4 ms·

In a society that does not give any value to people's lives beyond their productive output, this will inevitably be an outcome of euthanasia. It merely provides

In a society that does not give any value to people's lives beyond their productive output, this will inevitably be an outcome of euthanasia. It merely provides a more dignified alternative to the existing paths to what we call "deaths of despair". People who were forced to starve, to subsist, to suffer empty, meaningless lives of toil and/or misery, now have an alternative to the continuation of their suffering. This does not mean the alternative is good, but neither is its absence. One would hope that seeing how many people would rather choose to die in their own terms, as opposed to continuing to toil to enrich their landlords while they have to choose between food and heating, would steer us towards building a better society, one where people have not only freedom, but autonomy over their own lives. And if it doesn't, well, then I suppose I'm glad we have an alternative to the society we're building.

moralestapia 4y ago
>People who were forced to starve, to subsist, to suffer empty, meaningless lives of toil and/or misery, now have an alternative to the continuation of their suffering. Hope you don't find yourself in that demographic at some point of your life.
- Daishiman 4y ago
  Suicide has always been an alternative, as is just suffering quietly for decades and ending your life naturally with no lessons or meaning to your suffering.
emptysongglass 4y ago
My wife was very suicidal in her teens and early twenties. She tried to kill herself a number of times and even ended up in one of those infamous padded rooms. Long story short, she's no longer suicidal and is happy she wasn't successful. I don't agree with expanding scope to "mature minors": life is change but life as a minor is breathless transformation we can't even cognize for ourselves until years later looking back.
- sdiacom 4y ago
  Thank you for sharing this. I do not know the specifics of the Canadian law on this matter, so I will not comment on those. I understand the concerns raised about it -- the topic requires the sort of nuance that is so often absent from bureaucratic processes. I also struggled with depression and suicidality in my twenties. My life also got better, and I am glad I did not succeed at killing myself. I do not advocate for assisted suicide as a solution for most problems -- just for those health situations where no real solutions exist. My mother, however, is approaching her sixties. She's been depressed, like, really, majorly, manically, clinically depressed, for as long as I can remember. She's tried to kill herself many times, twice in the last year alone. She's tried every medication under the sun, some which have temporarily made things better, many which have permanently made things worse. All she's heard from her loved ones, over the last thirty years, is that she has to keep trying. Always, forever, keep trying, through an endless trough of misery with no end in sight. Do yoga, sign up for courses, move away, move back, try CBT, try CBD, try SSRIs, try benzodiazepines, try anti-psychotics. Try and then try again, forevermore getting nowhere, until you finally get to die in a way that your loved ones find socially acceptable. Because otherwise us, your loved ones, we'll keep rescuing you -- hell, legally speaking, we're forced to rescue you, again and again, unless you eventually get desperate enough to die that you don't even call to say goodbye. I also hope that assisted suicide can be a revulsive for our profoundly sick society. Maybe if instead of letting people freeze, starve, be lonely and sick and sad, "fade out" in a way that looks like a "natural death" or an "accident", maybe if we counted them, if we kept a tally of the people who have gone to their doctors begging for death because their existence was untenable or unworthy of living, maybe that would force us to acknowledge them, to listen to their stories, to transform our society so that there's a place in it for them. Or maybe it would just be another number to become desensitized to.
vintermann 4y ago
> People who were forced to starve, to subsist, to suffer empty, meaningless lives of toil and/or misery, now have an alternative to the continuation of their suffering They virtally always had, though. Suicide is legal. Even when it isn't, it's always been an option, and people have always used it. Short of that, even hardliners like the Catholic church are explicitly fine with terminal sedation (medical treatment that is intended to relieve pain, but is expected to hasten death as a side effect) and refusing life-prolonging treatment when that is understood as only postponing the inevitable. The culture war polarisation makes it sound like the alternative is keeping you alive in agony against your will and confiscation of your family's assets if you commit illegal suicide. Nobody is proposing that! Everyone wants to respect people's autonomy. It's just that we feel denying you official approval for your suicide doesn't interfere much with your autonomy, and things like the feeling that you're a burden to your loved ones or wasting hospital time that could be better spent on others - can interfere a lot more. That life is worth living is no small assumption. It's a huge one, and one of those which it is questionable if can ever be justified on anything resembling "objective" grounds. Please, don't even try. It is nonetheless the assumption that is the basis for everything we do, from getting up in the morning to voting to obeying traffic rules to calling an ambulance if we see someone collapsing to the ground. Do we really have a meaningful alternative that involves not affirming it?
- sdiacom 4y ago
  Suicide is not legal in many places, though it is correct that this is rarely enforced in any meaningful way. There are cases, however, where family members have been prosecuted for assisting terminally ill people in committing suicide. Technically, in many legislation, you have a duty to assist someone whose life is in danger, and neglecting this duty is a crime. What you brush off as "official approval" can be the difference between a person's family members getting to say goodbye to their loved one before they die peacefully on their own terms, or them getting home one day to find their brains scattered all over the garage. It's about whether you get to make this painfully difficult decision about your life on the open, with the support of those around you, or whether you are forced to hide it from them, out of shame or to avoid legal repercussions. It's about whether your loved ones are able remember you as you were in life, or as the trauma, guilt and shame that followed your death. It matters a lot. Life is worth living, yes. On the abstract, and on a personal level, I wholeheartedly agree. But I do not get to impart that judgement on other people's concrete lived experiences, to decide that their life is worth living on their behalf. Just like I alone decide whether mine is.

moralestapia 4y ago

>People who were forced to starve, to subsist, to suffer empty, meaningless lives of toil and/or misery, now have an alternative to the continuation of their suffering. Hope you don't find yourself in that demographic at some point of your life.

Daishiman 4y ago
Suicide has always been an alternative, as is just suffering quietly for decades and ending your life naturally with no lessons or meaning to your suffering.

emptysongglass 4y ago

My wife was very suicidal in her teens and early twenties. She tried to kill herself a number of times and even ended up in one of those infamous padded rooms. Long story short, she's no longer suicidal and is happy she wasn't successful. I don't agree with expanding scope to "mature minors": life is change but life as a minor is breathless transformation we can't even cognize for ourselves until years later looking back.

sdiacom 4y ago
Thank you for sharing this. I do not know the specifics of the Canadian law on this matter, so I will not comment on those. I understand the concerns raised about it -- the topic requires the sort of nuance that is so often absent from bureaucratic processes. I also struggled with depression and suicidality in my twenties. My life also got better, and I am glad I did not succeed at killing myself. I do not advocate for assisted suicide as a solution for most problems -- just for those health situations where no real solutions exist. My mother, however, is approaching her sixties. She's been depressed, like, really, majorly, manically, clinically depressed, for as long as I can remember. She's tried to kill herself many times, twice in the last year alone. She's tried every medication under the sun, some which have temporarily made things better, many which have permanently made things worse. All she's heard from her loved ones, over the last thirty years, is that she has to keep trying. Always, forever, keep trying, through an endless trough of misery with no end in sight. Do yoga, sign up for courses, move away, move back, try CBT, try CBD, try SSRIs, try benzodiazepines, try anti-psychotics. Try and then try again, forevermore getting nowhere, until you finally get to die in a way that your loved ones find socially acceptable. Because otherwise us, your loved ones, we'll keep rescuing you -- hell, legally speaking, we're forced to rescue you, again and again, unless you eventually get desperate enough to die that you don't even call to say goodbye. I also hope that assisted suicide can be a revulsive for our profoundly sick society. Maybe if instead of letting people freeze, starve, be lonely and sick and sad, "fade out" in a way that looks like a "natural death" or an "accident", maybe if we counted them, if we kept a tally of the people who have gone to their doctors begging for death because their existence was untenable or unworthy of living, maybe that would force us to acknowledge them, to listen to their stories, to transform our society so that there's a place in it for them. Or maybe it would just be another number to become desensitized to.

vintermann 4y ago

> People who were forced to starve, to subsist, to suffer empty, meaningless lives of toil and/or misery, now have an alternative to the continuation of their suffering They virtally always had, though. Suicide is legal. Even when it isn't, it's always been an option, and people have always used it. Short of that, even hardliners like the Catholic church are explicitly fine with terminal sedation (medical treatment that is intended to relieve pain, but is expected to hasten death as a side effect) and refusing life-prolonging treatment when that is understood as only postponing the inevitable. The culture war polarisation makes it sound like the alternative is keeping you alive in agony against your will and confiscation of your family's assets if you commit illegal suicide. Nobody is proposing that! Everyone wants to respect people's autonomy. It's just that we feel denying you official approval for your suicide doesn't interfere much with your autonomy, and things like the feeling that you're a burden to your loved ones or wasting hospital time that could be better spent on others - can interfere a lot more. That life is worth living is no small assumption. It's a huge one, and one of those which it is questionable if can ever be justified on anything resembling "objective" grounds. Please, don't even try. It is nonetheless the assumption that is the basis for everything we do, from getting up in the morning to voting to obeying traffic rules to calling an ambulance if we see someone collapsing to the ground. Do we really have a meaningful alternative that involves not affirming it?

sdiacom 4y ago
Suicide is not legal in many places, though it is correct that this is rarely enforced in any meaningful way. There are cases, however, where family members have been prosecuted for assisting terminally ill people in committing suicide. Technically, in many legislation, you have a duty to assist someone whose life is in danger, and neglecting this duty is a crime. What you brush off as "official approval" can be the difference between a person's family members getting to say goodbye to their loved one before they die peacefully on their own terms, or them getting home one day to find their brains scattered all over the garage. It's about whether you get to make this painfully difficult decision about your life on the open, with the support of those around you, or whether you are forced to hide it from them, out of shame or to avoid legal repercussions. It's about whether your loved ones are able remember you as you were in life, or as the trauma, guilt and shame that followed your death. It matters a lot. Life is worth living, yes. On the abstract, and on a personal level, I wholeheartedly agree. But I do not get to impart that judgement on other people's concrete lived experiences, to decide that their life is worth living on their behalf. Just like I alone decide whether mine is.