is high: and monopoly makes it higher. (FWIW I agree with the EU on this decision, I remember phones before the common charger mandate and that was a nightmare)

tzs 4y ago

> Do we need something better or is USB-C "good enough"? USB-C won't be reasonably "good enough" until all I need to reasonably use USB-C devices with USB-C computers is USB-C cables. Suppose I have a computer with a USB-C port, and half a dozen USB-C peripherals that I want to connect at the same time. Before USB-C it was simple when I had way more devices than ports. I'd buy an inexpensive USB hub. The hub connected to a computer's type A port using the same kind of cable that my peripherals used to connect to the computer's A port. The hub had several type A ports that could then by used for my peripherals, using that same kind of cable. If the peripherals needed more total power than my computer's type A port could provide, I could buy an inexpensive powered hub. Now, with USB-C, the inexpensive USB-C hubs connect to the computer with a C to C cable but usually only have one (or zero) fully functional USB-C ports for peripherals. The rest are type A ports. To actually get a hub that adds multiple fully functional USB-C ports to a computer it seems the right now you have to buy an expensive Thunderbolt 3 or 4 hub. The best I've seen for inexpensive USB-C port expansion is this [1] or this [2]. The first provides 4 downstream USB-C ports, but they are data only, with no power or video support. The second is the same as the first except it also provides a fifth USB-C port that appears to be a power input only you can use with a USB charger to provide power to allow the hub to power or charge your computer. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Minisopuru-Ports-USB-Hub-Chromebook/dp/B0B3J2JS1Q https://www.amazon.com/Minisopuru-Ports-USB-Hub-Chromebook/d... [2] https://www.amazon.com/Minisopuru-Ports-USB-Hub-Chromebook/dp/B0BP81NSNZ https://www.amazon.com/Minisopuru-Ports-USB-Hub-Chromebook/d...

Nullabillity 4y ago

In retrospect, there's no way that USB-C was worth it! Let's look at what it added over B… - Reversible: Useless gimmick that nobody asked for - DisplayPort alt mode: Useful in theory, but no phones support it in practice - Symmetric: Host-side USB-C never ended up being mainstream anyway (and AB ports already existed anyway) - USB3: micro-B already had the "3.0 appendage", if anything turning it internal made it easier for manufacturers to silently revert to USB2 - Power Delivery: Qualcomm QuickCharge already existed and could have been standardized without a new connector

mort96 4y ago
- Reversible: Important feature everyone asked for. One of the main application for a device-side USB connector is to plug the device in to a charger at night. That usually happens in a dark room, where reversibility is incredibly important. It was literally touted as the main reason why Apple shouldn't switch to micro-USB. But more importantly, micro-USB is a garbage connector even for being non-reversible, it's harder than necessary to insert without looking, it breaks way too easily and seems to take very few connection cycles before it stops making a good connection. - DisplayPort alt mode: Every laptop uses this. It's what lets us have docks with display outputs. - Symmetric: Every laptop has host-side USB-C. - USB3: The micro-B "3.0 appendage" is ridiculous and huge, and no device which uses micro-B ended up supporting it in practice (except for I believe a couple Samsung phones?) - Power delivery: Qualcomm QuickCharge is proprietary garbage. It could have been standardized yes, but is there any reason to believe Qualcomm would have wanted that? - And it turns out it's incredibly useful to have both Power Delivery and DisplayPort and data transfer in one cable. It allows the world we currently live in where you can have one dock connected via one cable which handles video, power, USB, networking, audio, etc. (And yes, docks are generally too finicky, there's a lot to complain about in terms of implementation. But the idea is solid.)
- cesarb 4y ago
  > USB3: The micro-B "3.0 appendage" is ridiculous and huge, and no device which uses micro-B ended up supporting it in practice (except for I believe a couple Samsung phones?) Nearly every external portable HDD I've seen has these (and comes with a corresponding short USB 3.0 micro-B to A cable).