3 ms·

The system is new and there are some instances of abuse, that doesn't mean it's a bad system. To me the idea in the US where you should remain alive and suffer

by tensor 4y ago

The system is new and there are some instances of abuse, that doesn't mean it's a bad system. To me the idea in the US where you should remain alive and suffer immensely because you are poor and can't afford any help is far far less humane. I don't even consider the US a first world country due to how barbaric it's medical system is, not to mention it's outright slavery based prison system.

phpisthebest 4y ago
>>remain alive and suffer immensely because you are poor and can't afford any help is far far less humane. Where exactly does that happen? The biggest complaint (rightly) about the US health system is the middle class is one accident, or health crisis away from bankruptcy. I am not aware of anyone that is "suffering immensely because they are poor". There are plenty of avenues to get care even if you can not afford it in the US.
- tensor 4y ago
  Among many others, it's easy to point out one simple example. I've talked to many many many many americans who are reluctant to even go to a dr for a simple checkup because they cannot afford it. That is barbaric, that you even have to consider your health vs your money. In most first world countries you can go to the dr any time for free.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    >That is barbaric, that you even have to consider your health vs your money. Why is health care any different from Food, Shelter, Transportation, or any other thing we require but have to pay for in the market? Should government take over all grocery stores and provide you with "free" food as well? The idea that it is barbaric to charge for healthcare does not pass even a first pass logic test. To believe that you must reject the very idea of capitalism and market based economics, and if that is your position well history has a lot of lessons for you... >I've talked to many many many many americans who are reluctant to even go to a dr for a simple checkup because they cannot afford it. There are many reasons to forego that, I suspect the cost is not the only reasons. How many of them have even looked into what the price would be to go? I bet very few have taken even the first steps to find out. Cost is an easy scape goat >In most first world countries you can go to the dr any time for free. It is far far far far from free, taxpayer funded is not free. Most of those nations also look to the US protect the world, See the latest in UKR, while the US is spending billions there I do not see the EU, Candada or any other nation matching our defense contribution, either to UKR or NATO, or anywhere else. personally I would support moving to more of a medicare for all if (and only if) we go in to full isolationism and let the EU defend themselves that is with out getting into all the problems with EU, UK, or Canada Health systems (wait time, rationing, etc). Lots of rich people come to the US from those nations for care for a reason
    - quags 4y ago
      If we are comparing food - I can walk into food stores, easily compare prices , and find substitutes. Let’s also remember there are subsidies for farming and other food products and some states have no tax on food specifically. Now if I walked into a food store and could get anything but would get a random bill where the price of a single tomato ended up being $100 6 months later and it only made sense to have some third party insurance to pay the bulk of food costs then you have a comparison. Medical has no comparison in the US. The system is not good , insurance adds limited value to the process and getting prices to easily shop around is not possible. Im not looking for a full take over of the medical system in the US but having it function like a regular market is ideal.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        >> Medical has no comparison in the US. The system is not good , First off you have confused medical insurance system with medical care. healthcare in the US is the best. How we pay for that healthcare, namely employer led "comprehensive" insurance plan is TERRIBLE So lets solve for that, and the solution to that is NOT government taking over the entire thing >>I can walk into food stores, easily compare prices , and find substitutes. I would absolutely love is the healthcare industry moved away from the employer led "comprehensive" insurance plans to a more free market solution
    - dns_snek 4y ago
      > Why is health care any different from Food, Shelter, Transportation, or any other thing we require but have to pay for in the market? It's not. Most or all first world countries have some form of social net that attempts to ensure people don't go hungry. Homeless shelters exist and many of us in Europe agree that governments should do even more to provide a better safety net and help people get back on their feet. > The idea that it is barbaric to charge for healthcare does not pass even a first pass logic test. I don't think anyone implied that it's barbaric to charge for healthcare. What's barbaric is people being denied preventative care because they're unemployed or don't have hundreds of dollars to go to the doctor. > It is far far far far from free, taxpayer funded is not free. Of course the visit is free. Universal healthcare as a service costs money to fund, but you're not charged to use the service. > Most of those nations also look to the US protect the world You should look up the map of US military bases and think critically about what the US is getting in return - the ability to respond to threats originating almost anywhere in the world, for one. > personally I would support moving to more of a medicare for all if (and only if) we go in to full isolationism and let the EU defend themselves Good news - you don't need to spend more as you're already outspending every country that has universal healthcare by around a factor of 2. Unsurprisingly, the supposed "free market" healthcare system isn't very efficient in practice. > that is with out getting into all the problems with EU, UK, or Canada Health systems (wait time, rationing, etc). Lots of rich people come to the US from those nations for care for a reason These healthcare systems aren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but at least they're fair. Pointing your finger at queues and wait times is easy when you conveniently ignore basic needs of a large proportion of the population. As an outsider looking in, the tone-deaf "fuck you, I've got mine" attitude is what I find barbaric about the US healthcare system. It reinforces the fact that the value of human life is exclusively measured in US dollars. Either you're wealthy enough to pay or you deserve to go without healthcare (and possibly die) as a matter of personal failure rather than a systemic one.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    >I've talked to many many many many americans who are reluctant to even go to a dr for a simple checkup because they cannot afford it. Your comment is dishonest and misleading. The demographics who routinely go without annually physicals and other basic care are not poor people. They are gainfully employed individuals or childless couples on high deductible plans. These people can't hope to hit their deductible within a year from normal preventative care alone so they pay full price for services like annual physicals. Those that are young and generally healthy frequently opt to skip such visits and keep the money because paying someone in white coat hundreds for the privilege of being told they are generally healthy but could stand to use a few pounds is an absolute crap value for money no matter how you look at it. If this seems like a perverse incentive to avoid preventative care that's because it is. HDHP plans are terrible for everyone who's annual healthcare spend is low because they create this incentive. Ironically, with the myriad of state programs people suffering from financial hardship are actually better provided for in many cases. If they want an annual physical they're out a copay, possibly a discounted one.
  - hackeraccount 4y ago
    The U.S. has a public system that provides healthcare to the poor (Medicaid) , the old (Medicare), to Veterans (Tricare). It provides subsidized private health care (ACA) and subsidizes private insurance for people who buy it. None of those systems are perfect. There are some eligible people who don't enroll. There are certainly people who find the amount of money that they would need to spend to be un-affordable. I don't have a problem with pointing that out. Or even suggesting better ways. There's a point though when the desire for whatever system a person thinks is better is so compelling that they start describing the current system as some sort of free market nature red in tooth and claw libertarian paradise that I cannot reconcile with reality.
  - imtringued 4y ago
    >I've talked to many many many many americans who are reluctant to even go to a dr for a simple checkup because they cannot afford it. Ok, so because they cannot afford the checkup, they should instead kill themselves because they are poor?

by tensor 4y ago

phpisthebest 4y ago

>>remain alive and suffer immensely because you are poor and can't afford any help is far far less humane. Where exactly does that happen? The biggest complaint (rightly) about the US health system is the middle class is one accident, or health crisis away from bankruptcy. I am not aware of anyone that is "suffering immensely because they are poor". There are plenty of avenues to get care even if you can not afford it in the US.

tensor 4y ago
Among many others, it's easy to point out one simple example. I've talked to many many many many americans who are reluctant to even go to a dr for a simple checkup because they cannot afford it. That is barbaric, that you even have to consider your health vs your money. In most first world countries you can go to the dr any time for free.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >That is barbaric, that you even have to consider your health vs your money. Why is health care any different from Food, Shelter, Transportation, or any other thing we require but have to pay for in the market? Should government take over all grocery stores and provide you with "free" food as well? The idea that it is barbaric to charge for healthcare does not pass even a first pass logic test. To believe that you must reject the very idea of capitalism and market based economics, and if that is your position well history has a lot of lessons for you... >I've talked to many many many many americans who are reluctant to even go to a dr for a simple checkup because they cannot afford it. There are many reasons to forego that, I suspect the cost is not the only reasons. How many of them have even looked into what the price would be to go? I bet very few have taken even the first steps to find out. Cost is an easy scape goat >In most first world countries you can go to the dr any time for free. It is far far far far from free, taxpayer funded is not free. Most of those nations also look to the US protect the world, See the latest in UKR, while the US is spending billions there I do not see the EU, Candada or any other nation matching our defense contribution, either to UKR or NATO, or anywhere else. personally I would support moving to more of a medicare for all if (and only if) we go in to full isolationism and let the EU defend themselves that is with out getting into all the problems with EU, UK, or Canada Health systems (wait time, rationing, etc). Lots of rich people come to the US from those nations for care for a reason
  - quags 4y ago
    If we are comparing food - I can walk into food stores, easily compare prices , and find substitutes. Let’s also remember there are subsidies for farming and other food products and some states have no tax on food specifically. Now if I walked into a food store and could get anything but would get a random bill where the price of a single tomato ended up being $100 6 months later and it only made sense to have some third party insurance to pay the bulk of food costs then you have a comparison. Medical has no comparison in the US. The system is not good , insurance adds limited value to the process and getting prices to easily shop around is not possible. Im not looking for a full take over of the medical system in the US but having it function like a regular market is ideal.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      >> Medical has no comparison in the US. The system is not good , First off you have confused medical insurance system with medical care. healthcare in the US is the best. How we pay for that healthcare, namely employer led "comprehensive" insurance plan is TERRIBLE So lets solve for that, and the solution to that is NOT government taking over the entire thing >>I can walk into food stores, easily compare prices , and find substitutes. I would absolutely love is the healthcare industry moved away from the employer led "comprehensive" insurance plans to a more free market solution
  - dns_snek 4y ago
    > Why is health care any different from Food, Shelter, Transportation, or any other thing we require but have to pay for in the market? It's not. Most or all first world countries have some form of social net that attempts to ensure people don't go hungry. Homeless shelters exist and many of us in Europe agree that governments should do even more to provide a better safety net and help people get back on their feet. > The idea that it is barbaric to charge for healthcare does not pass even a first pass logic test. I don't think anyone implied that it's barbaric to charge for healthcare. What's barbaric is people being denied preventative care because they're unemployed or don't have hundreds of dollars to go to the doctor. > It is far far far far from free, taxpayer funded is not free. Of course the visit is free. Universal healthcare as a service costs money to fund, but you're not charged to use the service. > Most of those nations also look to the US protect the world You should look up the map of US military bases and think critically about what the US is getting in return - the ability to respond to threats originating almost anywhere in the world, for one. > personally I would support moving to more of a medicare for all if (and only if) we go in to full isolationism and let the EU defend themselves Good news - you don't need to spend more as you're already outspending every country that has universal healthcare by around a factor of 2. Unsurprisingly, the supposed "free market" healthcare system isn't very efficient in practice. > that is with out getting into all the problems with EU, UK, or Canada Health systems (wait time, rationing, etc). Lots of rich people come to the US from those nations for care for a reason These healthcare systems aren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but at least they're fair. Pointing your finger at queues and wait times is easy when you conveniently ignore basic needs of a large proportion of the population. As an outsider looking in, the tone-deaf "fuck you, I've got mine" attitude is what I find barbaric about the US healthcare system. It reinforces the fact that the value of human life is exclusively measured in US dollars. Either you're wealthy enough to pay or you deserve to go without healthcare (and possibly die) as a matter of personal failure rather than a systemic one.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  >I've talked to many many many many americans who are reluctant to even go to a dr for a simple checkup because they cannot afford it. Your comment is dishonest and misleading. The demographics who routinely go without annually physicals and other basic care are not poor people. They are gainfully employed individuals or childless couples on high deductible plans. These people can't hope to hit their deductible within a year from normal preventative care alone so they pay full price for services like annual physicals. Those that are young and generally healthy frequently opt to skip such visits and keep the money because paying someone in white coat hundreds for the privilege of being told they are generally healthy but could stand to use a few pounds is an absolute crap value for money no matter how you look at it. If this seems like a perverse incentive to avoid preventative care that's because it is. HDHP plans are terrible for everyone who's annual healthcare spend is low because they create this incentive. Ironically, with the myriad of state programs people suffering from financial hardship are actually better provided for in many cases. If they want an annual physical they're out a copay, possibly a discounted one.
- hackeraccount 4y ago
  The U.S. has a public system that provides healthcare to the poor (Medicaid) , the old (Medicare), to Veterans (Tricare). It provides subsidized private health care (ACA) and subsidizes private insurance for people who buy it. None of those systems are perfect. There are some eligible people who don't enroll. There are certainly people who find the amount of money that they would need to spend to be un-affordable. I don't have a problem with pointing that out. Or even suggesting better ways. There's a point though when the desire for whatever system a person thinks is better is so compelling that they start describing the current system as some sort of free market nature red in tooth and claw libertarian paradise that I cannot reconcile with reality.
- imtringued 4y ago
  >I've talked to many many many many americans who are reluctant to even go to a dr for a simple checkup because they cannot afford it. Ok, so because they cannot afford the checkup, they should instead kill themselves because they are poor?