13 ms·

All About USB-C: Illegal Adapters

453 points by zdw 4y ago

Robotbeat 4y ago
Are there any competing connectors under development now? I personally wonder of the mechanical robustness of a device-side port that isn’t a pure female port.
- ilyt 4y ago
  The problem is actually putting springy bits in connector instead of cable. They wear out. IIRC Mini-USB had that problem
onewheeltom 4y ago
The best thing about USB-C is the connector. Everything else is a mess. I have a powered speaker with a USB-C port for “charging” that does not work with a USB-C to USB-C cable. Only USB-A to USB-C cables will charge the speaker.
- gumby 4y ago
  The way USB C is designed you have to go out of your way to make that happen. I believe you (!) but I'm not sure how I could build a device to behave that way. Could it be due to a weirdly noncompliant power adaptor?
  - wiredfool 4y ago
    I’ve got a pair of cheap Bluetooth headphones that do that too — they only work with a usb a to c cable, not with a proper usb c power supply and cable.
  - fragmede 4y ago
    That device, the speaker in this case, is missing the pull-down (Rd) resistors on CC1 and CC2 to say that it's happy to get 5v@500ma when connected using a USB-C to USB-C cable. Those resistors aren't needed/used for signaling when using a USB-C to USB-A cable, which is why that works. https://community.silabs.com/s/article/what-s-the-role-of-cc-pin-in-type-c-solution?language=en_US https://community.silabs.com/s/article/what-s-the-role-of-cc...
    - RobotToaster 4y ago
      So they saved a fraction of a cent per unit on two resistors?
      - fragmede 4y ago
        To GP's point, that's the problem with Postel's Law. It's possible that was intentionally skipped to save fractional cents, but I think it's also possible they made the device and just never tested with a usb-c to usb-c cable. "It works on my machine (which is too old to have usb-c ports because we don't buy macbooks for hardware designers)!"
  - TulliusCicero 4y ago
    I have a retro games portable that behaves the same way.
  - numpad0 4y ago
    No, it’s the peripheral device. There were initial confusions among bootleg/hacky manufacturers such as: - whether CC pins are to be handled by the cable or by the device, - whether added pins are for insertion detection or for protocol use by the host, - which pins are to be pulled down or left NC for charging, - whether USB-C is meant to be a “mobile” connector, or a replacement for the USB-A connector, or how soon the replacement is to occur. As the result, there were some devices that has a USB-C input but only works with an A to C cable.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  Always, or did it just break the ability to flip it upside-down?
  - zlsa 4y ago
    If the 5.1k pull-down resistors are missing on the device side, it will not charge from a USB-C wall brick, laptop, etc. in either orientation, but it will work fine when charging from a USB-A outlet with a USB-A to USB-C cable. This is because USB-C outlets are not permitted to provide any power until they detect the presence of a "legacy" device that just wants 5v (as signaled by the pull-down resistors on the device).
- Foobar8568 4y ago
  Ducky keyboards are the same...
- wlesieutre 4y ago
  I have a USB recharged LED lantern with the same problem
- zlsa 4y ago
  This is a super common f*ckup in a truly ridiculous number of devices. It's so common that somebody published a PCB design to retrofit noncompliant devices to make them work: https://github.com/ide/usb-c-to-c-power-mod https://github.com/ide/usb-c-to-c-power-mod
  - Narushia 4y ago
    Huh, TIL. My phone, gamepad, and headphones charge just fine with a C-to-C cable. I guess I’m glad to have somehow managed to avoid devices with that fuckup…
    - saiya-jin 4y ago
      Offical cables to good devices, or reputable expensive brand vs ulta cheap nonames with logos one simply can't trust. Never had issue with c-c cables neither, but I use tiny anker 65w charger and official samsung phone c-c cable (so getting ultra fast phone charging or whatever is the proper name), but its true that if I had to supply 3-4 locations with all necessary and convenient set of chargers and cables that would cost quite a bit. It really is one of those 'you get what you pay for', unfortunately very few people know this and I learned most of this here on HN too
- clumsysmurf 4y ago
  I hate USB-C connectors. All my phones have had the same issue: USB-C connector busts and you can't insert the cable any more. I use high quality Anker cables, and I keep having to buy new Google Pixels over this. Replacing the USB-C port is around $160.
  - delecti 4y ago
    I'll second the "relevant username" sentiment, but without the winky face. I've had phones break in a variety of ways, but the USB-C ports have always kept working.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Username checks out ;) But seriously, yes, they are ridiculously fragile and usually only SMD soldered on, no hole through part to give it some mechanical strength. Very frustrating, I am super careful inserting USB-C connectors and have broken a couple already, fortunately not on anything expensive.
    - clumsysmurf 4y ago
      Do you recommend any kind of port-saver magnetic cable ... something like https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Charging-Charger-Transfer-2018-2021/dp/B0B93VW72C https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Charging-Charger-Transfer-20... but with high speed data?
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        I haven't used anything like that, for me the problem isn't tripping over cables but basically the force required to attach the cable in the first place. I guess a magnetic pigtail would reduce the number of times I need to insert the cable but a regular USB-C extension cable would do just as well for that purpose (and that's what I use right now). That's still not perfect because the 2 cm of plug sticking out of the side of the device is long enough to put substantial leverage on the soldered part inside the device but that seems to be a given. I do try to find the shortest possible plug to minimize that force, but can't find them much shorter than that.
- gambiting 4y ago
  I was going to say the same thing. I don't understand how that's possible - it's incredibly frustrating.
- elzbardico 4y ago
  Really, compared to lightning USB-C connector is pure trash. But compared to USB-A I concede it is an improvement.
  - genewitch 4y ago
    i always worry about the lightning connector shorting out when it's not plugged in to something.
    - zrail 4y ago
      When they were babies both of my kids happily chewed on lightning cables that were plugged into a charger. They're both still here but all of those cables stopped working shortly thereafter.
    - aix1 4y ago
      "When a Lightning cable is just lying somewhere connected to a charger/computer, but not connected to a device, HiFive limits current on the PWR to a really small value (around 10-15 mA according to my measurements). To enable full current, 0x74 request must be issued by Tristar and processed by HiFive." https://nyansatan.github.io/lightning/ https://nyansatan.github.io/lightning/
    - rubatuga 4y ago
      Woke up with a lightning connector burning into my back, was very uncomfortable
- cesarb 4y ago
  The way USB-C works with adapters to legacy USB (USB-A and USB-B) is brilliant. Unlike in USB-C, in legacy USB the power roles are fixed: the USB-A socket and USB-B plug provide power (source), the USB-A plug and USB-B socket receive power (sink). A USB-C to legacy adapter always has a USB-C plug (never a USB-C socket), and one of these four legacy alternatives. If the legacy end of the cable is one which receives power (USB-A plug or USB-B socket), the USB-C end has a pull-up resistor to that power on the configuration pins, indicating to the USB-C device that this cable provides power; if the legacy end of the cable is one which provides power (USB-A socket or USB-B plug), the USB-C end has a pull-down resistor to ground on the configuration pins, indicating to the USB-C device that this cable requests power. The USB-C device only connects its power output to the socket when it sees that pull-down resistor, so the power supplies will not be shorted together if the cable always provides power to it. And the only thing necessary for an adapter, or for an USB-C device which only receives power, is a pair of resistors. And this explains your scenario: in the USB-A plug to USB-C plug case, the cable always provides power on the USB-C plug; in the USB-C to USB-C plug case, the device on the other end will only provide power when it sees the pull-down to ground, which should be provided by the device, and in your case is probably missing.
karmakaze 4y ago
This was far more interesting than expected. Title more appropriately "illegal and/or useful". This talks about power. I'd also like to read one about all the possible data and video usages and gotchas.
- blacksmith_tb 4y ago
  And likely not "illegal" (housefires notwithstanding...) but just in violation of spec (which is great when it scratches your itch, but obnoxious when some combo of device and cable won't do what you expect).
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    Eh, that's within the way the word is used; giving your CPU an illegal instruction won't call the cops, but it will crash your software.
ChuckMcM 4y ago
This is a great discussion of all the ambiguity that has been added to the USB spec along the way and how that ambiguity can bite you. I'm fairly convinced at this late stage that the IETF motto of "precise in what you send, flexible in what you receive" is basically evil. When standards work around the non-compliance of clients in creative ways (like HTTP browsers did, A LOT) they become "well it isn't in the standard but if you don't do this you'll break a lot of things out in the field" problems. That resistance to breaking existing clients is understandable, but ultimately it is a trap (in my opinion) that results in both security issues and safety issues. It would be interesting to have a USB 4.x spec that was both explicit in all the behaviors AND had explicit tests for and responses to non-compliant stuff. I don't think the IEEE or anyone else for that matter has the stones to try the experiment though.
- jzwinck 4y ago
  If IEEE does that, some manufacturers will just ignore it. Sure they may have to write weasel words like "USB compatible but not USB authorized" on their products, but they'll dominate the market by allowing people to use the largest variety of devices.
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    The simplest practical way around that (imho) is to license the name for the 4.x standard and be proactive in taking action against anyone who uses the name or logo if their cables or ports aren't compliant. Of course, depending on the jurisdiction who can actually bring claims, and how damages can be calculated, vary greatly. I, for one, wouldn't buy "USB compatible but not USB authorized" cables if it meant being secure in knowing that the damned cable will actually work. Less tech savvy people might not, but there's also people who can be tricked into buying blinker fluid for their cars. There's gotta be a happy medium somewhere.
    - marcosdumay 4y ago
      > is to license the name for the 4.x standard Oh, while you are at it, they will also need names that don't keep changing and don't have synonyms. The 4.x names are ok for reference in a standard, but they are useless for consumer communication.
gumby 4y ago
This is part of a hackaday series on USB C. Other posts: https://hackaday.com/series_of_posts/all-about-usb-c/ https://hackaday.com/series_of_posts/all-about-usb-c/
hoosieree 4y ago
Ah, this takes me back to that time I had to add a USB-2.0 adapter inline with an all USB-C signal chain in order for the operating system to recognize the device. And that charger I have which is USB-C but only works in one orientation. And those expensive OpenFlow/P4 compatible switches in the datacenter whose management interface is serial (as in RS-232), but the form factor of the connector is USB-mini.
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  I think there must be something fundamentally wrong with many of the USB-C / USB 2.0 adapters on the market. I've burned out 10 of them already, using them to connect my old trusty mouse (5V, 100mA). The mouse works fine (20 years after I bought it!) but the adapters only last a few months at most before they start intermittently disconnecting, eventually failing completely. I'm at my wits end with this because there is no mouse on the market today with the same form and button layout.
  - TeMPOraL 4y ago
    > before they start intermittently disconnecting, eventually failing completely My phone had this problem. I went through several cheap USB cables over the course of a year, before finally realizing it's not the cables that were the issue (other than being cheap and easy to deform): the issue was caused by lint accumulated in the USB port. After scraping it out with a needle the issue went away. The lint and dirt will accumulate over time, and get compacted in the port by the charging cable, making it very hard to spot, as it looks just like the back wall of the port would. Cheap USB cables will easily deform after being plugged a couple times, making them much easier to pull out - but this alone will not make the connection intermittent, even though it feels that way if you're not aware of the lint problem.
kennywinker 4y ago
I had a recent brush with the chaos of USB-C. A device I built was using what I assumed was a "standard" 6-pin usb port (https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/USB-Connectors_Korean-Hroparts-Elec-TYPE-C-31-M-17_C283540.html https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/USB-Connectors_Korean-Hr...) - but it wouldn't work with the cheap usb-c cables I had bought for it. After a bunch of time with a continuity tester and ultimately ripping one of the cables apart, it turns out the it was a 6pin cable, but it had a different 6 pins connected. One of them was "left handed" while the other was "right handed". Maddening. To help with this in the future, I recently ordered a run of these usb cable testers from jlcpcb with some friends - https://github.com/alvarop/usb_c_cable_tester https://github.com/alvarop/usb_c_cable_tester - totally worth it to never have to guess about a cable again. (for the curious, a technical description of what was happening: the cable had pins A1, A4, A5, B1, B4, and B5 all connected. The port had pins A12, A9, A8, B12, B9, and B8 connected - If you look at this in a pin diagram like the one on this page https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/01/usb-3-1-and-type-c-the-only-stuff-at-ces-that-everyone-is-going-to-use/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/01/usb-3-1-and-type-c-t... you can see that no matter which way around you put it in the port you'll never get contact)
zzo38computer 4y ago
USB is really terrible for many reasons. This article describes some of them, but it is worse than that. (I knew USB was bad; I did not know it was quite that bad!!) I think for charging, there should be a charging only port, and for data, having separate ports which you can tell which physical port is in use, and perhaps RS-232 or MIDI would be good, than USB which is no good.
- RockRobotRock 4y ago
  USB is the worst connection standard, except for all the other ones.
ec109685 4y ago
I get what the EU is aiming for by banning lightening connectors, but it would be nice if it was coupled with improvements to USB-C.
- curiousgal 4y ago
  This is why I don't think that would change anything. I am more that certain Apple would abuse the standard to force the users to only buy its cables. Edit: I know complaining about downvotes only solicits more but I am genuinely curious why two people thought this comment was so irrelevant to the discussion that they downvoted it. Only explanation is that they believe that Apple could do no wrong. Lol
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Yes because it’s not like Apple already has been shipping iOS based devices that support USB C that can be used with any USB C cable and supports all the relevant standards including video over USB C. Also, Apple will be forcing all Mac apps to go through the Mac App Store any day now. Since it introduced the Mac App Store a decade ago.
  - elzbardico 4y ago
    Really, the day the iphone gets a USB-C connector will be a sad day to me. I hate that stupid male connector disguised as a female smd mounted in a board.
  - vinay427 4y ago
    > I am more that certain Apple would abuse the standard to force the users to only buy its cables. Based on iPhones with Lightning connectors supporting USB C PD charging for years now as well as various iPads with USB C/Thunderbolt connectors supporting many "USB C features" such as docks with HDMI and USB A ports, I'm curious why you are "more than certain" that Apple would change this behavior in the future. Could you care to elaborate?
  - dymk 4y ago
    Apple will just ship a phone with no charging port and adopt wireless charging exclusively.
_Microft 4y ago
Have a look at this tool to help find out what 'capabilities' your cables have: https://github.com/alvarop/usb_c_cable_tester https://github.com/alvarop/usb_c_cable_tester It has a number of connectors, the cable gets plugged into the board with both ends and labelled LEDs will light up for wires that are connected. It runs off a coin cell, no microcontroller, no single-board computer, no nothing. Just a power source, LEDs and connectors. From what I remember, the creator said that the repo should contain everything required to have some manufactured by JLCPCB (that's a large Chinese PCB prototyping service that also populates boards with components if you like).
- sschueller 4y ago
  Yes, you can get 5 boards assembled for around USD 44.- https://github.com/alvarop/usb_c_cable_tester/blob/main/ORDERING.md https://github.com/alvarop/usb_c_cable_tester/blob/main/ORDE...
- kps 4y ago
  I still have my RS232 version, but I thought those days were over.
whatever1 4y ago
Is there any certification body that also has a list of certified usb products ? I literally cannot predict if a cable can charge, transfer data slowly, fast or if it will fry my device. I mostly want a *hard requirement for a specs label ON THE CABLE*. How else am I supposed to know what they are for? Even Apple is not labeling their cables. Same physical appearance and no labeling is recipe for disaster
- googlryas 4y ago
  What ever happened to "Benson from Google", who was probably the closest thing to a certifying body that the public could trust.
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    If it's the same person I'm thinking of, most of the content disappeared with Google Wave.
  - ranger207 4y ago
    He's still active on /r/usbCHardware as /u/laughingMan11
- randy408 4y ago
  https://www.usb.org/products https://www.usb.org/products
  - whatever1 4y ago
    That is very helpful thanks!
- kmlx 4y ago
  i solved this by buying all my usb c cables directly from apple. they work great with all of my devices.
puzzlingcaptcha 4y ago
About USB-C to barrel plug connectors: I think people generally use a "PD decoy" board with that setup, which does Power Delivery negotiation (usually based on the cheap IP2721 chip but you can get a fancier one from ST) with a PD-capable power brick. This way you can easily get 5/9/12/15/20V out of a single decent quality GaN charger. Now obviously you want to be careful with where you plug it in but it's still quite convenient. A more advanced way to do this is use an arduino board that can negotiate arbitrary voltage in 20mV steps with a PPS-compliant charger, effectively giving you a tiny lab power supply (although you can't get under 3.3V and the chargers are still a bit pricy).
- chaz6 4y ago
  I am disappointed that the Anker 715 (Nano II 65W) cannot do 12V with PD, but for some reason it is not one of the standard PD voltages. I think it is capable of 12V with PPS, but I am not sure if the decoy cables support it. If you specifically need 12V with PD, make sure to check if your charger supports it.
layer8 4y ago
At this point, they should rename it to MSB – Multiversal Serial Bus.
cactusplant7374 4y ago
Holy shit. I do have to flip my Type C extension cable sometimes. This sort explains what is happening. I would like to have really long cables (12ft+). That way I don’t need to bring a bulky extension cord with me when traveling. Has anyone found a way to make this work?
- foepys 4y ago
  I personally have multiple 3m (~10ft) USB-C cables. There are also 4m (~13ft) and more cables available but they might not support the latest Power Delivery standard.
joebergeron 4y ago
Do standards organizations tend to release/sell/provide any sort of “test harness” that vendors can use to validate their implementations against? Some coworkers and I recently authored an open API standard to be implemented by external vendors, and the test harness we released alongside it was the single most valuable tool we could possibly have provided to speed partner integrations/catch problems early.
carabiner 4y ago
I guarantee that within 3 years, a "USB-lite" will be announced with minimal features in an attempt to solve this mess. Yay, now you have n standards.
Animats 4y ago
The USB crowd has managed to replicate the decades old problem with DB-25 RS-232 cables. I once worked in a data center where there was a rule that all cables over 1 foot long must have all wires and be 1:1. Any "adapters" were very short, labelled cables. USB-C is now there.
- wernercd 4y ago
  Everything old is new again.
devwastaken 4y ago
On top of bad usb-C, the chips used for Ethernet and HDMI are also overwhelmingly poor. Every adapter overheats, so hot you cannot touch it, even with a full metal case. We need a standards body to ban junk products designed to be unsafe and/or destroy your devices.
jasonhansel 4y ago
For a while, I've been using a USB-C female to USB-A male adapter to connect my MagSafe charger to various old-school USB wall chargers. Somewhat surprisingly, this works perfectly; the charging speed is probably slower but I haven't noticed. That said, I'm guessing this violates some specification or other. Ah, well, no explosions yet.
matthewfcarlson 4y ago
I know I’m biased towards hackaday but I think this series is one of the better ones they’ve ever done. The writing is tight and clear. You can tell Arya is an expert in the area.
KirillPanov 4y ago
> if your data blocker cable has a CC wire (as it should, if you want to have data transfer) Is this a typo? The whole point of a "data blocker" cable is to not have data transfer.
silverpepsi 4y ago
I wish USB would just go away. Even the most basic possible use cases just fundamentally don't work, and are becoming worse each year. At least 10-15 years ago I was trying to copy data from one USB harddrive to another. I was already using my ports so I tried to do it through a hub. This was in the day where machines still had 3-4 ports, maybe even 5. But after my webcam and mouse, I was full. I was poor and broke then and always had cheapskate hubs. It would always work but you'd have weird errors or crashes and finally one drive would stop responding midway through a 6 hour operation. Now 2022 with a decent job I said it's time to properly experience USB and splurged on a well-known $100+ one. Laptops in 2022 now have ONLY ONE USB PORT, both my Macbook and Huawei. The second port is for power. And? .... Yeah USB hubs don't work at all. Same crap. I was blaming my Xiaomi phone & Windows 10 for the fact I can't back up my photos .....for months. Nope it was the gdamn USB hub. And it's ALWAYS 100% OF THE TIME weird issues that appear in the middle of long operations inconsistently. The hardware involved never matters, Mac, Windows, cheap hub, fancy hub.....all TRASH
- skunkworker 4y ago
  If you have TB3 and a thunderbolt dock you can get much more consistent results. I’ve been using a caldigit TS3 for almost 3 years now on a 2019 MBP with little to no issues, it remembers my monitors, I have a dac running out and lots of ports. Thunderbolt > USB-C any day.
  - sgjohnson 4y ago
    Thunderbolt = $$$$, though. It’s prohibitively expensive for the average user’s use case.
- mlindner 4y ago
  Too late, European law has mandated it's use, so now it's never going away. This will be something we can blame Europe for long into the future.
  - blackbear_ 4y ago
    I don't understand this line of thinking. The purpose of those regulations is to reduce e-waste. How is the EU's fault if some companies produce cheap shit that doesn't work very well? And do you really think things would get better without those rules?
smusamashah 4y ago
Is there a device to test these cables? There should be one if there isn't already. Will be useful for cable makers too.
LeanderK 4y ago
One thing I have always wondered about USB-C. Why is the OS not communicating more information about your cable? As I understood it, the type of cable is visible to the OS, so why does it not help to troubleshoot the problem?
jxdxbx 4y ago
I have at least 2 USB C devices (a little Android-based retro game thing, and headband/headphones I use for background noise while sleeping) that do not charge off the USB C charger I use for everything else (which, is 60 watts since I want to to charge everything). Drives me crazy. Whole point of USB C is to avoid shit like that. I'd rather shit devices still come with micro USB so at least I know they need an old charger.

453 points by zdw 4y ago

Are there any competing connectors under development now? I personally wonder of the mechanical robustness of a device-side port that isn’t a pure female port.

ilyt 4y ago
The problem is actually putting springy bits in connector instead of cable. They wear out. IIRC Mini-USB had that problem

onewheeltom 4y ago

The best thing about USB-C is the connector. Everything else is a mess. I have a powered speaker with a USB-C port for “charging” that does not work with a USB-C to USB-C cable. Only USB-A to USB-C cables will charge the speaker.

gumby 4y ago
The way USB C is designed you have to go out of your way to make that happen. I believe you (!) but I'm not sure how I could build a device to behave that way. Could it be due to a weirdly noncompliant power adaptor?
- wiredfool 4y ago
  I’ve got a pair of cheap Bluetooth headphones that do that too — they only work with a usb a to c cable, not with a proper usb c power supply and cable.
- fragmede 4y ago
  That device, the speaker in this case, is missing the pull-down (Rd) resistors on CC1 and CC2 to say that it's happy to get 5v@500ma when connected using a USB-C to USB-C cable. Those resistors aren't needed/used for signaling when using a USB-C to USB-A cable, which is why that works. https://community.silabs.com/s/article/what-s-the-role-of-cc-pin-in-type-c-solution?language=en_US https://community.silabs.com/s/article/what-s-the-role-of-cc...
  - RobotToaster 4y ago
    So they saved a fraction of a cent per unit on two resistors?
    - fragmede 4y ago
      To GP's point, that's the problem with Postel's Law. It's possible that was intentionally skipped to save fractional cents, but I think it's also possible they made the device and just never tested with a usb-c to usb-c cable. "It works on my machine (which is too old to have usb-c ports because we don't buy macbooks for hardware designers)!"
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  I have a retro games portable that behaves the same way.
- numpad0 4y ago
  No, it’s the peripheral device. There were initial confusions among bootleg/hacky manufacturers such as: - whether CC pins are to be handled by the cable or by the device, - whether added pins are for insertion detection or for protocol use by the host, - which pins are to be pulled down or left NC for charging, - whether USB-C is meant to be a “mobile” connector, or a replacement for the USB-A connector, or how soon the replacement is to occur. As the result, there were some devices that has a USB-C input but only works with an A to C cable.
yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
Always, or did it just break the ability to flip it upside-down?
- zlsa 4y ago
  If the 5.1k pull-down resistors are missing on the device side, it will not charge from a USB-C wall brick, laptop, etc. in either orientation, but it will work fine when charging from a USB-A outlet with a USB-A to USB-C cable. This is because USB-C outlets are not permitted to provide any power until they detect the presence of a "legacy" device that just wants 5v (as signaled by the pull-down resistors on the device).
Foobar8568 4y ago
Ducky keyboards are the same...
wlesieutre 4y ago
I have a USB recharged LED lantern with the same problem
zlsa 4y ago
This is a super common f*ckup in a truly ridiculous number of devices. It's so common that somebody published a PCB design to retrofit noncompliant devices to make them work: https://github.com/ide/usb-c-to-c-power-mod https://github.com/ide/usb-c-to-c-power-mod
- Narushia 4y ago
  Huh, TIL. My phone, gamepad, and headphones charge just fine with a C-to-C cable. I guess I’m glad to have somehow managed to avoid devices with that fuckup…
  - saiya-jin 4y ago
    Offical cables to good devices, or reputable expensive brand vs ulta cheap nonames with logos one simply can't trust. Never had issue with c-c cables neither, but I use tiny anker 65w charger and official samsung phone c-c cable (so getting ultra fast phone charging or whatever is the proper name), but its true that if I had to supply 3-4 locations with all necessary and convenient set of chargers and cables that would cost quite a bit. It really is one of those 'you get what you pay for', unfortunately very few people know this and I learned most of this here on HN too
clumsysmurf 4y ago
I hate USB-C connectors. All my phones have had the same issue: USB-C connector busts and you can't insert the cable any more. I use high quality Anker cables, and I keep having to buy new Google Pixels over this. Replacing the USB-C port is around $160.
- delecti 4y ago
  I'll second the "relevant username" sentiment, but without the winky face. I've had phones break in a variety of ways, but the USB-C ports have always kept working.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Username checks out ;) But seriously, yes, they are ridiculously fragile and usually only SMD soldered on, no hole through part to give it some mechanical strength. Very frustrating, I am super careful inserting USB-C connectors and have broken a couple already, fortunately not on anything expensive.
  - clumsysmurf 4y ago
    Do you recommend any kind of port-saver magnetic cable ... something like https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Charging-Charger-Transfer-2018-2021/dp/B0B93VW72C https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Charging-Charger-Transfer-20... but with high speed data?
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      I haven't used anything like that, for me the problem isn't tripping over cables but basically the force required to attach the cable in the first place. I guess a magnetic pigtail would reduce the number of times I need to insert the cable but a regular USB-C extension cable would do just as well for that purpose (and that's what I use right now). That's still not perfect because the 2 cm of plug sticking out of the side of the device is long enough to put substantial leverage on the soldered part inside the device but that seems to be a given. I do try to find the shortest possible plug to minimize that force, but can't find them much shorter than that.
gambiting 4y ago
I was going to say the same thing. I don't understand how that's possible - it's incredibly frustrating.
elzbardico 4y ago
Really, compared to lightning USB-C connector is pure trash. But compared to USB-A I concede it is an improvement.
- genewitch 4y ago
  i always worry about the lightning connector shorting out when it's not plugged in to something.
  - zrail 4y ago
    When they were babies both of my kids happily chewed on lightning cables that were plugged into a charger. They're both still here but all of those cables stopped working shortly thereafter.
  - aix1 4y ago
    "When a Lightning cable is just lying somewhere connected to a charger/computer, but not connected to a device, HiFive limits current on the PWR to a really small value (around 10-15 mA according to my measurements). To enable full current, 0x74 request must be issued by Tristar and processed by HiFive." https://nyansatan.github.io/lightning/ https://nyansatan.github.io/lightning/
  - rubatuga 4y ago
    Woke up with a lightning connector burning into my back, was very uncomfortable
cesarb 4y ago
The way USB-C works with adapters to legacy USB (USB-A and USB-B) is brilliant. Unlike in USB-C, in legacy USB the power roles are fixed: the USB-A socket and USB-B plug provide power (source), the USB-A plug and USB-B socket receive power (sink). A USB-C to legacy adapter always has a USB-C plug (never a USB-C socket), and one of these four legacy alternatives. If the legacy end of the cable is one which receives power (USB-A plug or USB-B socket), the USB-C end has a pull-up resistor to that power on the configuration pins, indicating to the USB-C device that this cable provides power; if the legacy end of the cable is one which provides power (USB-A socket or USB-B plug), the USB-C end has a pull-down resistor to ground on the configuration pins, indicating to the USB-C device that this cable requests power. The USB-C device only connects its power output to the socket when it sees that pull-down resistor, so the power supplies will not be shorted together if the cable always provides power to it. And the only thing necessary for an adapter, or for an USB-C device which only receives power, is a pair of resistors. And this explains your scenario: in the USB-A plug to USB-C plug case, the cable always provides power on the USB-C plug; in the USB-C to USB-C plug case, the device on the other end will only provide power when it sees the pull-down to ground, which should be provided by the device, and in your case is probably missing.

karmakaze 4y ago

This was far more interesting than expected. Title more appropriately "illegal and/or useful". This talks about power. I'd also like to read one about all the possible data and video usages and gotchas.

blacksmith_tb 4y ago
And likely not "illegal" (housefires notwithstanding...) but just in violation of spec (which is great when it scratches your itch, but obnoxious when some combo of device and cable won't do what you expect).
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  Eh, that's within the way the word is used; giving your CPU an illegal instruction won't call the cops, but it will crash your software.

ChuckMcM 4y ago

This is a great discussion of all the ambiguity that has been added to the USB spec along the way and how that ambiguity can bite you. I'm fairly convinced at this late stage that the IETF motto of "precise in what you send, flexible in what you receive" is basically evil. When standards work around the non-compliance of clients in creative ways (like HTTP browsers did, A LOT) they become "well it isn't in the standard but if you don't do this you'll break a lot of things out in the field" problems. That resistance to breaking existing clients is understandable, but ultimately it is a trap (in my opinion) that results in both security issues and safety issues. It would be interesting to have a USB 4.x spec that was both explicit in all the behaviors AND had explicit tests for and responses to non-compliant stuff. I don't think the IEEE or anyone else for that matter has the stones to try the experiment though.

jzwinck 4y ago
If IEEE does that, some manufacturers will just ignore it. Sure they may have to write weasel words like "USB compatible but not USB authorized" on their products, but they'll dominate the market by allowing people to use the largest variety of devices.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  The simplest practical way around that (imho) is to license the name for the 4.x standard and be proactive in taking action against anyone who uses the name or logo if their cables or ports aren't compliant. Of course, depending on the jurisdiction who can actually bring claims, and how damages can be calculated, vary greatly. I, for one, wouldn't buy "USB compatible but not USB authorized" cables if it meant being secure in knowing that the damned cable will actually work. Less tech savvy people might not, but there's also people who can be tricked into buying blinker fluid for their cars. There's gotta be a happy medium somewhere.
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    > is to license the name for the 4.x standard Oh, while you are at it, they will also need names that don't keep changing and don't have synonyms. The 4.x names are ok for reference in a standard, but they are useless for consumer communication.

gumby 4y ago

This is part of a hackaday series on USB C. Other posts: https://hackaday.com/series_of_posts/all-about-usb-c/ https://hackaday.com/series_of_posts/all-about-usb-c/

hoosieree 4y ago

Ah, this takes me back to that time I had to add a USB-2.0 adapter inline with an all USB-C signal chain in order for the operating system to recognize the device. And that charger I have which is USB-C but only works in one orientation. And those expensive OpenFlow/P4 compatible switches in the datacenter whose management interface is serial (as in RS-232), but the form factor of the connector is USB-mini.

LarryMullins 4y ago
I think there must be something fundamentally wrong with many of the USB-C / USB 2.0 adapters on the market. I've burned out 10 of them already, using them to connect my old trusty mouse (5V, 100mA). The mouse works fine (20 years after I bought it!) but the adapters only last a few months at most before they start intermittently disconnecting, eventually failing completely. I'm at my wits end with this because there is no mouse on the market today with the same form and button layout.
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  > before they start intermittently disconnecting, eventually failing completely My phone had this problem. I went through several cheap USB cables over the course of a year, before finally realizing it's not the cables that were the issue (other than being cheap and easy to deform): the issue was caused by lint accumulated in the USB port. After scraping it out with a needle the issue went away. The lint and dirt will accumulate over time, and get compacted in the port by the charging cable, making it very hard to spot, as it looks just like the back wall of the port would. Cheap USB cables will easily deform after being plugged a couple times, making them much easier to pull out - but this alone will not make the connection intermittent, even though it feels that way if you're not aware of the lint problem.

kennywinker 4y ago

I had a recent brush with the chaos of USB-C. A device I built was using what I assumed was a "standard" 6-pin usb port (https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/USB-Connectors_Korean-Hroparts-Elec-TYPE-C-31-M-17_C283540.html https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/USB-Connectors_Korean-Hr...) - but it wouldn't work with the cheap usb-c cables I had bought for it. After a bunch of time with a continuity tester and ultimately ripping one of the cables apart, it turns out the it was a 6pin cable, but it had a different 6 pins connected. One of them was "left handed" while the other was "right handed". Maddening. To help with this in the future, I recently ordered a run of these usb cable testers from jlcpcb with some friends - https://github.com/alvarop/usb_c_cable_tester https://github.com/alvarop/usb_c_cable_tester - totally worth it to never have to guess about a cable again. (for the curious, a technical description of what was happening: the cable had pins A1, A4, A5, B1, B4, and B5 all connected. The port had pins A12, A9, A8, B12, B9, and B8 connected - If you look at this in a pin diagram like the one on this page https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/01/usb-3-1-and-type-c-the-only-stuff-at-ces-that-everyone-is-going-to-use/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/01/usb-3-1-and-type-c-t... you can see that no matter which way around you put it in the port you'll never get contact)

zzo38computer 4y ago

USB is really terrible for many reasons. This article describes some of them, but it is worse than that. (I knew USB was bad; I did not know it was quite that bad!!) I think for charging, there should be a charging only port, and for data, having separate ports which you can tell which physical port is in use, and perhaps RS-232 or MIDI would be good, than USB which is no good.

RockRobotRock 4y ago
USB is the worst connection standard, except for all the other ones.

ec109685 4y ago

I get what the EU is aiming for by banning lightening connectors, but it would be nice if it was coupled with improvements to USB-C.

curiousgal 4y ago
This is why I don't think that would change anything. I am more that certain Apple would abuse the standard to force the users to only buy its cables. Edit: I know complaining about downvotes only solicits more but I am genuinely curious why two people thought this comment was so irrelevant to the discussion that they downvoted it. Only explanation is that they believe that Apple could do no wrong. Lol
- scarface74 4y ago
  Yes because it’s not like Apple already has been shipping iOS based devices that support USB C that can be used with any USB C cable and supports all the relevant standards including video over USB C. Also, Apple will be forcing all Mac apps to go through the Mac App Store any day now. Since it introduced the Mac App Store a decade ago.
- elzbardico 4y ago
  Really, the day the iphone gets a USB-C connector will be a sad day to me. I hate that stupid male connector disguised as a female smd mounted in a board.
- vinay427 4y ago
  > I am more that certain Apple would abuse the standard to force the users to only buy its cables. Based on iPhones with Lightning connectors supporting USB C PD charging for years now as well as various iPads with USB C/Thunderbolt connectors supporting many "USB C features" such as docks with HDMI and USB A ports, I'm curious why you are "more than certain" that Apple would change this behavior in the future. Could you care to elaborate?
- dymk 4y ago
  Apple will just ship a phone with no charging port and adopt wireless charging exclusively.

_Microft 4y ago

Have a look at this tool to help find out what 'capabilities' your cables have: https://github.com/alvarop/usb_c_cable_tester https://github.com/alvarop/usb_c_cable_tester It has a number of connectors, the cable gets plugged into the board with both ends and labelled LEDs will light up for wires that are connected. It runs off a coin cell, no microcontroller, no single-board computer, no nothing. Just a power source, LEDs and connectors. From what I remember, the creator said that the repo should contain everything required to have some manufactured by JLCPCB (that's a large Chinese PCB prototyping service that also populates boards with components if you like).

sschueller 4y ago
Yes, you can get 5 boards assembled for around USD 44.- https://github.com/alvarop/usb_c_cable_tester/blob/main/ORDERING.md https://github.com/alvarop/usb_c_cable_tester/blob/main/ORDE...
kps 4y ago
I still have my RS232 version, but I thought those days were over.

whatever1 4y ago

Is there any certification body that also has a list of certified usb products ? I literally cannot predict if a cable can charge, transfer data slowly, fast or if it will fry my device. I mostly want a *hard requirement for a specs label ON THE CABLE*. How else am I supposed to know what they are for? Even Apple is not labeling their cables. Same physical appearance and no labeling is recipe for disaster

googlryas 4y ago
What ever happened to "Benson from Google", who was probably the closest thing to a certifying body that the public could trust.
- theshrike79 4y ago
  If it's the same person I'm thinking of, most of the content disappeared with Google Wave.
- ranger207 4y ago
  He's still active on /r/usbCHardware as /u/laughingMan11
randy408 4y ago
https://www.usb.org/products https://www.usb.org/products
- whatever1 4y ago
  That is very helpful thanks!
kmlx 4y ago
i solved this by buying all my usb c cables directly from apple. they work great with all of my devices.

puzzlingcaptcha 4y ago

About USB-C to barrel plug connectors: I think people generally use a "PD decoy" board with that setup, which does Power Delivery negotiation (usually based on the cheap IP2721 chip but you can get a fancier one from ST) with a PD-capable power brick. This way you can easily get 5/9/12/15/20V out of a single decent quality GaN charger. Now obviously you want to be careful with where you plug it in but it's still quite convenient. A more advanced way to do this is use an arduino board that can negotiate arbitrary voltage in 20mV steps with a PPS-compliant charger, effectively giving you a tiny lab power supply (although you can't get under 3.3V and the chargers are still a bit pricy).

chaz6 4y ago
I am disappointed that the Anker 715 (Nano II 65W) cannot do 12V with PD, but for some reason it is not one of the standard PD voltages. I think it is capable of 12V with PPS, but I am not sure if the decoy cables support it. If you specifically need 12V with PD, make sure to check if your charger supports it.

layer8 4y ago

At this point, they should rename it to MSB – Multiversal Serial Bus.

cactusplant7374 4y ago

Holy shit. I do have to flip my Type C extension cable sometimes. This sort explains what is happening. I would like to have really long cables (12ft+). That way I don’t need to bring a bulky extension cord with me when traveling. Has anyone found a way to make this work?

foepys 4y ago
I personally have multiple 3m (~10ft) USB-C cables. There are also 4m (~13ft) and more cables available but they might not support the latest Power Delivery standard.

joebergeron 4y ago

Do standards organizations tend to release/sell/provide any sort of “test harness” that vendors can use to validate their implementations against? Some coworkers and I recently authored an open API standard to be implemented by external vendors, and the test harness we released alongside it was the single most valuable tool we could possibly have provided to speed partner integrations/catch problems early.

carabiner 4y ago

I guarantee that within 3 years, a "USB-lite" will be announced with minimal features in an attempt to solve this mess. Yay, now you have n standards.

Animats 4y ago

The USB crowd has managed to replicate the decades old problem with DB-25 RS-232 cables. I once worked in a data center where there was a rule that all cables over 1 foot long must have all wires and be 1:1. Any "adapters" were very short, labelled cables. USB-C is now there.

wernercd 4y ago
Everything old is new again.

devwastaken 4y ago

On top of bad usb-C, the chips used for Ethernet and HDMI are also overwhelmingly poor. Every adapter overheats, so hot you cannot touch it, even with a full metal case. We need a standards body to ban junk products designed to be unsafe and/or destroy your devices.

jasonhansel 4y ago

For a while, I've been using a USB-C female to USB-A male adapter to connect my MagSafe charger to various old-school USB wall chargers. Somewhat surprisingly, this works perfectly; the charging speed is probably slower but I haven't noticed. That said, I'm guessing this violates some specification or other. Ah, well, no explosions yet.

matthewfcarlson 4y ago

I know I’m biased towards hackaday but I think this series is one of the better ones they’ve ever done. The writing is tight and clear. You can tell Arya is an expert in the area.

KirillPanov 4y ago

> if your data blocker cable has a CC wire (as it should, if you want to have data transfer) Is this a typo? The whole point of a "data blocker" cable is to not have data transfer.

silverpepsi 4y ago

I wish USB would just go away. Even the most basic possible use cases just fundamentally don't work, and are becoming worse each year. At least 10-15 years ago I was trying to copy data from one USB harddrive to another. I was already using my ports so I tried to do it through a hub. This was in the day where machines still had 3-4 ports, maybe even 5. But after my webcam and mouse, I was full. I was poor and broke then and always had cheapskate hubs. It would always work but you'd have weird errors or crashes and finally one drive would stop responding midway through a 6 hour operation. Now 2022 with a decent job I said it's time to properly experience USB and splurged on a well-known $100+ one. Laptops in 2022 now have ONLY ONE USB PORT, both my Macbook and Huawei. The second port is for power. And? .... Yeah USB hubs don't work at all. Same crap. I was blaming my Xiaomi phone & Windows 10 for the fact I can't back up my photos .....for months. Nope it was the gdamn USB hub. And it's ALWAYS 100% OF THE TIME weird issues that appear in the middle of long operations inconsistently. The hardware involved never matters, Mac, Windows, cheap hub, fancy hub.....all TRASH

skunkworker 4y ago
If you have TB3 and a thunderbolt dock you can get much more consistent results. I’ve been using a caldigit TS3 for almost 3 years now on a 2019 MBP with little to no issues, it remembers my monitors, I have a dac running out and lots of ports. Thunderbolt > USB-C any day.
- sgjohnson 4y ago
  Thunderbolt = $$$$, though. It’s prohibitively expensive for the average user’s use case.
mlindner 4y ago
Too late, European law has mandated it's use, so now it's never going away. This will be something we can blame Europe for long into the future.
- blackbear_ 4y ago
  I don't understand this line of thinking. The purpose of those regulations is to reduce e-waste. How is the EU's fault if some companies produce cheap shit that doesn't work very well? And do you really think things would get better without those rules?

smusamashah 4y ago

Is there a device to test these cables? There should be one if there isn't already. Will be useful for cable makers too.

LeanderK 4y ago

One thing I have always wondered about USB-C. Why is the OS not communicating more information about your cable? As I understood it, the type of cable is visible to the OS, so why does it not help to troubleshoot the problem?

jxdxbx 4y ago

I have at least 2 USB C devices (a little Android-based retro game thing, and headband/headphones I use for background noise while sleeping) that do not charge off the USB C charger I use for everything else (which, is 60 watts since I want to to charge everything). Drives me crazy. Whole point of USB C is to avoid shit like that. I'd rather shit devices still come with micro USB so at least I know they need an old charger.