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Vandals destroy 30k-year-old indigenous cave drawings in Australia
- bitwize 4y ago[flagged]
- jackvalentine 4y ago> "The vandals forced their way past barbed wire and dug under a steel gate to get into the Koonalda Caves" Can't really protect a cultural site in a fairly remote area any more than that.
- bitwize 4y agoYou can make the entire remote area off limits, patrol the boundary with armed law enforcement officers. You can't climb Uluru (formerly known as Ayers Rock) as a tourist anymore. You can only look at it from miles away. And there are certain perspectives from which women can't look at it because the Aṉangu have rituals on certain parts of the rock that are exclusive to men, that women aren't even allowed to see. The Australian government has begun a crackdown on white encroachment onto indigenous lands that is really quite welcome (and a model for emulation by other countries with significant indigenous populations like Canada, New Zealand, and the USA), though it seems to have arrived a bit too late.
- jackvalentine 4y agoMate, there are limits of reasonableness and I think your suggestion would be crossing them. These sites are quite remote and scattered all over the continent. You can also walk right up to the base of Uluru, you're quite mistaken about how protected it is: https://parksaustralia.gov.au/uluru/do/walks/uluru-base-walk/ https://parksaustralia.gov.au/uluru/do/walks/uluru-base-walk... You can walk the entire perimeter as a man or a woman without restriction.
- echelon 4y agoIt's a shame that this happened, but it's not unsurprising. If you put a probability of loss on every relic of antiquity, they multiply out to a substantial amount of destruction every year. Ultimately it's a matter of cost. The cost to secure all of these pieces is extremely high. We won't be able to safeguard everything, but there are probably low hanging fruit in applying basic security measures to the items most at risk or of highest value.
- mvdwoord 4y agoEh.... "The vandals forced their way past barbed wire and dug under a steel gate to get into the Koonalda Caves"
- orangepurple 4y agoThe tragedy of heritage sites in Syria being blown up in the past few years by ISIS also comes to mind. Turkey plundered as much as possible before ISIS C4'd the sites.
- echelon 4y agoIncredibly tragic. It's a shame to see so much history being lost.
- perryizgr8 4y agoSee also the Buddhas of Bamiyan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan
- TaylorAlexander 4y agoAnother comment suggests that the Mirning people wanted to volunteer to protect it, but the local government was restricting their access. So while cost may play a part, there was also an issue of lack of concern from the government.
- angry_octet 4y agoThere are liability issues with volunteers which make it impractical for government to agree to that formally. They essentially have to be contracted or employed in some form. It has been a rent seeking strategy in many instances. A better strategy would be to properly fund the park ranger service, many of which are indigenous anyway, and commit to a specified level of surveillance and patrol. Rangers have powers to expel people from park areas and know how to liaise with police, but general cost cutting has reduced their effectiveness. Park rangers can also legitimately patrol cultural sites on private land without causing issues with farmers (cattle rustling is still a thing).
- mastazi 4y ago> The Mirning peoples had been in talks with the Australian government over needed changes to the site’s maintenance, asking for increased security and better access for the tribe to the caves. Currently, the tribe needs to request a key from the local environmental department to access the site, making it difficult for tribe members to visit and for the Mirning to protect the site. This is absolutely infuriating and also kind of expected at the same time. It's the result of a culture that has permeated every Australian government agency at all levels.
- cdogl 4y agoIndeed. The Australian public service has been thoroughly hollowed out. For a couple of decades the incentives for talent have dried up. You can get a reading of this by watching a Senate Estimates session where senior Canberra bureaucrats are questioned. Seat-warmers, for the most part.
- oluwie 4y agoI know this is going to be an unpopular opinion but I don't really think this is THAT big of a deal. Yea, I know the art is old and all that and it really is unfortunate but its also the nature for all things to change. Maybe in another 30k years, we'll be looking at the defacement as an amazing piece of art that tells the story of the current social climate at this point in time, or something along those lines.
- jacquesm 4y agoThe people whose sacred site this is are still alive. So to them it is a very big deal. For more on this fascinating subject: https://mirning.org/ https://mirning.org/
- pluc 4y agoYou're applying graffiti logic to a piece of cultural heritage because it happens to be a graffiti. That spirit is at the core of modern graffiti as an ephemeral medium by design - which is often why you'll find muralists tacitly tolerating the occasional bombing. However I think this particular piece of art had crossed into cultural heritage some time ago, and as such was a real dick move. Even using modern graffiti interpretation of the tenet, there are some pieces you just don't cross.
- astine 4y agoArtwork such as this is not just important from an artistic perspective, it's important from an archeological, historical, and paleontological perspective. There is a lot we have learned from ancient rock art and probably a lot that we have yet to learn. For example, by exampining the kinds of animals in ancient cave paintings paleontologists have been able to learn certain details about the appearance and behavior of now extinct megafauna.
- neodymiumphish 4y agoConsidering the security established around it and the knowledge of what it was, I find it hard to believe that enough photos, samples, etc, weren't taken before this vandalism to have gained or have the capacity to gain any knowledge these drawings may provide.
- vouaobrasil 4y agoThis is exceptionally sad. I've seen some of the cave art in other parts of Australia and it's mind-boggling that someone could be so horrible as to destroy it for their own entertainment.
- AnotherGoodName 4y agoI have a friend on a property with cave art here in the hunter valley of Australia. We really don't do enough to preserve it at all. He's responsible and ensures no harm but it's still weird to own private land with 10k+ year old art and have no one really give a damn about it. Compare it to European attitudes, eg. Lascaux where they closed off the cave completely and only allow tourists near the modern reconstruction. We really do take 10k+ year old history for granted here.
- cm2187 4y agoI presume the first thing to do is to record a high res 3d scan and photos of the cave, as vandals aren't the only threat (natural elements).
- ars 4y agoAt least for the cave in the article it's thousands of square meters of art. The art looks like parallel lines made by dragging fingers over the surface. I guess you could take some pictures, but it's not the kind of art that really needs high res 3d scans. In this case it's more the concept of "there was a human that did something here a very long time ago", rather than how the art itself looks. The vandalism only covered a small portion of it, but I suspect the vandals didn't even realize they were overwriting anything, since it's really not very obvious as art - it just looks like lines.
- wiseelder932 4y agoIs it possible that the teenagers did not know that the "scratchings" (for lack of a better term) were actually ancient and wise and sacred and enlightened aboriginal art?
- jpgvm 4y agoIf you mean the case in the article? Almost no chance. The drawings were deep in the tunnel system which itself is essentially in the middle of nowhere.
- 4y ago
- plusminusplus 4y agoIs "don't look now, but this is a death cave" a cultural dog whistle of some kind or just a random childish phrase?
- brutusborn 4y agoI’m Australian and I’m pretty sure it’s just children trying to be “spooky”. I doubt they were trying to vandalise Aboriginal art, since it seems they only covered finger flutes which are hard to distinguish as art.
- josephcsible 4y agoThis makes me think they knew exactly what they were doing: > The vandals forced their way past barbed wire and dug under a steel gate to get into the Koonalda Caves If they just wanted to carve something spooky into a rock, there were plenty of way easier places to do so.
- krsdcbl 4y agoI guess this specific cave being so off limits might have fueled the idea of picking exactly that one, they might very well have been oblivious to the damage they were doing.
- ethanbond 4y agoYeah barbed wire in a remote area is a clarion call to a group of bored boys!
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- brutusborn 4y agoThat makes me think the opposite, I broke into multiple caves as a (stupid) teenager and had no intention of doing anything destructive (besides underage drinking).
- 4y ago
- josephcsible 4y agoMy suspicion is that whoever did this was emboldened when none of the climate change vandals who did similar things to paintings in museums got any real punishment. If they all got a year or two in prison instead, I don't think this would have happened.
- akerl_ 4y agoWhat are you basing that suspicion on?
- ClassyJacket 4y agoThe climate change protestors did nothing wrong. We desperately need more attention on climate change or the human race will die out. There is literally nothing else anywhere near as important. Literally everything matters less. To equate those two things is disingenuous and offensive.
- Veen 4y agoAttention and support aren’t the same thing. Their stupid behaviour makes it less likely the general population will support climate action—few people want to be associated with these morons.
- randomsearch 4y agoDoes that mean murdering people in the cause of climate change prevention is ok? I don’t think literally everything else matters less. I don’t think there’s a simple “matters” scale. Most crucially, an important cause in itself does not justify any means whatsoever.
- karteum 4y agoI also agree that we desperately need more attention on climate change. In addition to that, to my knowledge no art was actually damaged by climate change protestors (who mostly projected soup on a glass, not directly on paintings...)
- aflag 4y ago
- quirino 4y agoDoes anyone have a full/clear image or a before and after? The best one I was able to find is the one in the article.
- labster 4y agoMaybe one of us who lives nearby can drive over and take a few snapshots for the “after” pictures. It sounds like they let anyone just walk on in.
- sacrosancty 4y agoNobody lives nearby. The "Null" in Nullarbor isn't just for fun! The cave is in the middle of a desert with a population of 50 and the desert is on an isolated coastline with such centers of population as Border Village Roadhouse, Old Telegraph Station and Head of the Bight Lookout 100 km away.
- ars 4y agoI googled a bit and you would not recognize it as art - it's basically a bunch of parallel lines made by multiple people dragging their hand over it in a straight line. The lines cover thousands of square meters of the walls, and the vandalism is of a small portion. I suspect the vandals did not even realize they were overwriting anything.
- remote_phone 4y agoLet’s hope these fuckers are stupid enough to post on social media. The punishment should be 10 years, not 6 months.
- katzgrau 4y agoEh, maybe that's taking it all a little too seriously. For all we know, the original art was the work of some ancient hooligans.
- remote_phone 4y agoWe don’t have very much evidence of ancient human art work around the world. Each one of them is precious. To make it morally equivalent to graffiti is ridiculous.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- slim 4y agois it more precious than one human life ?
- remote_phone 4y agoIt’s definitely more precious than the life of a scumbag that spent considerable effort getting through security measures just to destroy this thing.
- TheHappyOddish 4y agoThank goodness you're not in charge of the justice system.
- musingsole 4y agoRight, it's not like there are living stewards of the art who could've told you what it meant! Oh wait...
- coliveira 4y agoThe drawings survived 30K years on the wilderness, but couldn't last more than a few decades on civilization!
- kaesar14 4y agoImplying what’s existed in Australia for thousands of years doesn’t constitute ‘civilization’ :)
- fastball 4y agoDepending on your definition of "civilization", indeed what existed in Australia for thousands of years probably does not qualify.
- FatActor 4y agoCan you explain why thousands of years of aboriginal society doesn't qualify as a civilization?
- defrost 4y agoThat pretty much boils down to Euro-centric judgement, early British, Dutch, and French reporting, different ideals of what constitutes "culture", destruction of effective but hard to see artifacts (wells, river and ocean fish traps, degradable townsites), etc.
- midoridensha 4y ago"Culture" and "civilization" are different things. Chimpanzee tribes have culture, as do orcas and dolphins, but I don't see how you can call their societies "civilizations". The group of people here on HN have a "culture", but this is not a "civilization", it's just a website (though it's part of a civilization). Humans lived in hunter-gatherer tribes for hundreds of thousands of years or more before they invented agriculture and created what we now call "civilization". I really don't see how you could properly apply the term "civilization" to any group of people that live in tribes.
- unnamed76ri 4y ago[flagged]
- krsdcbl 4y agoAncient greece even earlier, yet the term "barbaric" still holds a delegate meaning in today's language.
- unnamed76ri 4y ago[flagged]
- banga 4y agoSelfish and disrespectful, stealing from the past and the future.
- jpgvm 4y agoPretty unfortunate and disrespectful. Sort of emblematic of Australian bogan culture however. For some reason Australian teenagers are among the worst in this regard. As someone that grew up in country Australia this really doesn't surprise me at all. Contributing factor is that racism against indigenous Australians is somewhat fueled by the same sort of rhetoric that became popular in the Trump election campaign. Notably that the white poor feel they have been short-changed by legislation that they see unfairly benefits the non-white poor. Also the prior government was much like Trumps administration in they normalized a lot of right wing opinions that were previously looked down upon here, emboldening these twats. Personally I don't feel a lot of love for either camp (the indigenous Australians I interacted with didn't do themselves any favors) but 30k yr old art is still art so it's disrespectful all the same.
- wiseelder932 4y ago[flagged]
- noobermin 4y agoThe assertion (one I personally believe) is it isn't really overt racism as much as it is one of dismissal and treatment of their concerns as less valid, for example, people in other comments saying "they just look like lines," which itself is dismissive of the fact that the indigenous people there found these markings as sacred themselves. The original sin lies with the government just not treating it as important as it should be, which comes down to them not seeing the markings as being as precious and worthy of protection as say a historic building that they'd likely protect to some degree. That dismissive attitude toward one piece of cultural heritage isn't overt racism (like hurling slurs, being disciminatory, etc) but it is treatment of serious concerns without the weight they deserve.
- shard972 4y ago[dead]
- discordance 4y ago> the indigenous Australians I interacted with didn't do themselves any favors Aboriginal and Torres Straight islanders have experienced systemic, soul crushing racism for 300 years. It seems unfair to expect them to be cordial and have a nice discussion about it all.
- hgsgm 4y ago"Vandals destroy 30k-year-old vandalism" > First Peoples Rock Art covered by Later People's Rock Art.
- defrost 4y agoG'damn irresponsible teenagers ... Pilbara mining blast confirmed to have destroyed 46,000yo sites of 'staggering' significance > "Deeply troubled" traditional owners in the western Pilbara have had their worst fears confirmed after Rio Tinto detonated explosives near culturally significant sites dating back more than 46,000 years. > A Rio Tinto spokesperson said blasting in Juukan Gorge occurred over the weekend, and on Tuesday the company confirmed its ancient rock shelters were destroyed. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-26/rio-tinto-blast-destroys-area-with-ancient-aboriginal-heritage/12286652 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-26/rio-tinto-blast-destr... Just to clear, this sort of fuckery has a direct impact on the HN tech world, there are many mapped resources on indigenous lands with mineral leases held by Rio Tinto and others. ( eg: $64 billion Resolution Copper Arizona for one ) If mining companies cannot keep promises to respectfully operate around cultural sites without damaging them .. then resistance to granting permissions to proceed drastically increases.
- yehOk9393 4y ago200 years from now “God damn irresponsible past adults who destroyed the stable environment humans had relied on for hundreds of years!!” …Anyone who is tossing technology out every few years, burning fossil fuels is doing a great bit more damage to human history than this.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- spritefs 4y agoQuestion for Australians here: is racism against aboriginals widespread in Australia? How does the govt work to prevent it?
- ostenning 4y agoYeah I would say its quite a big problem, lots of people have derogatory views about first nations peoples. Government basically uses marketing tactics to portray us all as a big inclusive happy family, but that couldn't be further from the truth.
- spritefs 4y ago> Government basically uses marketing tactics to portray us all as a big inclusive happy family, but that couldn't be further from the truth. It's the same way in the US with native Americans. They teach you about the genocide committed. What they don't teach you is that the government aggression towards natives didn't actually "stop" until Kennedy (and even then I'm still in doubt) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_termination_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_termination_policy
- dendrite9 4y agoI have a note to look for a good book about the American Indian Movement, it isn't something we were taught in school. Earlier today I was looking for some information about geology in British Columbia and clicked a link about an abandoned town. The last line of the wikipedia entry was enough to give me a pause and look up more. The entire entry is: > Kimsquit is a former village of the Nuxalk[1] at the mouth of the Dean River on the northeast side of Dean Channel in the Central Coast region of British Columbia, Canada.[2] Kemsquit Indian Reserve No. 1 is nearby at 52°49′00″N 126°58′00″W,[3] which is on Kimsquit Bay; Kimsquit Mountain is nearby. > The village was shelled by the Royal Navy in 1877.[4] The BC Geographical Names site includes a little more information: > Kimsquit was the site of one of the last gunboat actions on the BC coast when, in 1877, HMS Rocket, under Lt Cdr Charles Harris, shelled and burned the Nut’l village. Several of its residents had allegedly murdered the survivors of the wreck of the George S Wright in Queen Charlotte Sound in 1873 – though his charge was never proven.
- transfire 4y ago[flagged]
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- Existenceblinks 4y agoI wonder if there is another 30k-year before this 30k-year where the drawings would also be considered a destroyer?
- jjcon 4y agoI guess they just have to wait a couple thousand years for the graffiti to be a piece of history too.
- aaron695 4y ago[dead]
- barbariangrunge 4y agoNear where we live, apparently the Mormon community keeps going out and doing this. It’s becoming a major problem and is apparently leading to a lot of drama between the two communities. (My information is secondhand, but came from a national parks interpreter)
- lukeholder 4y agoI highly doubt this is true due my deep understanding of Mormon culture and their ethical inclinations. You are spreading second hand gossip and casting an entire religion into disrepute. Please share facts or reliable reporting if you have such.
- Xc43 4y agoYour understanding of modern Mormon culture and their modern ethical inclinations does not change history. Any religion such as hinduism with their caste-based discrimination and mormonism with their skin-color-based discrimination is in their correct place when found in disrepute. Please inform yourself before standing for such shameful and unethical/immoral belief system.
- Dalewyn 4y agoIf you are going to accuse someone of certain acts, it is only proper to have evidence to support your claims. Otherwise, it is simply slander. The Mormons could indeed be or have engaged in disagreeable acts (I wouldn't know myself, nor do I care), but claiming so while skirting your own duty to be truthful is not okay. "Apparently" and "second hand" don't fly with accusations.
- Xc43 4y agoAh, I thought it was common knowledge; You don't, yet... Thank you for holding me to a higher standard. I wrote not from second hand knowledge. Nor, is it apparently apparent. Here is one source: (1). If it this is insufficient for you, for it seems you do not trust me as a source on the subject, here is a quote from the Book of Mormon: "And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them." (2 Nephi 5:21) (2) I will not belabor the content of this quote, for it is, hopefully, now clearly racist. (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_people_and_Mormonism#Teachings_on_Native_American_skin_color https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_people_and_Mor... (2) https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/5?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-... [Addendum: I re-read the thread and it seems to me now you were answering to me who was answering to a bifurcation of the original comment. I agree the original commenter would ideally have substantiated his claims. So would have the answer, (to which I answered) which claimed that because they are Mormon then they should be spared of judgement or scrutiny. I disagree (but that is something else). This whole thread could have been avoided if the term Mormon would have been omitted. Which, I believe would have been fine, since whether those communities were LDS or not, it would have been the same.]
- henriquemaia 4y agoI know this is the article's title, and that this may sound as a tangent, but whoever destroyed the cave drawings were definitely not Vandals: > The Vandals were a Germanic people who first inhabited what is now southern Poland. They established Vandal kingdoms on the Iberian Peninsula, Mediterranean islands, and North Africa in the fifth century. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals
- BEEdwards 4y agoThat's the origin of the word, but not what anyone (outside of historians) mean when they say it. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vandal https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vandal
- usrusr 4y agoBut then on the other hand if you talk about cave drawings, historians aren't terribly far out of scope. My reading of the headline went roughly like this: "Vandals destroy(ed) [..] cave drawings [oh, must have been a very interesting new archaeological approach if they could identify the the culture responsible for destruction] in Austra..[What?? How did they get th--oh, right]"
- henriquemaia 4y agoI really want to thank you for your reply. You took the time to point me to what you think is the right direction, i.e., the current meaning of the word. However, I know I didn't mention this before, but my point was more subtle, even to me at the time as I was not totally aware on why I even bothered to point out the origin of the word. Today, looking at your reply, I had it more clear. Here we have an article telling us about a terrible thing, that is, the destruction of an unrecoverable piece of history. And in that same article, the writer engages in a language that is just the result of a prejudice against an old group of people, namely the Vandals. Why are the Vandals vandals? Because they destroyed parts of the Roman empire. So the Romans and their ways stand for what is considered correct, civilized, the apex of civilization, while all other peoples including the Vandals are not. The Vandals vandalize in the sense that they go against the established order. But hidden in this assumption is the very idea that Romans acted differently from the Vandals. That they, when they imposed themselves on others, were somewhat more polished, more sophisticated. They were not. They vandalized, or should I say _romanized_, the Vandals and all other peoples around them. So by using this language, even when we are not thinking about it, we end up perpetuating these hidden assumptions. The same could be said about using other words, but this word in particular made me feel this way when I read the article. Anyway, thanks again for your comment. If I wasn't aware of the new meaning of the word, your comment would definitely improve my understanding. Unfortunately, I was just too obscure to really get my point across at the time. . Growing up in Portugal, and learning about the Vandals in school, gave me a kind of feeling of relating more closely to that group. Partly because of this, they are not just historic trivia. I feel somewhat connected to them, though this may not be a real biological connection. I hope you get the gist of it.
- google234123 4y agoWhat did they write?
- timcavel 4y ago[dead]
- samhyde69 4y ago[dead]
- Archelaos 4y agoVandalising prehistoric rock art seems not so uncommon. I remember that I have seen a photo of GIs posing in front of rock art they vandalized during WW2 in northern Africa, but could not find the Web-site again. (Did someone else come across it and can provide a link?) While searching for it, I encountered photos showing vandalized rock art from Lybia: https://www.temehu.com/vandalised-rockart.htm https://www.temehu.com/vandalised-rockart.htm