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I live in Scotland, but grew up in Ireland (where there is no such right). The value of this cannot be understated, IMO. It's not _just_ the right, the fact tha

I live in Scotland, but grew up in Ireland (where there is no such right). The value of this cannot be understated, IMO. It's not _just_ the right, the fact that it exists forces landowners to consider access routes. Very rarely have I found myself crossing fields full of livestock or someone's front garden, because in most places the landowners have maintained or signalled a preferred walking route. It really is wonderful. Compare this to Ireland, where one of the most spectacular and celebrated natural rock formations [0], which has been used by the government as promotional material for visiting Ireland, is borderline inaccessible [1], and you are met with signs warning you of trespassing, and when I went last year, there was another sign warning of a bull in the field. [0] https://www.thewildatlanticway.com/waw/great-pollet-arch/ https://www.thewildatlanticway.com/waw/great-pollet-arch/ [1] https://www.bengoesplaces.com/how-to-access-great-pollet-sea-arch-in-county-donegal-ireland/ https://www.bengoesplaces.com/how-to-access-great-pollet-sea...

haspok 4y ago
Interestingly, in Yorkshire, where there is the Rights of Way, which gives you the right to pass through private land on a specific path, I had the opposite experience. I can't count how many times I had to pass through ploughed fields, the arrow sign pointing roughly in the direction of the other side of the field, and in between there is... nothing. If it is a popular path then others might have created a faint footpath, so you don't have to tread on the wheat or corn. Maybe this is how the owner wants to discourage wanderers?
- maccard 4y ago
  I don't spend much time in the area so I can't really comment on it, but it's definitely (in my experience) the exception rather than the norm. It's happened to me twice in 10 years of living here, both in the same general area (black isle) on two different trips. We are very regular walkers, but we're not "explorers", looking for new or untrodden paths.
- lebski88 4y ago
  It usually depends a lot on both the culture of the area and how often the paths are used. Where I am in Somerset there are an incredible number of paths, there's barely a field without a path through it. The routes are well marked and have good gates or styles for walkers. They are well used which helps keep the weeds down. Most of the Forrest also goes above the required footpaths and rights of way and keep a lot of permissive paths open too. Land owners have a responsibility to keep the routes accessible and I think they are paid a small amount for it. Grants are available for gates etc. That said they are rough routes so are fairly muddy at this time of year. I love them and base most of my running around them.
- pmyteh 4y ago
  There's not necessarily a lot they can easily do, there. Once a route is a RoW the farmer can't close or divert it without the consent of the council. If you've got a RoW crossing one of your fields diagonally then you're going to get a line trampled in your crops whether you like or or not!
  - darreninthenet 4y ago
    A Right of Way I walk frequently in Kent in the UK the farmer has literally put a sign up either end of the path through his crops and then not planted a ~6 foot wide diagonal path through the crops so you're walking with growing wheat on either side of you and a cleared path where you can be comfortable you're not destroying his livelihood... if more did this it would make it so much easier.
- WilTimSon 4y ago
  The owner must not have thought it through then, because most tourists will chug on straight through their field. Having a marked path is to their own benefit if they have the (mis?)fortune of living on the way to a landmark. I remember a similar case on Malta, where I went up a hill to get a nice view from a cave, recommended to me as part of the tourist route. The whole access to the cave lies across private property and there's about 20 signs explicitly pointing where to go and what will happen if you go anywhere else. I got to the cave, enjoyed it, got out, never once stepped outside the designated route. I imagine the owner worked out that meticulous path a while ago to minimise tourist noise.
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    Creating a marked path can increase liabilities. It implies that the path is safe. When someone falls and is hurt, the landowner doesnt want to hear that the "designated pathway" was unsafe, that the totally innocent member of the public was literally sent down the garden path to an injury. So landowners will ignore many paths, adopting an "enter at your own risk" approach. One increasing area is accessibility levels. If a landowner installs a gate or other structure on a path, does that structure have to be wheelchair accessible? Can a landowner install a gate designed to disuade bicycles?
    - ttymck 4y ago
      Are you American? I am, and this line of thinking screams "uniquely American" to me, but I'm curious if "liabilities everywhere" is similarly a concern across the pond. My understanding has been that every other country has much more "common sense" than we do in these matters.
      - ghaff 4y ago
        People who claim that someone who breaks their ankle on an unmaintained footpath through a field or in the woods in the US will routinely track down the landowner and sue them really need to provide some documentation that's the case.
fweimer 4y ago
Reading [1], is it really true under Irish law that as long as you are walking on one side of the fence (I'm not sure if “correct” is the best word to use here, given that it's clearly the dangerous side), you are not trespassing? I would expect that land ownership extends beyond the fence and includes the cliff as well.
- maccard 4y ago
  I dont live there anymore, just visit a few times a year, so I'm afraid that I'm unsure on the specifics!
ajuc 4y ago
I visited Ireland this year (+- the Wild Atlantic Way), we considered biking but I'm happy we eventually decided to hike/hitchhike/take buses cause Ireland is not designed for walking/biking. Everything's fenced, roads have crazy high speed limits for their width, there's no pavements outside cities, even forests are banned most of the time. Hitchhiking on the other hand was great - we waited for more than 15 minutes only once over 3 weeks. The situation with walking is crazy to see coming from Poland, where most forests are public property, there are almost no fences on fields (partly cause people mostly grow crops instead of keeping grazing animals I guess). It's a very strange to be in the countryside and not be able to walk from one place to another.
- Doctor_Fegg 4y ago
  I wouldn't necessarily say that's true for cycling. You just need to choose your routes carefully - follow the minor roads, not the major ones you'd use in a car. I've had some lovely days cycling quiet country lanes in Ireland. Same applies in the UK, though there are some areas (principally the Home Counties) where it's difficult to find a road that isn't infested with speeding Audis.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    > though there are some areas (principally the Home Counties) where it's difficult to find a road that isn't infested with speeding Audis. This is the issue, though. Over here, in France, secondary roads (smaller "départementales", roads you wouldn't take when looking for the fastest route from A to B when neither is directly on that road) are basically rally circuits. Aside from a few usual suspects, the police don't really patrol them. I know many such roads where I've never seen a single cop after some two decades of riding in nice weather. And, at least around Paris, they're in good enough shape to allow speeding comfortably, but they're barely wider than a single Audi.
  - ajuc 4y ago
    Maybe i just don't have the intuition on what road traffic to expect in Ireland. The speed limits are like +30-50 km/h compared to a similar road in Poland (for example we walked from Derry to Letterkenny and the road was 1 lane each way with no pavement after a few km. And yet the speed limit was like 100 km/h and constant traffic. And the smaller roads were all orthogonal to it. It was similar near Donegal, it was supposed to be Wild Atlantic Way but you wouldn't want to cycle on the main road, and the small roads weren't going along the coast but towards or away from it. Anyway, I don't want to complain too much, it was still great. The nature is superb. Just hard to get around without a car.
raesene9 4y ago
It is very nice to be able to walk mostly where you want, although it doesn't always mean that landowners won't challenge you when you're walking. Also worth noting that the right to roam doesn't apply to people's gardens (https://www.gov.scot/policies/landscape-and-outdoor-access/public-access-to-land/ https://www.gov.scot/policies/landscape-and-outdoor-access/p... and https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/enjoying-scotlands-outdoors?utm_source=Homepage&utm_medium=SOACwebsite&utm_campaign=Home_Hero_teaser_SOACoutdoors_02Apr2021 https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/enjoying-scotlands-o...)
- bennysonething 4y ago
  It applies to golf courses which I think is a bit silly. Walking on a fairway is not a good idea, and if a golf balls hits you I'm pretty certain it's the golfers fault.
  - iudqnolq 4y ago
    It works pretty well in practice. There are signs asking you to wait if someone's about to swing and so on. And golf courses aren't that pleasant to walk on if you're not a golfer, so you tend to walk quickly along an arterial path that has plenty of golfer traffic anyway until you get to the other side. The main reason this is convenient is there are a very long paths that would be quite inconvenient if you took away a few segments where you cross along the edge of a golf course for a few minutes.
- donbrae 4y ago
  I stay in Scotland and had always assumed the right to roam also applied to gardens. I thought it was cool that the law would leave it up to individuals to be respectful, and not have to state obvious exceptions in its wording. The law still does defer to folk’s common sense and decency (to not leave litter etc.) but today I learned that it does explicitly state you’re not allowed to just parade into someone’s garden!
ascaill 4y ago
Just a note for future visitors, this is actually very accessible now, the land owners have (in conjunction with the government) created a fenced off walkway the whole way down to the arch. You still need to climb over a small trestle at the end, but it's very like the pathways you would find in Scotland. https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/a-new-pathway-has-been-built-to-irelands-largest-sea-arch/ https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/a-new-pathway-has-been-b...
- maccard 4y ago
  Oh nice, this is really great to know. Unfortunately, this example was one of the most prominent, we had similar issues at murder hole beach [0] where the access was cut off by a bull in the field, and a few miles away from that, a walk that was built and funded by the council but had access removed after a dispute with the land owner [1]. And we've had similar experiences in Galway, Dublin, Kildare, Waterford,Wexford, Cork and Kerry over the past few years. [0] https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g21381844-d12819439-Reviews-Murder_Hole_Beach-Melmore_County_Donegal.html https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g21381844-d1... [1] https://www.hikingdonegal.com/mc-swynne-s-gun-loop https://www.hikingdonegal.com/mc-swynne-s-gun-loop
  - canadiantim 4y ago
    Murder hole beach sure sounds like quite the destination.
  - jerrysievert 4y ago
    it appears that there is a new pathway to murder hole beach, according to the article: https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/pathway-to-murder-hole-beach-in-donegal-is-finally-here/ https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/pathway-to-murder-hole-b... and it sounds like an amazing place to visit, thanks for the mention of it!
    - maccard 4y ago
      It's really a stunning place and I'm glad to see it's been resolved. I've been visiting there for 20 years at this point, and it's really a place of beauty that is worth a detour if you're nearby.

haspok 4y ago

Interestingly, in Yorkshire, where there is the Rights of Way, which gives you the right to pass through private land on a specific path, I had the opposite experience. I can't count how many times I had to pass through ploughed fields, the arrow sign pointing roughly in the direction of the other side of the field, and in between there is... nothing. If it is a popular path then others might have created a faint footpath, so you don't have to tread on the wheat or corn. Maybe this is how the owner wants to discourage wanderers?

maccard 4y ago
I don't spend much time in the area so I can't really comment on it, but it's definitely (in my experience) the exception rather than the norm. It's happened to me twice in 10 years of living here, both in the same general area (black isle) on two different trips. We are very regular walkers, but we're not "explorers", looking for new or untrodden paths.
lebski88 4y ago
It usually depends a lot on both the culture of the area and how often the paths are used. Where I am in Somerset there are an incredible number of paths, there's barely a field without a path through it. The routes are well marked and have good gates or styles for walkers. They are well used which helps keep the weeds down. Most of the Forrest also goes above the required footpaths and rights of way and keep a lot of permissive paths open too. Land owners have a responsibility to keep the routes accessible and I think they are paid a small amount for it. Grants are available for gates etc. That said they are rough routes so are fairly muddy at this time of year. I love them and base most of my running around them.
pmyteh 4y ago
There's not necessarily a lot they can easily do, there. Once a route is a RoW the farmer can't close or divert it without the consent of the council. If you've got a RoW crossing one of your fields diagonally then you're going to get a line trampled in your crops whether you like or or not!
- darreninthenet 4y ago
  A Right of Way I walk frequently in Kent in the UK the farmer has literally put a sign up either end of the path through his crops and then not planted a ~6 foot wide diagonal path through the crops so you're walking with growing wheat on either side of you and a cleared path where you can be comfortable you're not destroying his livelihood... if more did this it would make it so much easier.
WilTimSon 4y ago
The owner must not have thought it through then, because most tourists will chug on straight through their field. Having a marked path is to their own benefit if they have the (mis?)fortune of living on the way to a landmark. I remember a similar case on Malta, where I went up a hill to get a nice view from a cave, recommended to me as part of the tourist route. The whole access to the cave lies across private property and there's about 20 signs explicitly pointing where to go and what will happen if you go anywhere else. I got to the cave, enjoyed it, got out, never once stepped outside the designated route. I imagine the owner worked out that meticulous path a while ago to minimise tourist noise.
- sandworm101 4y ago
  Creating a marked path can increase liabilities. It implies that the path is safe. When someone falls and is hurt, the landowner doesnt want to hear that the "designated pathway" was unsafe, that the totally innocent member of the public was literally sent down the garden path to an injury. So landowners will ignore many paths, adopting an "enter at your own risk" approach. One increasing area is accessibility levels. If a landowner installs a gate or other structure on a path, does that structure have to be wheelchair accessible? Can a landowner install a gate designed to disuade bicycles?
  - ttymck 4y ago
    Are you American? I am, and this line of thinking screams "uniquely American" to me, but I'm curious if "liabilities everywhere" is similarly a concern across the pond. My understanding has been that every other country has much more "common sense" than we do in these matters.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      People who claim that someone who breaks their ankle on an unmaintained footpath through a field or in the woods in the US will routinely track down the landowner and sue them really need to provide some documentation that's the case.

fweimer 4y ago

Reading [1], is it really true under Irish law that as long as you are walking on one side of the fence (I'm not sure if “correct” is the best word to use here, given that it's clearly the dangerous side), you are not trespassing? I would expect that land ownership extends beyond the fence and includes the cliff as well.

maccard 4y ago
I dont live there anymore, just visit a few times a year, so I'm afraid that I'm unsure on the specifics!

ajuc 4y ago

I visited Ireland this year (+- the Wild Atlantic Way), we considered biking but I'm happy we eventually decided to hike/hitchhike/take buses cause Ireland is not designed for walking/biking. Everything's fenced, roads have crazy high speed limits for their width, there's no pavements outside cities, even forests are banned most of the time. Hitchhiking on the other hand was great - we waited for more than 15 minutes only once over 3 weeks. The situation with walking is crazy to see coming from Poland, where most forests are public property, there are almost no fences on fields (partly cause people mostly grow crops instead of keeping grazing animals I guess). It's a very strange to be in the countryside and not be able to walk from one place to another.

Doctor_Fegg 4y ago
I wouldn't necessarily say that's true for cycling. You just need to choose your routes carefully - follow the minor roads, not the major ones you'd use in a car. I've had some lovely days cycling quiet country lanes in Ireland. Same applies in the UK, though there are some areas (principally the Home Counties) where it's difficult to find a road that isn't infested with speeding Audis.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  > though there are some areas (principally the Home Counties) where it's difficult to find a road that isn't infested with speeding Audis. This is the issue, though. Over here, in France, secondary roads (smaller "départementales", roads you wouldn't take when looking for the fastest route from A to B when neither is directly on that road) are basically rally circuits. Aside from a few usual suspects, the police don't really patrol them. I know many such roads where I've never seen a single cop after some two decades of riding in nice weather. And, at least around Paris, they're in good enough shape to allow speeding comfortably, but they're barely wider than a single Audi.
- ajuc 4y ago
  Maybe i just don't have the intuition on what road traffic to expect in Ireland. The speed limits are like +30-50 km/h compared to a similar road in Poland (for example we walked from Derry to Letterkenny and the road was 1 lane each way with no pavement after a few km. And yet the speed limit was like 100 km/h and constant traffic. And the smaller roads were all orthogonal to it. It was similar near Donegal, it was supposed to be Wild Atlantic Way but you wouldn't want to cycle on the main road, and the small roads weren't going along the coast but towards or away from it. Anyway, I don't want to complain too much, it was still great. The nature is superb. Just hard to get around without a car.

raesene9 4y ago

It is very nice to be able to walk mostly where you want, although it doesn't always mean that landowners won't challenge you when you're walking. Also worth noting that the right to roam doesn't apply to people's gardens (https://www.gov.scot/policies/landscape-and-outdoor-access/public-access-to-land/ https://www.gov.scot/policies/landscape-and-outdoor-access/p... and https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/enjoying-scotlands-outdoors?utm_source=Homepage&utm_medium=SOACwebsite&utm_campaign=Home_Hero_teaser_SOACoutdoors_02Apr2021 https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/enjoying-scotlands-o...)

bennysonething 4y ago
It applies to golf courses which I think is a bit silly. Walking on a fairway is not a good idea, and if a golf balls hits you I'm pretty certain it's the golfers fault.
- iudqnolq 4y ago
  It works pretty well in practice. There are signs asking you to wait if someone's about to swing and so on. And golf courses aren't that pleasant to walk on if you're not a golfer, so you tend to walk quickly along an arterial path that has plenty of golfer traffic anyway until you get to the other side. The main reason this is convenient is there are a very long paths that would be quite inconvenient if you took away a few segments where you cross along the edge of a golf course for a few minutes.
donbrae 4y ago
I stay in Scotland and had always assumed the right to roam also applied to gardens. I thought it was cool that the law would leave it up to individuals to be respectful, and not have to state obvious exceptions in its wording. The law still does defer to folk’s common sense and decency (to not leave litter etc.) but today I learned that it does explicitly state you’re not allowed to just parade into someone’s garden!

ascaill 4y ago

Just a note for future visitors, this is actually very accessible now, the land owners have (in conjunction with the government) created a fenced off walkway the whole way down to the arch. You still need to climb over a small trestle at the end, but it's very like the pathways you would find in Scotland. https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/a-new-pathway-has-been-built-to-irelands-largest-sea-arch/ https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/a-new-pathway-has-been-b...

maccard 4y ago
Oh nice, this is really great to know. Unfortunately, this example was one of the most prominent, we had similar issues at murder hole beach [0] where the access was cut off by a bull in the field, and a few miles away from that, a walk that was built and funded by the council but had access removed after a dispute with the land owner [1]. And we've had similar experiences in Galway, Dublin, Kildare, Waterford,Wexford, Cork and Kerry over the past few years. [0] https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g21381844-d12819439-Reviews-Murder_Hole_Beach-Melmore_County_Donegal.html https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g21381844-d1... [1] https://www.hikingdonegal.com/mc-swynne-s-gun-loop https://www.hikingdonegal.com/mc-swynne-s-gun-loop
- canadiantim 4y ago
  Murder hole beach sure sounds like quite the destination.
- jerrysievert 4y ago
  it appears that there is a new pathway to murder hole beach, according to the article: https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/pathway-to-murder-hole-beach-in-donegal-is-finally-here/ https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/pathway-to-murder-hole-b... and it sounds like an amazing place to visit, thanks for the mention of it!
  - maccard 4y ago
    It's really a stunning place and I'm glad to see it's been resolved. I've been visiting there for 20 years at this point, and it's really a place of beauty that is worth a detour if you're nearby.